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Hi All:

___I was following up on the A123 Sytems M1 batteries last night and it lead to a new division they are involved with in the RC racing groups. The highest technology Li-Ion’s on the planets and they are being stuck in 365V portable tools and now RC race cars, planes, and helicopters???

___Anyway, in one of these RC forums, someone mentioned the Hymotion’s Li-Ion might be constructed out of a multi-stack pack of A123 System M1’s as well? Does anyone have any info on this? I sure wish we had a few more hours at HF2006 as they were right there :(

http://www.a123racing.com/images/logo.gif
60C burst rates and a fast 15 minute charge to near full? My goodness what a great set of batteries these things are!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I'm pretty sure the cost is preventative. I'm guessing that hybrid manufacturers would rather go for the heavier, cheaper (I'm pretty sure the cost is preventative. I'm guessing that hybrid manufacturers would rather go for the *heavier, cheaper NiMH packs that supposedly last ~15 years, but since Chevron tends to sue anyone who says they're going to make a NiMH battery larger than ~10amps, I wonder if we'll see these outside of military/government use.) NiMH packs that supposedly last ~15 years, but since Chevron tends to sue anyone who says they're going to make a NiMH battery larger than ~10amps, I wonder if we'll see these outside of military/government use.

*http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/05/electro_energys.html

edit-are hyperlinks broken?

Hi Lyeinyoureye:

___The Chevron/Cobasys NiMH news is ancient history …

___If you have not been following, the latest Li-Ion’s are ready to go. I spoke with a battery manufacturer - insider just a few weeks ago and all the safeties and longevity solutions are in place. Whether the manufacturers will spend the $’s is the next real hurdle however.

___Wrt A123 Systems, you have probably seen hundreds of articles about their Li-Ion Nanotech anode/cathode patents around the net and this is why I was disappointed to see them in the RC circuit first. All their HEV battery solutions are either only test builds or stacks of M1’s from everything I have run across …

___Good Luck

___Wayne

These seem to cost three times more than conventional li-ion batteries (six times more than the supposed bipolar NiMHs) , and have lower energy density. Otoh the much higher discharge rates are nice If the manufacturer wants to build some sort of drag racing hybrid? But for most combined electric/gasoline motor use, current battery tech seems to fit the bill at a fraction of the cost...

Hi Lyeinyoureye:

___C rates and energy density/weight of the pack is what makes the Li-Ion great. Thermal Runaway and shortened lifespan are where they are not so hot. The last two have been solved. NiMH’s cannot absorb energy like a Li-Ion unless you have a lot more of them during regen and they weigh twice as much. The cost issues will have to be worked out. Check out the price of an everyday 18650 3.6V Li-Ion cel today vs. 2 years ago and you will see where we are headed. Especially as we move towards running more EV given the charging rates. 15 minutes to almost full from DD off their charger. Pull that on a NiMH of similar power and you will end up melting the darn thing. Cel’s and Laptops have already moved to Li-Ion with HEV’s just a short few years behind.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Some Toyota inside scoop indicates that their 20 year hybrid plan will stick with NIMH for most of that period. The stated reason is longevity. All LI batteries have limited service life,as well as limited storage life. NIMH can last the life of the car which many people keep for 10-15 years. We can see this when we look at out notebook battery life guage, and see the useable capacity drop with each cycle.
On the other side, when I got the tour of Johnson controls hybrid battery research lab, when picking up the Optima yellow tops for the hybrid fest, LI batteries are definately in their plans.
They had a spiral wound LI battery with single cells 3-4" in diameter, in multi cell packs that they were testing, that were several hundred AH. Thats the way to do a LI hybrid pack in my book.
The A123 cells are only 2-3 AH, and the same paralleling issues that are an issue with the notebook cells make me shy away from them.
I also read somewhere that several Japanese battery makers have prototypes of large LI cells that can be charged to 80% in 5-10 minutes.
An interesting time for batterys, and the cars that will run on them. Electric cars will rule, the question is when will the batteries be available at a tolerable price to make it happen.;)

Hi Mike:

___Those 80% charge in 5-10 minute Li-Ion’s were from Toshiba IIRC? I have not heard a word about them in at least a year however?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

The way the nickel market is going, it may not take long to close the price gap vs. lithium.

