Archives




View Full Version : Plug-in-Hybrid-Electric-Vehicle or PHEV’s are yet another possible answer


xcel
03-06-2006, 02:33 AM
Wayne Gerdes - CleanMPG.com (www.CleanMPG.com) - March 6, 2006

Hi All:

What is a PHEV or Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle? A PHEV is an HEV (Hybrid Electric Vehicle) with an added battery that can be plugged into a 120/240-volt outlet/receptacle and charged. At lower speeds and shorter commuting distances, a Prius II or Escape HEV could run on nothing but the large plug-in capable battery pack thus not using any liquid fuel while still having the ability to travel its full gasoline only range when the large battery packs SoC (State of Charge) has been depleted. A person who commutes a distance shorter than the car's electric range and below its built in ICE-On (Internal Combustion Engine - On) limitations would never have to use gasoline at all in fact!

EDrive Systems Prius II PHEV
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/506/EDrive_prius_image.jpg
©2006 EDrive Systems LLC.

PHEV technology is viable today and the Electricity supply infrastructure is mostly in place. The only detriment is the current cost of the large battery packs themselves as well as electricity supply once PHEV’s are manufactured in mass. With mass production of Li-Ion batteries for Cel Phones, Laptop’s, and other small electronics, Li-Ion cells are falling in price on what appears to be a monthly basis. The cost of large Li-Ion PHEV packs consisting of these same small cell’s bundled into larger modules and bundled yet again into a battery pack are falling in concert. Utilities should be able to supply the increased electricity demand given the profit potential but it will take some time to increase base load capacity or run off-peak with more and more expensive electricity production as is done during peak hours today. The PHEV offers us part of the solution to Peak Oil and/or our dependence on Foreign oil supplies with domestically produced electricity for energy independence, reduced GHG (Greenhouse Gas Emissions), and much lower fuel costs.

How does the cost of fueling a PHEV compare to a regular ICE based car (Electricity vs. Gasoline) most drive today? With the cost of gasoline in the neighborhood of $2.25/gallon nationwide (http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/mogas_home_page.html) last week and the average national electricity price to the consumer at approximately $0.09/kWh (Kilowatt-Hour) ( http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat7p4.html ), a Prius II - PHEV ends up costing the equivalent of just $0.75 - $0.85/gallon! Given ½ the cars in the US drive less then 25 miles per day, a PHEV-20 (20 mile EV capable) in everyone’s drive could theoretically reduce our daily fuel consumption by > 50%!

Unlike the Hybrid Electric Vehicles most are familiar with, the PHEV does not rely on the gasoline ICE to charge the battery pack. The PHEV can either supplement the power of the ICE or run off its own internal power in EV (Electric Vehicle) mode to take you from point A to point B depending on the commuting distance and your speeds encountered to traverse that distance. This is accomplished using electricity taken from the grid. In other words, the PHEV combines the best of both the HEV and a pure EV while reducing GHG’s, SMOG forming emissions, and lowering our actual transportation costs. Nothing compares to the energy efficiency, performance, and range capability of the PHEV today. As for charge times, a 20 mile capable PHEV (PHEV-20) can be charged in approximately 3 hours on a std. 120 V home circuit overnight.

Currently, automakers are indifferent at best to produce a full fledged PHEV despite its many advantages to the ordinary consumer. This has most to do with the advanced batteries costing many thousands of dollars more then the average consumer is willing to pay over and above the price of a hybrid, let alone the non-hybrid’s most purchase today. As stated above, with the almost monthly price drops seen for Li-Ion storage batteries for small electronics, expect to see these same battery cel’s packed in much larger modules for PHEV pack’s at ever decreasing prices as time moves forward. Taking a look at advanced Li-Ion packs, cost projections from EPRI show < $500/kWh/10,000 units available today. Expect to see even lower costs into the future.

Cost projection courtesy of the EPRI
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/506/Li-Ion_Cost_Projection.jpg

The US consumes > 25% of the worlds daily oil supply yet owns just 3% of the world’s oil. With global demand rising and supply beginning to stagnate due to Peak Oil, the US’ vulnerability due to the our insatiable demand for a product that resides mostly in an unstable part of the world known as the Middle East is simply impossible to ignore any longer. The PHEV can be a partial solution to this vulnerability.

