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Has anyone made a decent comparison as in a list of features performance, specs and cost yet.

It's too bad between EPA tests and ratings and all the test runs by users it not easy to predict the actual for me?

I'd be selling a 2008 Honda Fit and want to better understand if the better FE of the two Hybrids would pay for the premium cost to buy.

Hi Paul:

___The Honda Fit is only one or two vehicles with lower TCO's than the Prius with the HCH-II equivalent or many other compacts and such.

___There is simply no way to make up for the costs and with a hypermiler like yourself behind the Fit's windscreen, the hybrid savings are an even more distant target.

___IIRC, Edmunds or maybe C&D had a YouTube of the both although if you want to look at specs, go to the CleanMPG specification pages as they are laid out exactly the same.

___A few items to consider... Although it takes a lot of work to get great FE from a non-hybrid, the savings are available. The manufacturers have made sure however that you will not approach their hybrids capability due to jacked up Boy-racer gearing in anything comparable.

___In a hybrid, it is simply a lot easier but more frustrating to get the super high numbers. An HCH-II is probably the best all-highway car available in the country but around town, you are screwed. The Prius (once through the warm-up hit in warm temps) is the best in-town car available other than a PHEV/BEV anywhere in the world. A diesel on the highway is about the easiest drive available but in a stop and crawl you are totally screwed. The Fit when ramped up to advanced levels will offer you 80% + of the capability of the HCH-II, Prius-II and Jetta TDI until they are taken to advanced levels themselves in which case they really take off.

___About the Insight-II... Nice car with good utility but it is your Fit with less room and not much more FE capability due to its shorter gearing.

___About the Prius-III... When we get a chance to spend some time behind the wheel for some lengthy runs, you will know. Right now, I have some questions about its capability against the Prius-II in a lot of areas and the 1.8L plus extra 100 + pounds do not help that I felt. A very nice looking car when equipped with the fuel robbing 17" wheels however ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wayne,
I wonder if the Prius III has been bulked up in anticipation of extending it-making a minivan or mini minivan Mazda 5 type vehicle?
Didn't Toyota initially imply that the new Prius was going to be the first of a family of vehicles- a lightweight stripper version of some sort, the III, and some sort of "bigger" vehicle. Maybe something to replace all the small SUVs and midsized crossovers-maybe even to replace/compete with the 200" minivans?

Thanks,
Charlie

Hi Charlie:

___I doubt it... When you look at its extremities, it is really not that much bigger with less than an inch added to total length, width, height and track. The passenger compartment actually lost over 2.5 cu. ft. to the detriment of the back seaters as well.

___The HS250h appears to use the TCH motor with the HSD-II drivetrain all in the Corolla XRS platform as well so making that compact into anything larger does not make too much sense either.

___Neither of those platforms are Camry/Mazda6-Fusion/Accord sized although the Camry and Prius are manufactured on the same line in Japan.

___With the Japanese Toyota Estima hybrid Minivan platform built off a slightly larger Camry Hybrid platform (I think???), I suspect that is where Toyota will go and probably about the same time a Yaris Hybrid arrives. The FE of the Hybrid Minivan will be astounding but I was swore to secrecy as to its actual capability ;) The Avalon is too big a platform to hybridize as evidenced by the poor FE of the 600h even though it is equipped with the monster V8 for some unknown reason???

___All of the above are mostly my own speculation so do not place much faith in it.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

___There is simply no way to make up for the costs and with a hypermiler like yourself behind the Fit's windscreen, the hybrid savings are an even more distant target.


OK how about if I stepped back and looked at less Fit hypermilling effort, for comparison. I mean that is the issue, the amount of work has a price.

___IIRC, Edmunds or maybe C&D had a YouTube of the both although if you want to look at specs, go to the CleanMPG specification pages as they are laid out exactly the same.

I'll read the CleanMPG reviews 1st. I think I'll look at Honda and see if they have a side by side.

Forgot to make it clear one little detail, I'm tired of a few aspects of working my Fit to get the good numbers and I'm trying to determine what it will cost to move into a ride that (with little effort) is as capable and potential to be of way more if I wanted.

The P&G + FAS over extended range ( more than 50miles day in a day out) and dealing with drives that don't like me at the min speed on the Interstate is the real issue. Both are hard to live with.

I have done some recent testing in my Fit. If I limit the freeway speed to 55mph on CC , no A/C and do hypermilling on city streets, 44 to 46mpg is a piece of cake. As that takes little effort, I consider that the base FE for my Fit on my normal commute for comparison to hybrids. What I don't know is what the Insight II or Prius II or III would get under the same conditions? I mean, not even close to able to estimate. Can anyone take a swag at that for me? The rest of the details I can dig out.

16miles Interstate in warm SE FL weather. Lot's of over passes
6 miles of stop and go (traffic lights) with posted 45 speed
3 miles 35mph with stops for stuff not lights now and than.