DAS

15 minutes to almost full from DD off their charger. Pull that on a NiMH of similar power and you will end up melting the darn thing.

Panasonic has been selling for several years now over the counter NiMH cells that they charge up in like 15 Min.... I think they actually only charge lke 95% at the 15 min rate but I could be wrong....

The 6 Year old NiMH Battery Technology in the Insight D Cells take regen rates up to 50 Amps which is a full charge in like under 10 minutes.... Newer versions of NiMH in the same capacity can take much more....

I could be wrong but I thought most NiMH Batteries can take give Amps at much much higher rates than Li of any type can , especially with Lithium batteries internal Resistance per cell and voltage sag at high currents..... But I have not been following Li Batteries as close as others I am sure.


The highest technology Li-Ion’s on the planets and they are being stuck in 365V portable tools and now RC race cars, planes, and helicopters???


That might not be a bad thing.... The T-Zero and now the Tesla both use thousands of 18650 Li cells to give them the range they want becuase they are cost effective per Wh and per Pound becuase they are so mass produced for RC and other industries.... In fact it was one of the T-Zero Engineers who is into RC stuff that thought 18650's would be the best way to go.... If they can get some of these industries to take to the A123 in a serious way then the cost of the A123 will drop like a rock and the next generation of Tesla like cars might be baised on A123 , like 5 or so years from now....

Hi Iamian:
Panasonic has been selling for several years now over the counter NiMH cells that they charge up in like 15 Min ... I think they actually only charge like 95% at the 15 min rate but I could be wrong ...

The 6 Year old NiMH Battery Technology in the Insight D Cells take regen rates up to 50 Amps which is a full charge in like under 10 minutes ... Newer versions of NiMH in the same capacity can take much more ...

I could be wrong but I thought most NiMH Batteries can take give Amps at much much higher rates than Li of any type can, especially with Lithium batteries internal Resistance per cell and voltage sag at high currents ... But I have not been following Li Batteries as close as others I am sure.
___All true except when you get into the real world of HEV’s and the new Li-Ion’s. Look at the C-Rates and number of deep discharges cycles these new Li-Ion’s can take. The numbers are incredible vs. what we know happens to a NiMH when not controlled within a tight 40% band or thereabouts …

That might not be a bad thing ... The T-Zero and now the Tesla both use thousands of 18650 Li cells to give them the range they want because they are cost effective per Wh and per Pound becuase they are so mass produced for RC and other industries ... In fact it was one of the T-Zero Engineers who is into RC stuff that thought 18650's would be the best way to go ... If they can get some of these industries to take to the A123 in a serious way then the cost of the A123 will drop like a rock and the next generation of Tesla like cars might be based on A123 , like 5 or so years from now ...
___I have been a proponent of the AC Propulsion’s massive use of 18650’s for years and if you follow up, they are doing it again with a touch over $50K Scion xB in their latest iteration the last time I looked. The A123 Systems M1’s are supposedly the best things made right now? Whether that means they will be the first to offer long lasting and safe Li-Ion’s to the HEV/PHEV/EV industry/consumer has yet to be seen. I think JCI will be the first Li-Ion in a domestic with a Panasonic Li-Ion in a Prius III in less then 2 years myself. Just a guess of course but the OEM’s need huge energy storage to make the PHEV/EV work and the NiMH’s are just to bulky for that application.