With the overwhelming number of non-hybrid vehicles on the road, the current fuel economy capabilities of today’s HEV’s are a step in the right direction. With that, the current HEV is thought to be a stepping stone to the next generation PHEV’s and then possibly to a much more robust PHEV/EV after that. Not only do today’s HEV’s offer superior FE (upwards of 30% +) over and above their non-hybrid counterparts, they reduce GHG’s’ by the same amount and in most cases, are far cleaner in smog forming emissions vs. most non-hybrid ICE equipped automobiles we drive on a daily basis.

Reducing our dependence on foreign oil is just one advantage the PHEV offers us. Since almost 50% of the nations electricity energy output is derived from coal, are we simple exchanging one emissions path for another? According to CARB (California Air Resources Board), a PHEV-20 will output just 38% of the CO2 vs. a conventional non-hybrid vehicle.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/506/Electric_Output_By_Type.gif

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/506/CARB_Wellto_Wheels_CO2_Emissions.jpg

A PHEV’s emissions will decrease as older less efficient plants are replaced by cleaner more efficient plants in the future showing yet another advantage. If the US were to transition to CO2 sequestered Coal burning power plants, somehow increased the base renewable electrical energy production, or we have a large increase in the number of nuclear based electrical generating facilities, GHG’s decrease ever further until a PHEV is actually nearing that of a ZEV (Zero Emissions Vehicle)! Controlling smog forming tail pipe emissions from tens of millions of automobiles is also far more costly and harder to do then controlling the smog and GHG emissions from a large, centrally located, power plant.

What about Hydrogen to power an FCV’s or Fuel Cell Vehicle? Hydrogen is an energy transfer medium, not a primary source of energy since it does not occur in nature in large concentrations. Electricity will always be a cheaper transport fuel then Hydrogen because the well-to-wheels efficiency of electricity from the grid is much higher then that of producing hydrogen from any known method or source known today including electricity to begin with. Given a Fuel Cell’s huge expense (100’s of thousands of $’s for an FCV or Fuel Celled Vehicle), limited range (less then 200 miles for many of the latest FCV’s), lack of current Hydrogen refueling infrastructure, and inability for most to run much below freezing temperatures, FCV’s seem to me to be the biggest boondoggle in the history of the automobile. Even with an approximately 220 mile range of the best Honda FCV, its gasoline equivalent of ~ 50 mpg for this small of a vehicle is poor at best.

The calculation of energy equivalency is 1Kg of Hydrogen = 1 gallon of gasoline.

hawkgt647
03-06-2006, 06:45 AM
If the price continues to drop on the conversions for a Prius/Escape/Mariner, this would be a very interesting option for my wife's next vehicle.

She works 6 miles from the house, and it's all rural roads (below 45 MPH). In theory, the ICE would never have to start. Might need Stabil in the fuel tank!

If E-drive, HyMotion, or any other manufacturer can keep dropping the prices (hopefully as production scales up), this will become a realistic option.

As far as the grid being able to handle the load, it will be years before this really catches on, if at all. As long as the only option for a PHEV is from the aftermarket, the numbers will stay low. We still need to get off our butts and address the next generation of power plants.

Now if the auto manufacturers get on board with this, then it will be another story.

philmcneal
03-08-2006, 05:17 PM
I'd like a minivan PHEV please, hauling 7 people in green sounds good to me.

zadscmc
04-28-2006, 01:19 PM
I would think that having an adapter that can have a small solar panel plug into the car would be a more efficient way to charge the battery. You don't have to do the old AC to DC chase.

Granted, it won't work on a cloudy day or at night, but it could add several watts of power on a nice sunny day whilst the car sits in a car park.

save_gas_now
05-29-2006, 04:36 PM
The best idea of using solar panels to charge PHEV's or BEV's would be the solar car park, or home solar array!

(issue is converted solar radiation at 15% efficiency per area solar radiation received, cost per solar panel - flexible ones to mate well with auto surfaces, and available auto upper or nearly flat areas) You will need about $20,000 worth of panels and controllers at todays prices, to get a good output for a days charge! Of course - if you have it - you are now insulated from grid outages, price increases, etc.

