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Our sales lady called a few minutes ago. She said the service manager got the staff together to tell them to warn their customers to NOT use Mobil 1. The sheet specifically named Mobil 1. The only details that she read said that Toyo synthetic 0-20w had special additives that Mobil 1 did not. I told her I use Amsoil 0-20w in all our vehicles and she said that Mobil 1 was the only brand listed. She did say that if Toyota 0-20w synthetic wasn't available, petroleum 5-20w (no brand specified) could be used but it must be changed back at the next interval.
I asked her if it was a TSB and she said it was just a "can I" question and answer sheet.
What's up with this? Can anyone find any specifi details. I am 134 miles from our dealer or I would stop by and get a copy of the sheet.

Wayne: Any details on this? It is a really sketchy sounding warning as it specified Mobil One.

It was for most models but NOT including the Highlander and Tacoma.

Hi Mike;

I heard that too from my Toyota dealer and it is very similar to what Honda has claimed in the past except Honda was only referring to the first oil change.

It appears that their 0W20 is also not fully synthetic but just a blend that is formulated specifically to better "bake" the engine for the first 5K.

Cheers;

I just called the Mobil 1 tech line and they had not heard about this. He said they would "look into it."

Sounds to me like Exxon/Mobil just had a falling out with Yota.

Hi Jeff:

___They never had an "in" with Toyota to begin with... This is the first year Toyota is actively authorizing 0W-20...

___Mike, I have an E-mail in. I wish I had known about this yesterday as there was an individual from Toyota's tech College at the Lexus HS 250h short lead that may have been able to answer that very question.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Mike:

___As usual, Toyota got back to me in record time... Unfortunately, the ranking senior Product Communications Specialist for Toyota USA did not find a single prohibitive statement regarding Mobil1 0W-20 for the Prius-III.
I did not find a TSB or release not recommending Mobil1 0W-20 to be used in the 2010 Toyota Prius.

Here's the recommendation from the 2010 Prius Owner's Manual.

Engine oil selection

“Toyota Genuine Motor Oil” is used in your Toyota vehicle. Use Toyota approved “Toyota Genuine Motor Oil” or equivalent to satisfy the following grade and viscosity.

Oil grade: ILSAC multigrade engine oil Recommended viscosity: SAE 0W-20 SAE 0W-20 is the best choice for good fuel economy and good starting in cold weather. If SAE 0W-20 is not available, SAE 5W-20 may be used. However, it must be replaced with SAE 0W-20 at the next oil change. The 0W portion of the oil viscosity rating indicates the characteristic of the oil which allows cold startability.

Oils with a lower value before the W allow for easier starting of the engine in cold weather. The 20 in 0W-20 indicates the oil viscosity when the oil is at its operating temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions.

I am going to dig around some more. If I find anything, I will forward it to you.

Bill Kwong
Product Communications Specialist
___If there is a TSB out there, Bill will find it. I suspect your dealership is pulling a fast one and will charge you more for their “Toyota” 0W-20 but that remains to be seen.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

The service manager dug up the info today and read it to me on the phone.
This came from: Jeff Noise,Technical Service and training Manager for the Chicago Region.

None of this sounds right.

I don't have a clue, but I know on the subaru forums everyone says to stay away from Mobil 1. They say it'll give you spun bearings, whatever that means.

The service manager dug up the info today and read it to me on the phone.
This came from: Jeff Noise,Technical Service and training Manager for the Chicago Region.

Is Jeff Noise the source of this document, or did he merely cite it?

It came from him. His last name is actually Noyse.

"Spun bearings"

The main bearing inserts in most engines are simple semicircular pieces of material that go between the bearing caps and engine block and the crankshaft. Similar bearings are between the crankshaft journals and the connecting rod big ends. The surface is a babbit material that is fairly soft.

These bearings are held in place by a small tab that protrudes from the bearing shell and is locked into a wedge shaped slot in either the bearing cap or the engine block. One half in the cap, the other half in the block.

When subjected to enough friction the tab fails and the bearing rotates and your engine disintegrates.

Either it throws a rod or starts knocking. Either way its death for that engine.

regards
gary

WTF. Nothing out of the blue like that should be believed until
someone supplies a good REASON.
.
_H*

Hi Al:

___Bill Kwong is trying to get a hold of Mr. Noyse to find out what this is all about as well?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Mike:

___Sorry I have been away the past few as there was some personal business I needed to attend too...

___I received the details from Bill yesterday.
Hi Wayne,

There was a letter and a brief Q&A that went out to the regions and dealers from Corp Tech Dept. This is probably what you saw:

Q: I have noticed that there are other 0W-20 oils in the marketplace such as Mobil 1 – can I use Mobil 1 for my Toyota?
A: Genuine Toyota Motor Oil 0W-20 utilizes a Toyota specific additive package and is not interchangeable with other synthetic oils of the same weight.