FEH has a 1.7 kWh Sanyo NiMH pack - Used: ~ 340 Wh
Prius II has a 1.3 kWh Panasonic Prismatic NiMH pack - Used: ~ 520 Wh

___Following the RAV4EV’s NiMH’s, I thought I remember reading that they allowed an 80% DoD? Why the Hybrid’s are not allowed this kind of range (PHEV-5 + pretty easily) must have something to do with the longevity question? Li-Ion’s have the aging issue (I am not sure that has been cured?) but they don’t have the DoD issues like the NiMH’s have + the much higher energy/lb + the huge C rates. I am talking about the latest Li-Ion’s like those from JCI/SAFT or A123. I even tried to convince Mike to consider a massively parallel setup using off-the-shelf 18650’s like AC Propulsion but individual CEL bundle control would be a nightmare if I remember his reply correctly?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Mixing DoD cycles opens up a new can o' worms. What pattern would the average driver have? Is there some minimal lifetime depending on combinations of cycles? I think the current hybrid is focused on increasing ICE efficiency, as opposed to increasing battery C-rate, because that's where the biggest gain is going to be seen for the average driver. Look at what you and others can do with P&G, manufacturers would rather spend the money minimizing pumping losses so everyone can get 90-100mpg EPA as opposed to spending a lot on battery tech that will most likely drop in price by the time the next gen hybrid is out.

Hi Lyeinyoureye:

___A few items … Pb-Acids have a limited life span under 90 - 100% DoD of around 300 cycles. NiMH and Li-Ion I have seen numbers that exceed 2 and 3,000 respectively and the Li-Ion’s in particular still have huge cap still left in them.

___Going back to the RAV4EV, I have heard of some really huge numbers of deep discharge cycles (150,000 + miles) and still having > 90% Cap using their OEM NiMH’s. Far better then was thought possible. Having a 0 - 60 time of around 18 seconds is a bit tough to live with for some however ;)

___Today’s hybrids cannot capture much over 30% of the current in rush due to limited C-rates. Tomorrows huge C-Rate capable Li-Ion’s will capture far more during regen then what we have today and the same with draw down. You will be able to burst much larger MGSets from a future Li-Ion then any NiMH of the same weight available today.

___SI-ICE efficiency has about peaked so you do not/will not receive much more FE from a more efficient ICE. The use of a larger pack and it being charged with a much smaller ICE in a more efficient RPM range is what is the future … and/or not to use the ICE at all! Consider all the 200 + HP V6’s in the various types of automobiles today. I can bet the average driving cycle uses all of 35 - 40 HP on average continuous if that. This is what the hybrids are trying to capture in some respect. Besides ICE shutoff at stops and early fuel cut w/ regen for coast downs, if you had a 200 HP MGSet with a 50 HP SI-ICE charging a 20 kWh Li-Ion pack, would you save fuel? Of course you would because you are burning fuel in a 35 - 37% efficient, well designed 600 cc SI-ICE instead of a 30% semi-efficient 3.0 L one! You will have the same burst power capability but you only use it for a short period or mostly not at all. Nobody runs around with their foot in the floor all the time? Well some do but not that many ;) Because of this average power usage, you can get by with a smaller ICE and the pack will supplement the power needs when and where appropriate. This is the hybrid design criteria and why you see a 1.0 L in the Insight, a 1.3 in the HCH-I/II and a 1.5 L heavily atkinsonized 1.5 L in the Prius I/II. Small ICE’s but the packs supplement for decent performance and we receive great steady state FE even while running down the highway. The larger the pack/MGSet capabilities, the smaller that ICE has to be on average. Go to a future PHEV w/ a 50 + Li-Ion kWh pack and you don’t need the ICE at all for 98% of your time behind the wheel.

___Let us talk overall weight … A 15 gallon tank of fuel (the fuel itself) weighs ~ 100 #’s. A Hymotion PHEV-20’s Li-Ion pack weighs ~ 150 #’s. The smaller ICE of a hybrid probably drops 100 #’s all on its own. IIRC, the Insight’s 1.0 L weighs in at < 70 #’s! See where I am headed with this? Due to the lighter weight of the new Li-Ion’s, you really did not lose anything in terms of total power and or weight to be carried with the overall design. Especially if you use a 10 gallon tank with the smaller ICE and still receive far more range. There is the weight of the inverter/converter and the MGSet(s) themselves to consider however :(

___A caveat and one the hybrid designers must consider … You don’t pull a trailer up Pikes Peak with a future hybrid even with a large pack because once the pack has reached its low limit SoC, you are stuck with a 600 cc SI-ICE to do the work as just one design example. That would not be pretty :(