Consider - full on sun at direct angle of 90 degrees on a 15 watt / 1 amp panel that costs about $150 Canadian at Canadian Tire for a reference - or see this GE 200 Watt pannel ($1,100 U.S.$ ea. ) for reference - about 38" x 58" x 1.5" thk. {Correction: 2.2" thk} with max amps at 7.6 http://shop.altenergystore.com/itemdesc~product~Gepvp%2D200+200w+24v+Solar+Panel~ic~GEP200GEPVP%2D200~eq~~Tp~.htm

Bottom Line - you don't have expandable solar panels like a sattelite (but if it interests you, you could design them with me if you like!) and - you are not just powering a radio transmitter like a sattelite! So - you need a LOT more power than you could get in a 6 - 8 hour period in a fixed roof + hood + truck coverage of solar cells.

Better Fuel efficincy gains can be had by going with aerodynamic improvements done right - like Phil Knox's streamlined 1994 Toyota Tacoma pickup - http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=870 (newer article. - an older version of the story can be found here: http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=774 )

Robert

xcel
05-29-2006, 05:07 PM
Hi Robert:

___Interesting information on PV’s! With a B or C sized sub-compact converted to EV using ~ 200 Wh/mile, what would a PV installation cost to take one maybe 40 miles RT per day w/ a 70% DoD and how far north could it be installed before the PV installation cost becomes prohibitive? I would love to own a PHEV or EV for my wife given the EV efficiency is still mostly in tact no matter how disconnected her FE driving skill is vs. “just driving it”.

___One of the best EV conversions Dan and I saw at the Tour Del Sol this year was this EV converted Toyota Echo called the eVERMONT using an Azure Dynamics drive system.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/516/Echo_EV.JPG

___HyMotion was up at the Tour Del Sol with their PHEV based Prius II and hopefully they will have the PHEV FEH at Hybridfest 2006 this summer in Madison.

___In regards to aero mods for a P/U’s and sedan’s to reach for ever higher FE, I believe we can all achieve higher results with technique and minor setup vs. a full blown science project. See sig. 2,500 miles of her LMPG was achieved while hauling the 5,000 # dual axled landscape trailer and gear around my locale. I have to load up a 60” mower later on this evening after the latest storm passes and will take a pic of the entire setup …

___Good Luck

___Wayne

mds2
05-31-2006, 06:06 PM
I installed a home 6.1kw PV system several years ago. It is built up from 40 Sharp 185w panels and produces about 30kwh per day averaged over the year. The thing works great and I am really glad to have it. The panels have increased in price this past year due to demand in Japan and Europe. In fact, the high efficiency 185w panels that I use are no longer available in the USA - all production is consumed abroad. Sharp now supplies their less efficient panels to us USA peon customers now. :confused:

Wayne, to run your example you are probably going to need a 2.5kw system assuming 4 hours per day averaged over the year (10kwh per day average). I average about 5 hours in the San Francisco bay area. At today's prices this is going to run about $20k from a discount supplier. Installation labor not included.

The system would be grid tied so it will be running your home electric meter backwards during the day. You take that power back from the grid while charging the car overnight.

PS: Likely the sun shines more than 4 hours per day. But you will not get full use of those hours due to low sun angle in the morning and afternoon, non optimal panel mounting inclination angle during the year, any shading from trees, dust and dirt on the panels, and other losses. So the number of "full power hours per day" averaged over the year, that takes into account all such losses, is what is important.

save_gas_now
09-21-2006, 11:16 PM
Of Course some have seen the 'Solar Prius' at Tree Hugger, I think - with the 3 Solar Panels on the roof. It Has some apparent benefit. Overall I would like to see a package deal something like this:

1 - You buy the New House you wanted - It comes with a Full Net Zero Solar Electric (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/09/best_solarpower.php) Grid tied and Off Grid Storage for Emergency and Peak Filling. {translation = what it takes from the grid at night - it restores to the grid during the day, using Solar & Wind on site.}
2 - The Garage has the Solar/PHEV you need that gives you the {all Electric} Range you need to Get to work, and - the house is close to work so you don't mess it all up with a 90 mile a day commute.
3 - Besides the Electricity part - The house has full Solar Sun, Air, and Water (http://www.solarnightstore.com/?gclid=CJu7tJOvwIcCFRieWAodGjNFbQ) Designs built in to reduce the otherwise excess loads to the PV and Grid (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/09/the_350_diy_sol.php) and reduce the wasted power needs from both.
4 - Re-Zone homes to reduce taxes on those that eliminate need for more grid generated power, and increase them on those that blindly go about the old ways of simply consuming more and more, while providing nothing!