That Q&A is not very clear. Does it mean not to use Mobil 1 or don't mix it. Anyway, I was told by the Tech Dept that you can use Mobil 1 and you can mix them. The Q&A was designed to identify that there is a difference between Mobil 1 and Toyota Genuine 0W-20. They are both Group 4 PAO oils but the Toyota stuff have some special additives that further reduce friction for even more mileage advantage (about 1%).

So, the question was designed to say that Mobil 1 is not exactly the same as Genuine Toyota Motor Oil 0W-20. It's OK to use Mobil 1 0W-20 when GTMO is not available.

Bill Kwong
Product Communications Specialist
Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc.
___It appears we may have a new 0W-20 king in town? If anyone is privy to Toyota’s 0W-20 specs, please pass on the Kinematic Viscosity numbers to us please. I know Honda was working on its own formulation back in Japan about a year ago but this is news to me ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I'm due for an oil change and I also need to get one of my smart key fobs replaced. Hmm, looks like I may need to pick up a few quarts of their 0W 20 while I'm there.

I don't believe it's a pure syn yet!

One of the questions on the q & a sheet:

Q: I have a waste oil burner heater that I use for heating of my shop area, does Toyota 0W-20 synthetic affect the operation of these burners?

A:Before there is any affect of the burner's operation, the concentration of synthetic would have to exceed 50% and that won't happen for at least a few years. When it does happen, please consult your waste oil burner manufacturer for specifics on how tho continue to use the device with synthetic oil

Did anyone ever figure out exactly why the Mobil 1 0W-20 is not recommended in the 2010 Toyota Prius? I'm getting ready to change the oil for the first time in my new 2010 Toyota Prius and I want to go with the Mobil 1 0W-20. I have always used Mobil 1 in all of my vehicles.

It was a misguided directive. I would use the Mobil 1. I put Amsoil in ours.

I may get flamed, but: why is it so important to use Mobil 1, even in the face of possible problems with this oil? Also, why is there the assumption that a synthetic is superior? I'm not meaing the latter question rhetorically: is there some advantage? Is it slipperier? If the main advantage is longevity, is that a "moot" advantage if you're sticking to the recommended service interval?

Personally, and this is with Honda, but the factors are similar: there is a Honda 0W20 oil available, and that's what I get, for several reasons:

1. Convenience: I'm likely going to be at the dealer's parts department getting an oil filter and drain plug washer, so why not get the (Honda) oil as well? The price is close, slightly in favour of the Honda oil, unless you're ordering cases over the internet, with all the incumbent hassles. And even then, I don't think the savings per oil change are that significant.

2. Compatibility: I think it's a safe bet Honda's 0W20 is compatible.

3. Paper trail: Buying what you need for one change, in one go at the dealer's parts department, you have a dated receipt with all the oil change related info, from the same outfit that would be tracking your service records.

Personally, I don't use synthetic oil because I think it will extend the life of the engine. I use it because I can easily run 50% longer change intervals (I could probably run 100% but I like to run somewhat conservatively) thus reducing the amount of oil consumed over the life of the car.

Hi Mendel:

___It is "slipperier" (I love that word :D) as the kinematic viscosity’s are superior for a given weight. Following Brick's lead on longevity. I drive 15K with Mobil1 0W-20. I would never do that on regular 5W-20 Dino.

___There is both a fuel economy and an environmental reason for using it. I would however suggest your source it form somewhere “other” than your local dealer as they will overcharge you to death for using it.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I believe I understand what Mendel is saying and since we're talking about the 3G Prius which like the HCH-II now requires an oil weight of 0W20, the situation is indeed very similar.


Let me put into another perspective:

A bottle of 0W20 Toyota or 0W20 Honda oil costs almost $7 CND at the dealer. The dealer also sells the Mobil 1 0W20 (fully synthetic) for a bit over $13 CND/bottle. Finding the same Mobil 1 0W20 at any other auto parts store is almost impossible and when you do, it is even more expensive than what the dealer charges for it. Crazy is it not?

So... now the last remaining question is:
Will the Toyota 0W20 oil (blend) perform significantly worse than the Mobil 1 0W20?