___I am not an engineer of that sort but you can see where a hybrid’s efficiency comes from every time you come to a stop or when at steady state cruise going down the highway in a non-hybrid. You are not using any of the power capabilities of either a SI or CI-ICE equipped automobile but there they all are idling away going nowhere using none of the 200 + HP most of those V6’s are capable of today.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

So long as pumping losses are present are you sure gasoline ICE engine efficiency has peaked, or that peak gasoline efficiency has peaked? ;)
For that matter, would it better to invest in batteries that cost six times more in order to allow for improved regen braking while ignoring the pumping losses inherent with a large engine? From what I've gathered, destroking and supercharging the 1NZ-FXE would yield far better returns via the average driver's FE because most people don't know how to P&G in order to minimize pumping losses and BSFC... Even the 1NZ-FXE only operates at ~12-26% thermal efficiency at 1-1.5k rpm compared to it's peak of ~36%. Supercharging would effectively increase the minimum efficiency and the area of the BSFC ovals, for lack of a better word? During the 48mph EPA city test, the Prius only gets ~50mpg, even though using P&G with a 50mph average speed has been shown to produce much better mileage because when P&G'ing versus cruising, the engine's going from an average of ~14% efficiency to 30+% efficiency given the Prius only needs a few hp to cruise at 48mph, but depending on load and P&G duration/window, more than twice as much power is needed for less than half the time to accelerate from ~35-60mph with a 50mph average...
Even using a battery pack that is the same price but eight times heavier would allow for much better gasoline FE compared to a smaller li-ion pack that's a sixth of the size. Especially given that older nimh tech has been performing well, and newer versions are probably going to be better and cheaper. Not that li-ion won't eventually outpace nimh, but it may take a few years.

http://www.evchargernews.com/miscfiles/sce-rav4ev-100k.pdf#search=%22rav4%20ev%20filetype%3Apdf%22
http://www-personal.engin.umd.umich.edu/~chrismi/downloads/HEVModel/FC_PRIUS_JPN.m

Hi Lyeinyoureye:
So long as pumping losses are present are you sure gasoline ICE engine efficiency has peaked, or that peak gasoline efficiency has peaked? ;)

___Not nearly but a CI-ICE has at best 40 - 45% thermal efficiency yet a SI-ICE equipped hybrid can supply better performance and higher FE? What are you missing here?

From what I've gathered, destroking and supercharging the 1NZ-FXE would yield far better returns via the average driver's FE because most people don't know how to P&G in order to minimize pumping losses and BSFC ... Even the 1NZ-FXE only operates at ~12-26% thermal efficiency at 1-1.5k rpm compared to it's peak of ~36%. Supercharging would effectively increase the minimum efficiency and the area of the BSFC ovals, for lack of a better word?

___As proposed, where is it? Do you see this super efficient and relatively inexpensive ICE on the road today? I see Prius II’s, HCH-I’s and II’s and the occasional Insight all the time. I know what there capabilities are. I have no idea what your proposed ICE would do in a car of equal size and weight because the automakers including Toyota, Honda, and Ford have discovered supercharging a destroked ICE doesn’t work to improve FE with a decent HP output long ago? Toyota did not spend a billion or two $’s to follow the hybrid path for the fun of it?

During the 48mph EPA city test, the Prius only gets ~ 50mpg, even though using P&G with a 50mph average speed has been shown to produce much better mileage because when P&G'ing versus cruising, the engine's going from an average of ~14% efficiency to 30+% efficiency given the Prius only needs a few hp to cruise at 48mph, but depending on load and P&G duration/window, more than twice as much power is needed for less than half the time to accelerate from ~35-60mph with a 50mph average...
Even using a battery pack that is the same price but eight times heavier would allow for much better gasoline FE compared to a smaller li-ion pack that's a sixth of the size. Especially given that older nimh tech has been performing well, and newer versions are probably going to be better and cheaper. Not that li-ion won't eventually outpace nimh, but it may take a few years.