A bit extreme, maybe - but - if you ever started rolling tires along as a kid - you know it takes a lot ofe energy (if your a little kid) to get it to stay up and keep rolling - but - if you get a bit of a down slope - it gets easier - and with just a tap/brush/nudge - you can get it going faster, and faster!

This is what is the picture with global warming/warning! (http://www.hugg.com/story/California-sues-automakers-global-warming-damages/) Fuel prices don't matter much when you whole house is flooded, (aka New Orleans), or a forest fire takes out your town! (My Parents home and brothers trailer and home, were nearely roasted in early spring this year - big forest fire - before 'fire season'!)

Or - it's like the warmer it gets from us stinking up the air with crud, the quicker we get toasted! It's time to start clearing the air (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/09/branson_to_inve.php), before we all get fried! Since Polar Ice Caps (http://www.hugg.com/story/Arctic-ice-melt-shocks-scientists/) are our planets air conditioner, it would be best if it doesn't get burned out!

Robert

save_gas_now
09-22-2006, 01:17 AM
Moving Forward!! Right Direction!

Wind Turbine to Supplement Wind Energy to Maple Honda Dealership (http://www.canadianautodealer.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=82&Itemid=4&lang=).

More info from You TUBE (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=search_videos&search_query=fox&search_sort=relevance&search_category=26) - second video on the page.
Robert

Jimmy
06-11-2008, 07:49 AM
Very well written and thought-provoking post.

In my opinion, PHEVs and all-electric EVs are the way to go for the automobile industry and for the consumer. With the rapid advancement of battery technology, only the indifference of automobile executives and our political leaders will delay the inevitable.

pcs0snq
06-22-2008, 02:21 PM
I started a new threaded related to this. I'm an electrical engineer that has worked about 30 years in the power plant. Fossil fuel power plants. I'm still looking for a meaningfully read on what energy is need to charge a 4 seater real deal EV car to go a distance at a normal speed like 60mph. The cost of ele is based on kwatt-hrs. The efficiency of power into the charge and at the end power used to travel 100 miles will never be the same. Losses are in every spot in the system from the A/C power cord from the charger, to the components in the charger and cord from the charger to the car.

For those that are truly interested in the clean aspect. Let me tell you the projections for moving the base generation in the USA from coal and oil fuel and older boiler steam generation to combined cycle natural gas are not close to reality. When I get a feel for the Power needed to go some distance, I'll look into comparing the emissions a typical power plant generates to make that power needed and see how that compares to a decent engine like the L series 1.5 eng in my Honda Fit.

donee
06-22-2008, 04:14 PM
Hi Pcs0snq

Well your typical Prius sized, good aerodynamic car is going to need like 13 HP to cruise in level terrain, windless day at 60 mph. 13 * 746 (w/hp) is 9698 watts, or 9.7 KW. A mile takes 1/60 of a hour. So, to go one mile at 60 in a Prius is .162 KWH.

Now in the real world, there is wind and hills. So, double that for a safety factor, or .324 kwh. Times 100 for the 100 mile range and you your at 32.4 KWH. Which sounds about right, as the PHEV Prius is like a 10 mile EV range with a 3 KWH battery.

donee
06-22-2008, 04:30 PM
Hi Pcs0snq,

At 60 mph, your Fit is getting maybe 40 mpg. 100 miles is 2.5 gallons. A gallon of gas has 125000 BTU's. Using http://www.onlineconversion.com/energy.htm that converts to 91.6 KWH.

So, the electric car is 91.6/(.85*32.4) = 3.3 times as efficient. Using .85 for the energy effieincy of the motors and Li Ion batteries.

Of course that is not the whole story. If the electricity is generated by a local Wind Turbine or Solar Panel, it is the whole story. If its a remote solar panel of wind turbine, multiply the 3.3 by .85 for the transmission losses, or 2.8 times as efficient. But from a fuel source, one needs to consider the effiency of the power plant. Say its a coal fired 50 % efficient plant with a local source of coal. Then the Power Plant / EV system is 3.3 * .85 * .5 or 1.4 times as efficient than the FIT. Put the coal transporation in there and its probably matching the Fit. The Prius at 55 mpg at 60 is actually similar to the EV off a coal plant (although a Prius in SHM at 50 to 55 mph is at 65 plus mpg).