That remains to be seen, but if you take our community experience with oil analysis on the HCH-II over the last 3 years as a close example then... from a personal standpoint I have no reason to even consider Mobil 1 0W20.

Yes, the Mobil branded being a fully synthetic is academically superior but I am still inclined to generally agree with Mendel. Also, his point in choosing his approach is that he's also building the "good will" and "paper trail" factor with the dealer by perhaps spending a bit more (but like me, I doubt he could find a cheaper alternative anyway).

Of course, paper trail and good will are meaningless if not worthless to some of us, until we needed it.

The way I see it, Mendel's suggestion is similarly sound and in my case, my 2010 Prius will only see the Toyota 0W20 as my HCH-II's seen the Honda branded 0W20.

Cheers;

MSantos

I have never seen Mobil1 synthetic any where near 7.00 a quart let alone the 14.00 you claim.. I have no trouble finding it either. Been using it since 1993 & Wal-Mart always has it. Sometimes I get it at AutoZone like I did last week for 5.65 a quart Wal-Mart Sells it cheaper.

Manuel is in Canada which may change the game a bit vs. what we have available in the US. I usually pay about $6 per quart for my 5W30 (though I'll probably switch to 0W). I haven't paid attention to 0W20 which is much more of "specialty" oil at the moment.

Yeah, you have to keep in mind both the "inflation" factor for Canadian, as well as the different dollar. Of late the CAN & US dollars have been getting closer, but price reaction is still glacial. Also, synthetic Mobil 1 is not readily available in Walmart. The last time I was near one I went in and had a look: their selection of oil looked spotty, sparse and a little dusty. A different store up here I guess.

I've seen some Penzoil (sic?) 0W20, in speciality automotive retailers. It was going for maybe $9.99 per US quart, while Honda's 0W20 is around $8.50 per liter.

Even if the Honda stuff was higher priced, this is a buck or two per oil change.

The slipperyness is one factor that interests me: reducing engine "rolling resistance". I would think proper oil level is as much a factor as brand: an overfilled sump can slow you down significantly.

Hi Mendel:

___Kinematic viscosity is indeed one factor. Another method we use is to fill up your crank case up to the middle of the dip stick, not the top. A little touch here and there helps move your daily averages higher. Anyone that allows an overfill is not paying attention and thus when I go in for an oil change (so it is recorded), I bring in my 0W-20 and ask for the extra half quart back.

___If you allow a standard service department to fill what they think should go in there, many are all but guaranteed to receive 5W-30 and their FE will tank immediately afterwards.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

How much MPG gain can I expect by leaving the 1/2 quart out?

Hi 09 Ranger:

___Remember that 1% doesn't mean much but add up 50 of them and you are talking a serious fuel savings ;)

___Probably .25% or would be my best guess and probably not measurable. I did read a study a few years back that showed a 2 to 3 degree F increase in crankcase temps and that in and of itself is worth it for us.

___The real reason for reducing the total amount of oil consumed is to reduce the possibility of that used oil getting into a garbage dump where it can leech into a local stream or aquifer, river, lake or the ultimate garbage dump, the ocean. Saving that half quart for the next change will cost you one less quart every 2 oil changes and one less quarts chance to go to a place we should be protecting with all of our abilities.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Good info as always Wayne..


Thanks.

I don't see it as "leaving 1/2 a quart out". Your oil is supposed to be somewhere in that range between the two marks, I would think the ideal level is right in the middle. That actually works out pretty good for my vehicle, which spec's 3.2 liter, with filter change:

Last oil change was the first I'd done myself: I put in 3.0 liter, worked out to be about a cup below full. The dealership basically drove me back to doing it myself, they were routinely throwing in 4 liters!

Hi Mendel:

___Because most oil changes go to the top of the stick marks with their cap listed. It is not a given amount but whatever works for your vehicle.

___As it stands per your description, you are close to half a liter over to get to the middle of the marks.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Mendel:

___Because most oil changes go to the top of the stick marks with their cap listed. It is not a given amount but whatever works for your vehicle.

___As it stands per your description, you are close to half a liter over to get to the middle of the marks.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

It's a fine point, and maybe we've beaten it to death, but:

With almost any tolerance, the sweet spot is in the middle, not at one of the extremes. Oil level is a partial exception to the rule: I'd say you want to lean towards the full mark, as oil level will tend to drop during the time interval between changes. But both dealerships and shade tree mechanics seem to have adopted the full level as the place to be. I can see the dealership's perspective: they feel an obligation to give the customer "full measure". Anything less and they likely catch flack about "shortchanging" people, or being negligent. And in my case, with "full" spec'd. at 3.2 liters, they opted to round up to 4 liters. Of course I invariably payed for that fourth liter, and likely continued to pay for it: in reduced fuel efficiency due to crankshaft dipping into the oil excessively.