___The City test yields 60 mpg, not 50. P&G’ing a Prius II at a 50 mph average does not bring about higher FE then steady state at the same? Do you know why the almost 3,000 # Prius II receives 60 mpg in the FTP75? It is because the ICE is off over 48% of the time! This is hybridization and why it work so well.

___Pumping losses are a secondary concern when it comes to a huge L ICE vs. a small one. The hybridization is what is making the package work, not the atkinsonized intake. You only need to look to the HCH-I/II as it does not use an Atkinson intake nor does the HCH-II use leanburn. When we can start using sub 1 L ICE’s (including those with Atkinson based intakes, DI-ICE’s, or small turbocharged CI-ICE’s) because of the large pack and MGSet capabilities, personal transportation as we know it will become obsolete. Today’s Hybrids have just begun to show us the way. Hybrids receive the FE with relatively decent performance today. Tomorrows PHEV’s and eventual EV’s are only going to get better. You can take that to the bank. What they do to increase thermal efficiency with the smaller ICE’s in tomorrow’s hybrids is small potatoes vs. a PHEV/EV. The ICE simply cannot compete with a motor at 85 + % efficiency including the losses of conversion from the power plant to and through the pack and inverter to those same motors driving the wheels.

___I have driven these incredible machines to some wildly stupid numbers just using there hybridization and efficient ICE’s. P&G can blow all of that away but who is going to do that all the time? You obviously are not or your FE would be much higher. Do you think the average Joe will P&G in a continuous fashion for as long as he owns the vehicle? Not a chance in hell. There are those that have a perfect route for it that may be able to and the results speak for themselves.

World record distance on a single tank for a Prius II - Japan - July 4 - Aug 16, 2006 (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1793)

___What I do suggest is that you immediately go out with a hypermiler in a Prius II to show you how easy it is to achieve ridiculous FE as well as what the capabilities of these things are below 40 mph. Only then will you realize why Toyota has sold 100’s of thousands of them vs. any 1.0 L supercharged ICE in an Insight body/frame and P&G’ed it to its death. The average consumer will take the Prius over the nightmare scenario each and every time.

___I am pointing out what is on the road today and will be tomorrow. I do speak with these battery manufacturers. You are trying to portray an idea that isn’t even being considered because it was found to be unworkable by comparison to a hybrid in terms of FE, Performance, and/or price. As we have discussed in the past, build it and they will come. Right now, either of us can simply go to our local Toyota dealership, place our name on a list, and a Prius II arrives with almost every available amenity known to man. And the cool thing is the average Joe will get 48 mpg out of it without a thought. Those pushing will easily see 70. Those with the perfect drive will see far higher. This is today’s reality and it is only going to get better depending on how fast the new Super packs drop in price.

Friend purchases a brand new, 2006 Toyota Prius II for $18,155 + tax! (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1615)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I even tried to convince Mike to consider a massively parallel setup using off-the-shelf 18650’s like AC Propulsion but individual CEL bundle control would be a nightmare if I remember his reply correctly?


yeagh... from what I recall the T-Zero and Tesla and others that use the massive thousands of 18650 cells they get the 18650's from a distribuor with an IC already attached to each cell that will cut power to or from the cell if the current in or out goes too high or if the cell voltage goes to low or too high.... that forms the basic ground level .... then they build up to about 400V series string of the 18650's .... this series string has a Battery management system on it to make sure that individual cells in the series are properly charged and discharged.... they then attach several of these series strings in parrelel to get up to the number of Ah that they want.... another Battery Management System then tracks the parrelel sub-packs to make sure they are being equally charged / discharged ...... even after you have designed .. tested.... and are happy with your BMS ... you still have to connect up several thousand 18650 cells.... If I recall correctly .... a booster battery for the Insight made out of 18650 cells would have been about 1,000 cells or so... would have been extreamly light ... but between the couple of thousand dollars for the 18650 cells and the BMS design plus the thousands of connections.... I think Mike went with Lead becuse it was the cheapest / easest solution... to prove the concept... and It has .... I know a PHEV Booster battery is now on my list for my Insight.

