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http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/2/AmericanFlag.jpg Does this Spell the End For Harlley-Davidson. (http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/StockInvestingTrading/is-harley-davidson-over-the-hill.aspx)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/1991_FXR_Harley_-_1_million_miles.jpgBy Joseph V. Tirella- MSN Money (http://www.msn.com) - Mar. 27, 2009

It would be sad to see such an American Icon fo! --Ed.

Like many Americans in their 40s, Michael Bogart is thinking about aging.

In the 1980s, when Bogart first started working at the Harley-Davidson (HOG, news, msgs) motorcycle dealership in Long Island City, N.Y., his average customer was between 25 and 35. Today, he says, it's more like 45 to 55.

He's got nothing against his older customers, the dealership's general manager says, but that shift illustrates a big problem for the iconic motorcycle brand: "Guys don't want to be riding this bike that looks like their grandfather's bike." Video: A 20-something rider tests a Harley

Bogart isn't the only one worried. Harley-Davidson might be one of the best-known brands in the world, but it's perceived, at least in some circles, as the motorcycle of choice for aging baby boomers. Now the motorcycle giant confronts a double whammy: Its aging customers are facing physical challenges that could keep them off their bikes for good and financial troubles stemming from the recent market meltdown. On top of that, luxury brand Harley is itself struggling to get through a broad, deep recession and credit crisis.

... http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20819

I like the looks and styling of Harley Davidson motorcycles quite a bit. You can see its influence in other manufacturer's designs, such as the Valkerie Rune. But the reason why the age demographic for HD is so high is because the prices of their motorcycles pretty much preclude younger buyers from purchasing them. Let's face it: a Harley is an impressive bike, but how many 25-year-olds have $30k to spend on a motorcycle? The younger folk are usually cash-strapped and will get a Suzuki -- if they can afford a motorcycle at all!

The video in the MSN story has a sales man pointing to a bike just under $8k and says that is afordable.... a quick look at Honda's line up shows a number of Smaller bikes for less $$ some of them under $4k.

Harleys were over the hill three or four decades ago, when the first UJMs came over the ocean. The Honda CB750, Kawasaki Z-1, and Suzuki GS-1000 were quiet, smooth, powerful, and reliable. They relegated Harley-Davidson to the niche "rebel" market it currently occupies.

There are an impressive number of fat old guys who want to grow their hair long and show off on weekends, but people who use motorcycles for transportation know that any Japanese motorcycle with half the displacement will be quieter, smoother, faster, less expensive, and more reliable than a Harley.

Could this be just like the auto market? Japanese motorcycle companies can make affordable bikes, but Harley can only make a profit on big luxury bikes.

Harley is selling '32 Ford coupes, or '57 Chevys, in 2009. They're expensive, and they don't compete in the modern marketplace for price or quality. They excel as retro (or original) dream vehicles to a niche market.

Harley-Davidson begged for government tariff protection in the 1970s, putting a huge tax hit on all competitive Italian, Japanese, German, and British motorcycles with over 700 cc displacement. That allowed Harley to develop its Evolution engine and claw its back into the marketplace, if you consider government protection to be competitive.

Modern motorcycle engines are DOHC, water-cooled, efficient powerplants. Harley engines are pushrod, air-cooled dinosaurs. Harley is not competitive outside its nostalgia niche.

Modern motorcycle engines are DOHC, water-cooled, efficient powerplants. Harley engines are pushrod, air-cooled dinosaurs. Harley is not competitive outside its nostalgia niche.

That's not entirely correct.

Harley has the V-Rod, with a water-cooled V-twin designed in Germany:

http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/Content/Pages/2009_Motorcycles/2009_Motorcycles.jsp?locale=en_US#/model/vrscaw

The problem with the V-Rod is that the "faithful" (Harley fanatics) have pretty much scorned the bike because it's not retro enough and doesn't sound enough like a retro Harley. So here is Harley trying to modernize, and they are having trouble with their dyed-in-the-wool customers. So you can't blame it all on Harley. It's kind of like GM and Ford trying to sell fuel-efficient cars, and having their customers reject them in favor of FSP hulks...