For all its worth, my dealer gives me back a bottle (80% full) at every oil change. They wrap it in a dealer plastic bag and place it in the trunk, each and every time. At the moment (and for the second time) I have a complete set of bottles which I plan to use on my next oil change :D Its like I get free oil at every 4-5 changes.

For those who get it done at the dealer, I would say, speak to the service adviser and request that they place the leftover 0W20 oil in the trunk. This will automatically mean: "Do not overfill... I wont be upset if you do not to fill it all the way up... I know it takes less than 4L... Stay honest and keep me happy or you wont see me again next time".

Cheers;

MSantos

Very good idea, MSantos. I failed to do that on my last oil change and all 4qts were put in. They had put in the correct amount before and left the difference in my car, I assumed they would continue that behavior. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. :(

Jess

No offense to to the more diligent dealerships that do stop at 3.2 liter (or 3.0), but for the 4.0 liter dealerships: I think their motivation is laziness and profit. Dump it all in, charge the customer, next!

BTW, sorry, I appreciate this is supposed to be a Prius specific oil change discussion.

LOL, it hasn't been that since the 2nd page...

Not to worry.

As an example, my experience with the Prius and the Toyota dealerships has been almost the same as with that from the Honda dealers... I treat them the same way with the same basic expectations.

And now that the 3G Prius requires 0W20 and Toyota also offers its own 0W20, the similarities and experiences between the two brands are even more noticeable... which in the end can be of benefit to many 3G Prius owners looking for options.

Cheers;

MSantos

There is no such thing as Honda or Toyota oil. They just put a label on the bottle.

Of course the dealers will tell you not to buy anything else, just like HP tells you to only buy HP Ink in your printer.

Off topic, but related:

I've been debating between two gas stations, both with non-E gas. I've been alternating and trying to find a difference in mpg between them. This morning I saw a tanker filling the one station - the SAME truck that I've previously seen filling the other station.

I'll stop trying to find a difference, since they're serving me the same gas from the same truck.

There is no such thing as Honda or Toyota oil. They just put a label on the bottle.

Of course the dealers will tell you not to buy anything else, just like HP tells you to only buy HP Ink in your printer.

Indeed...

Correct me if I am wrong, but HP does charge a lot more for their branded Ink than what you would pay for generic no-name brands, right? ;)

In the case of Toyota and Honda, their branded 0W20 is cheaper than the alternative 0W20 oils (the fully synthetic kind like Mobil1, Quaker, Penzoil, etc). This was and remains true in my part of the country at least.

Equally unique about these 0W20 oils is that they are blends as opposed to being fully synthetic. Yes, neither manufacturer actually makes the oil but also to this day many are unable to source an exact technical equivalent under any other brands or "no-brand" packaging. For now it would appear only the dealers carry this oil.

Cheers;

MSantos

Yes the Honda prices aren't bad. They certainly arent' trying to gouge. The only thing that bugs me is that they put a date/mileage sticker in my window that showed 3000 mile/3 month interval. They should know the maintenance minder by now, but who knows, they deal with a lot of less educated people that don't understand a varying cyle oil change

Here in the US the prices vary. I've paid $6.99 per quart when I wasn't looking for a deal, but, at least a few times Autozone has a deal for 5 quarts Mobil1 Synthetic (includes the 0w20 'green' AND Mobil1 filter for $19.95 which is a steal. ($4/qt and includes a normally $10 filter). I have to make sure I don't throw away their ads and coupons.

I've had the guys scratching their heads at checkout because they can't believe it includes the 0W20

Hi Hunter;

Sometimes I just tell folks to do one of two things:

1 - Report a dealer who dismisses the maintenance minder or calls for the silly 3000mile/3 month oil change cycle to your Corporate Honda Office. It also helps immensely to send CC the letter to the Service Department Manager and the dealership's general manager. Be factual and cordial as this usually leaves them defenseless in addition to waking them up really good.

2 - Run away from that dealer as fast as you can and look for another dealer if at all possible. There are good dealers out there as well but there's absolutely no reason why we should keep feeding the bad ones.

Cheers;

MSantos