I just don't understand this amount of discussion on hybrid battery technology.

It's obviously not mature, but it works well enough to be a viable system.

I'm tiring of the arguments that the hybrid system is not cost-effective, pollutes more from cradle to grave, etc. It's very strange that Toyota, Honda, others continue to make hybrids if that was the case.

Delta Flyer
I think the excitement that is behind this discussion is due to the breakthroughs that are in the process of being made in battery technology. The perfect battery allows the perfect electric car which makes burning gas that the world only has a limited supply of, a stupid thing to do, in light of the green house effect, and the many other wonderful things that we could be doing with all that oil, and the flexability that an electric car can bring with grid, wind or solar recharging.
I got upset today as I sat in my 100MPG batmobile in the grocery store parking lot. A huge hummer on one side, and a big pickup on the other. Both idling while the wife runs in and does a bit of shopping. What are they thinking.
Lets face it We all better want electric cars pretty soon or we will be in for some big problems.
Sorry for the rant
Now I feel better;)

Hi Mike:

___You have a way of clearing away the cobwebs and seeing the answer in a new and efficient manner, don’t you ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Mike,

I went to a restaurant after a very long day. Parked in a less convienet place because this radio station drove in what many D/FW stations drive in - an H2 as a billboard. Let's get serious - lots of vehicles carry five people with as much luggage with superior fuel economy - the comercials for the H2 appeal to those that want an FUV. Frankly, I wish the people that drive them get relentless pestering. Vanity and insecurity is why they bought them - ridicule would defeat their motive quicker than anything else. I hope the day comes...

Frankly, I wish the people that drive them get relentless pestering. Vanity and insecurity is why they bought them - ridicule would defeat their motive quicker than anything else. I hope the day comes...

I don't think that will ever happen... far too many people in this country do envy those H2's and want one themselves..... people bragging about Horse Power or Liters of displacement 0-60 times are common place.... MPG if you brag about that they look at you like your crazy or nutty...

Even if it did happen I also don't think it would stop said people from getting H2's and such... they would think those who are ridiculing them are just jealous which would just feed them more....

The only way to get most of the people like 60 to 70% of Americans anyway to not buy more FE vehicles is to make said vehicles more than cost effective... heck dont' give them a choice... make all the MPG numbers higher and people will still buy gas guzzlers... but at least you might get a few of them buying gas guzzlers that are a bit less of a gas guzzler...

I was getting gas the other day for my Insight... a guy asked what I get for MPG.... Every one knows which cars will get them better FE.... I told him... He said he was suprised... His Pick Up Truck only gets like 13 MPG on the Highway he said.... OUCH!!!! I told him that they sell Hybrid SUVs now too if he needed somehting more than the 2 seater that the Insight is... and he then lists like 2 or 3 models of SUV that get upper 20's to low 30's for MPG ..... He knows which SUVs get better MPG tooo... but yet he said he was planning on getting an H2 and when he said it it was like he was proud of it or something...... People in the U.S. just don't care about MPG and FE..... just that simple.... maybe 10% of the buying pucblic cares at all about it... maybe 5% of the buying public would buy thier car baised on MPG or FE as a major part of the the decision.... it was like 90% of my desicion.....

I say tax the heck out of gas make it $10 Per gallon.... Use the money to put up solar power and fund environmental benifiting things.... At $10 per gallon maybe people would start to care..... it is up to $3 per gallon most places and over 90% of the people still just don't care...... maybe at $4 per gallon it will drop to 80% won't care.... and by $5 per gallon on 70% of the people won't give a rats ass any more than to bitch about it buit wont' have it effect what they buy for a car....

I'm thinking about days past in school when a kid got ridiculed for seeking too much attention. These days nobody is ashamed of narcassism. :(

I know this is drifting off-topic, but imagine if the public had a healthy ego and drove a vehicle appropiate vehicle for their needs. Fuel consumption and traffic congestion would dive. There would be no demand for the Hummer and similar vehicles. Detroit would be making cars again.