My MT Sport Fit CEPA is 31mpg so 45 FE is +31%

09 MT Fit Sport is 29mpg and Insight EX II is 41 But if I read right that 41 is a bogus number and way low for anyone trying even just a little as in turning on the ECO mode.

I have not driven either car. I did sit in an Insight II and agree with Wayne, it's a Fit with less room but more money. As Honda skipped some essential option only the LX Insight II, only the $21,300 EX model is usable for me. Cruse control is a must. I hate to say it but like the Fit, that extra $1500 is a good deal when you look at what's included.

My Fit MSRP was $15,905 and the 09 is up to $16,260 +$355

Here's the side by side of the '09 Fit Sport MT to Insight II EX
+$5,000
I know it has an automatic but to compare to the Fit AT makes no sense to me as I'd never own it.

http://automobiles.honda.com/tools/compare/results-overview.aspx?ModelName=Fit&ModelYear=2009&AICGroupNum=4796&AICNum1=25631&LastState=%2Ftools%2Fcompare%2Ftrims-change.aspx%3FModelName%3DFit%26ModelYear%3D2009%26AICGroupNum%3D4796%26AICNum1%3D25631%26LastState%3D%26AICNum2%3D26414&AICNum2=26414&Filter=&Mode=&Photo=&Change=

Look at what I found

Insight II to Prius III
http://automobiles.honda.com/tools/compare/results-overview.aspx?ModelName=Insight&ModelYear=2010&AICGroupNum=6242&AICNum1=26414&LastState=%2Ftools%2Fcompare%2Fselect-competitor-similar.aspx%3FModelName%3DInsight%26ModelYear%3D2010%26AICGroupNum%3D6242%26AICNum1%3D26414%26LastState%3D%26AICNum2%3D26632&AICNum2=26632&Filter=&Mode=&Photo=&Change=

WOW the P III has a 1.8l 134hp engine:eek:
Peak tq at 4000rpms that has to be a typo???
Maybe it's needed because of the +3,000lb curb weight???

Here' the current P II to Insight
http://automobiles.honda.com/tools/compare/results-overview.aspx?ModelName=Insight&ModelYear=2010&AICGroupNum=6242&AICNum1=26414&LastState=%2Ftools%2Fcompare%2Fselect-competitor-similar.aspx%3FModelName%3DInsight%26ModelYear%3D2010%26AICGroupNum%3D6242%26AICNum1%3D26414%26LastState%3D%26AICNum2%3D25340&AICNum2=25340&Filter=&Mode=&Photo=&Change=

Thanks. Lost 2.5 cu ft in the pass compartment-that sure isn't a plus.The PriusII is 2 adults one dog road trip capable now, but subtracting 2 cubic feet isn't a plus.

So we will finally get a real hybrid minivan. With luck it will arrive in time to replace my thirsty vehicle.
Thanks,
Charlie

Well, I think this all comes down to what your goal is. If your primary motive is saving money, your best bet is to keep the fit even if you revert to driving like a maniac. I simply don't see a way to come out ahead on cash, even if you were to skew the result by driving the Fit like a madman while driving the new Prius or Insight like you are on a marathon run.

If you don't care about money and want to save the most fuel possible, then fine. You can save a marginal amount of fuel with a new hybrid vs. throwing the book at your Fit provided that you still drive with a light foot. But you aren't talking huge amounts of fuel here. Let's say you take it easy with the hybrids but don't do anything special, you might be talking mid 50s up to ~60mpg depending on what sort of "real world" numbers these cars put down. (I really don't expect big improvements over what we are used to.) If you drive 15,000mi per year, that's in the neighborhood of 50gal saved annually. It isn't nothing, but it's still hard to justify the cost plus the environmental impact of building a whole new car. (Maybe impossible to justify once you consider that last bit.)

I think that if I were in your situation, I would keep the Fit and ease off on the driving style to a comfortable level. No point burning yourself out. The only exception might be if there were something about the Fit that I just couldn't live with that couldn't be fixed.

Tim, drive like a madman. lol not me

CC at 55 (with NO A/C) on a 70mph Interstate (my only proposed change to my methods)? Is that in the madman bucket?

I guess I should of just done the math lol
Even with gas at $5/ gal with my 15,000/ year travel
it would still take 12 years to break even. 25 years at $2.5/gal
assuming Insight II at 60 and Fit at 45 FE

I like the Fit a great deal, for a tinny car. The only ugly little secret is in-spite of the 5 start crash rating Insurance premiums are high for this car regardless of driving records.

Tim, drive like a madman. lol not me

CC at 55 (with NO A/C) on a 70mph Interstate (my only proposed change to my methods)? Is that in the madman bucket?

I guess I should of just done the math lol
Even with gas at $5/ gal with my 15,000/ year travel
it would still take 12 years to break even. 25 years at $2.5/gal
assuming Insight II at 60 and Fit at 45 FE

I like the Fit a great deal, for a tinny car. The only ugly little secret is in-spite of the 5 start crash rating Insurance premiums are high for this car regardless of driving records.