By the way, my BMW is an opposed twin that is air-cooled. It does have fuel-injection, an electronic motor management system, 4-valves per cylinder, and an oil cooler to help out (this type of BMW motor is referred to as an "oilhead.") BMW does offer water-cooled inline engines in some models, which incorporate some Formula One technology, as well as some singles and twins with water cooling.

Harry

Harley need to something compelling to buy, other than the same old look.

I can see why Harley buyers scorn the V-Rod. The styling is still trying to keep the traditional look without an Incredible big reason to buy it.
The guy buying the traditional Harley is NOT looking specks and performance, he wants the Old School look, feel and image of a Harley.

If Harley wants to be round in 15~ years they need to design something from ground up NEW.
They can keep making the old school bike as a secondary line for people willing to pay extra for an "Image".

Harley NEEDs to find something to compel young buyers at this price range.
Kawasaki 250cc Ninja $3,999
Honda Nighthawk $3,799
Honda Rebel $3,399

Harley-Davidson rebadged some Italian Aermacchi two-stroke motorcycles in the 1960s and 1970s. Like the VROD, they just didn't appeal to "real" Harley owners. That's amazing to me, as Harley owners are by and large the biggest poseurs in motorcycling (apologies to any Harley owners out there).

...as Harley owners are by and large the biggest poseurs in motorcycling (apologies to any Harley owners out there).

This is a common saying in HD world and it applies to your above comment:

"HARLEY DAVIDSON. If I have to explain you wouldn't understand." :flag: - Dale

The Hummer, Model 165, Super-10, Topper, Ranger, Pacer, Scat and Bobcat were all American made HD 2 strokes, The HD Sprint was a 4 stroke until 1974. And the above mentioned Italian Aermacchia made, HD badged, motorcycles were 2 strokes.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1966-harley-davidson-sprint.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_Hummer

I remember the Indian dirt bikes too:

http://www.indiandirtbike.com/id23.html

http://www.cycletownusa.com/post1953.html - Dale

I've never had a Harley, but I can't rule one out. The pricing is out of line with the technology. If the used maket start to drop, I'll probably get one. My last bike was a Honda VFR 800.

For less money than a Harley, I got a BMW with 50 percent more horsepower, world class anti-lock brakes, and far better handling.

I don't have the sound of a Harley, or the chrome. I'm happy with my choice. I want a touring bike, not a cruiser, and that's what I have with a BMW R1150RT.

The Harley crowd won't buy anything but a Harley. Like the article says, the Harley crowd is likely to get smaller in the future.

BMW has been making an effort to appeal to a younger crowd, with more affordable bikes like the F650 and F800 series.

http://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/us/en/index.html

BMW's emphasis has always been to provide motorcycles for riding, not for showing off. Top of the list of priorities has been handling, braking, and performance, especially touring performance.

Harry

Harley is just feeling the effects of the economy nothing more.

Harley is just feeling the effects of the economy nothing more.

I agree. It's a luxury purchase. When we forget about our present troubles we will have no trouble buying presents again. And we will forget, like we always do. :p - Dale

I have little interest in Harley Davidson because their bikes are such horrible fuel hogs. I love my Japanese bikes for the same reason I love my Japanese car: they are fuel efficient.

Harley, sadly, has cut its own throat when it comes to marketing bikes to people like me. They have spent so many years developing a "bad-ass" image for their bikes (and their pirate wannabe riders) that any attempt to produce and market less "bad-ass" designs will alienate their traditional buyers. They are a niche manufacturer, and probably always will be.

When I bought the Street Bob last May, I didn't go out looking for a Harley. All I knew was that I wanted a cruiser with fuel injection thats air cooled, and after looking at what the various manufacturers had to offer, I ended up at a Harley dealer. The only way I can describe it is that the Japanese bikes are just off target. Cartoonish?
Plus, it seemed right to spend my stimulus $$ that way!

Harleys are not "horrible fuel hogs" as Cowboy says. I have an '00 HD Road King, 1550 cc with 85+ HP, and get 42 mpg on a consisent basis riding 2 up. That beats alot of "high mpg" cages out there in my opinion. Young riders cannot afford a HD, that's true, but later on in life they can or will, HD's are reliable bikes, with good styling if you like that look, if you don't, then buy something else that does appeal to you. There are "niche" markets for just about every product made, whether automobiles, homes, clothes, etc., all niche marketers doing what HD does, makes their product "seem better" whether it is or is not.