But being electric, there is a pathway to make it better. With a chance to be up to 2.4 times as efficient at the Prius.

Now these are back-of-napkin estimations. And there may not be enough detail, or accuracy. But I hope this illustrates the issues.

scutcomb
06-22-2008, 05:51 PM
Dear Wayne,
Your inspirational data on hypermiling with hybrids led me to think HCH-II was the car for me, yet more reading revealed they don't have the architecture to be easily converted to PHEV, as Prius does. Nevertheless, I would love to see you or the gang post some data on achievable MPG in PHEVs to contrast with the data for production hybrids. Would this have to come from that small set of PHEV owners who have purchased the expensive conversion kits from Hymoyion, etc? It would be very inspiring to see this data! I'd be willing to do most driving at 35 mph and below if it meant a basically electric car with little or no gas consumption, because like many Californians now, I have some solar power to spare from a residential PV array and would just LOVE to reduce my carbon footprint further. In the meantime, we bike instead of drive for errands and work commute. :)

Steve C., solar owner in want of a PHEV

bestmapman
06-23-2008, 12:03 AM
Hi and welcome to the forum. You have a great idea on achievable MPG numbers. We would have to get our hands on a PHEV to do that.

I am interested in learning more about your solar array. I live in Kentucky, but am planning to build a new home in the near future and would like to install a solar array.

Could you post more on your solar array.

Shiba3420
06-23-2008, 08:49 AM
I'd like to point out something a bit annoying...solar arrays and EV/PHEVs aren't necessarily a good mix for electrical companies (I'll call EC).

Lets look at it from 2 perspectives...off grid (which may include additional sceneries) and on grid;

On grid is the easiest...
During the day, you probably produce excess electricity, which is good, but at night, the grid (electric companies) become your batteries. ECs don't seem to have as much excess capacity as we would wish, and ultimately their power isn't very green. Even if you buy green power specifically, that power is still allowed to count towards legislation where we want to see the EC generate X% clean/renewable power, so your taking from the general mix and giving to yourself, but without any real benefit to society, unless the power company you buy from guarantees a percentage of the money goes into increasing that type of power. So, on average, the power is x% dirty, and thats a big percentage right now, so EV/PHEV cars aren't as clear as end users would like to think. Even if the power were all clean, there wouldn't be enough capacity in the system if everyone switched tomorrow.


Off grid is more difficult.
First, off grid could also include people who are on-grid with their own batteries. Simply put, your extra power goes into the batteries until full and then into the grid. We will assume that you stay on batteries until they are drained and then you either sit in the dark or get from an EC (see above). When you charge your batteries, some (a lot) of that energy is wasted through heat and other inefficiencies. When you get home as night, your PVs aren't charging the batteries any more so you have to live off what you have stored. You plug in your car, and the power is transferred from your home's batteries to your car's batteries. Even if you charge DC to DC (battery to battery) you will loose more power just as you did during the day when you charged the house's batteries. So you either need more batteries in your home to make up the difference (and possibly more PV panels), or you go on grid at some point to finish powering the house during the night. Either way, you end up wasting a lot of the PV's power and, maybe, having to purchase more (fairly environmentally unfriendly) batteries.


So, you shouldn't get an EV/PHEV, right? No, go for it. The cars will enter the market fairly slowly. Even if people are pushing and shoving to but them, it will take a large number of years to push the old gas models out and put enough load on the grid to hurt it. If ECs start getting pushed for more energy, they could start implementing smarter power where certain devices (like car chargers) are turned off until they have enough power to accommodate. In addition, we are adding more green power all the time, and if we don't retire old plants we should have increasing levels of power available. At some point, and it might not happen for another 30/50 years, all our power should be green and there should be enough for all of us and our cars. Frankly I think the more we push the electric loads, the sooner we will have a cleaner grid. Dirty plants are being discouraged and green plants are being fast-tracked, so the more demand we put on the system, the more the ECs will take advantage and build up their green power and distribution systems. Also, more demand may allow higher electric costs, which may sound bad, but more money to the power companies will allow them to build faster.

So, who is going to build my next car/PHEV?



Copyright 2006 Clean MPG, LLC. All Rights Reserved.