Honda Ins. is high.

Keep the Fit:)

Keep the Fit.

IMO, trading now wastes your money, time and more of the planets resources.

I know this doesn't apply to you, but I find it funny when I see someone who says they want to save the earth by driving a hybrid, so they trade in their almost new car to somehow accomplish this.

Keep the Fit.

IMO, trading now wastes your money, time and more of the planets resources.

I know this doesn't apply to you, but I find it funny when I see someone who says they want to save the earth by driving a hybrid, so they trade in their almost new car to somehow accomplish this.

Someone with a clunker might purchase the car he traded in. Effectively, he does make it more affordable for someone looking to trade up and wants to take their 15mpg fsp off the road. I'd venture to say a huge majority of fit buyers are upgrading at least in regard to mpg's. Trading in his fit makes it somewhat more affordable.

Honda Ins. is high.

Keep the Fit:)

I found a page with Insurance claims per make and model. The Prius and HCH have some of the lowest claim rates per 1000 cars . Regular Civic 150 vs Hybrid Civic at 103 vs Prius at 74.

If your interested in taking a look. theautochannel.com (http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/04/15/040271.html)

I had to travel a different way today that was 95% Interstate. 110mi RT

Sat the CC at 55 and let it eat.
RT FE was 48mpg.
Now I did use Hypermilling methods but nothing advanced. No FAS no P&G.

20k miles now and I think my Fit is better now then new

BTW I never started this thread to brag on the Fit or bash Hybrids. I want to buy one but was struggling with the cost justification.

I had to travel a different way today that was 95% Interstate. 110mi RT

Sat the CC at 55 and let it eat.
RT FE was 48mpg.
Now I did use Hypermilling methods but nothing advanced. No FAS no P&G.

20k miles now and I think my Fit is better now then new

BTW I never started this thread to brag on the Fit or bash Hybrids. I want to buy one but was struggling with the cost justification.

There's a guy here in the office who bought a Fit about a year ago. He has almost exactly the same commute as me, but his is actually easier to hypermile, because he could p&g in the much less dense traffic. I routinely get over 50 mpg in our AT Yaris and he can't figure out how. Your numbers here are great to see, because he claims he cannot achieve anything in the 40's without driving unsafely. You prove here anyone can get over 40 in the fit in somewhat favorable conditions. It will be a great day when people realize great FE is a choice, but superb FE does take skill and discipline.

I found a page with Insurance claims per make and model. The Prius and HCH have some of the lowest claim rates per 1000 cars . Regular Civic 150 vs Hybrid Civic at 103 vs Prius at 74.

If your interested in taking a look. theautochannel.com (http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/04/15/040271.html)

Don't you think that says way more about the drivers than the cars? Cars seldom cause accidents, people routinely do.

48 MPG at 55mph with the CC on is very good.
If I did the same with our 2006 Prius- 55 CC on-no hypermiling stuff other than 4+ psi tires
The Prius wouldn't beat your Fit by much-maybe 53-mpg.
However, for some reason the Prius gets very close to the same mpg at 55mph ( CC on that it does at 62 mph)-.In general at 62 cc on I get 50-51 mpg-level highway, no wind etc.The Prius hovers at 50 mpg between 55mph and 65 mph with the CC on.

48 mpg-not much point in getting a Prius, unless you want a bigger-longer-car. The Prius can transport longer objects, but not really tall objects.You get a lot of bang for the $$ with the Fit.
Now with very little effort the Prius can get 55 mpg in city driving-once warmed up. With zero effort my wife and son get 40 mpg pure city.They are typical USA drivers-gas/brake/gas/brake with lots of very short trips. Same/same city driving it borders on impossible to beat a Prius II with any other 5 passenger car. The Prius III is supposed to beat it-we'll see.
Thanks,
Charlie

One more data point and I'll let it be. I had to go further today. 105 miles each way. Got caught up in some rain for 60 miles or so on the return leg, but showed 46.5 FE RT. 4 hrs drive time. Again 55 CC no AC. I'm positive it was not that good when new. Lower 40's when new.

Maybe tax credits will kick in and that will help me get in one.

Don't you think that says way more about the drivers than the cars? Cars seldom cause accidents, people routinely do.

YEP, it nice to know which cars to stay away from. When I was in HS I drove a 65 GTO.
The insurance company liked GTO's. I really wanted a 383 or 440 GTX, Road Runner, RT Charger or Super Bee. Insurance agent just laughed and said you can't afford the car. :eek:

One more update

Just filled up 446.2 miles 9.293 Gal US.

Entire tank was with Interstate driving no AC 55mpg on CC. Maybe 10 to 15% was other slower with stops and some P&G FASing

I'm pleased to see 48mpg

I agree with Wayne on the City point, the new software has made my HCHII more HI2 like in the stop and crawl and true city conditions, but my Prius was capable of a bit more with less paying attention to the car in those same conditions.

Throw in the summer heat of the southeast, and I'd also compare the AC system efficiencies.