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The right hybrid for the tough times ahead ? (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/automobiles/autoreviews/15honda-insight.html)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/2010_Honda_Insight-II.jpgJERRY GARRETT - New York Times - Feb. 12, 2009

Yet another review of the second generation Insight. Many of us just can't wait until it gets released into the wild to see what it can really do! -- Ed.

In designing the 2010 Insight, Honda’s goal was to create a hybrid car that was not just practical, but would be priced within reach of eco-conscious buyers on a budget, providing a greener choice to customers who cannot afford a Civic Hybrid or a Toyota Prius. That may sound easy, but it was perhaps a more daunting challenge than it seems. Consider that a hybrid gasoline-electric car is a fairly complicated machine, given all its batteries, electric motors, sensors, clutches and so forth. For instance, in the current-generation Prius, 370 patents cover the drivetrain alone. No wonder most hybrids are priced thousands of dollars above the equivalent gasoline models.

Also, recent gains in the Japanese yen against the dollar are putting upward pricing pressure on the Insight, which Takeo Fukui, Honda’s president, has said he wants to hold below $20,000 for the base model.

Although Honda will not announce prices until shortly before the new Insight goes on sale in early April, the numbers take on added importance as Toyota prepares to sell a redesigned Prius, which is expected to get better mileage, later in the spring. If the Insight can’t beat the Prius on economy, it will need to be a compelling value… http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/automobiles/autoreviews/15honda-insight.html

The base model needs to be in the $17's before destination charge. If it is more than that, it is overpriced IMO. I have a feeling from Fukui's statment, the LX will be in the $19k's. :(


They are not going to sell as many as they think with a high price and low EPA MPG ratings.

I think gas prices will determine how they sell!!! H

I think Harold is right. I don't see a $20k hybrid making much impact in the current fuel environment. The payback time against current fuel prices in almost infinite.

IMHO, this is the reason we badly need some sort of fuel policy which would impose an extra tax on high consumption, both residential and automotive. We are never going to have a consistent development and marketing program for fuel efficient cars with our current. The income could could be used to reduce the national debt. Of course this assumes that we trust an extra tax dollar inside the Washington beltway ;-) (I just said we needed it - I didn't say I knew how to make it work)

Hi Manuel:

___I had some lengthy back and forth E-Mails with Jerry as he was driving the Insight-II from LA to Utah. He had FE concerns as his wife driving was achieving the EPA and he was as well until one stretch where it pushed up into the mid 60's area.

___Anyway, at his own expense, he flew into LA and drove an Insight out to the Sundance Film Festival with his wife for the review. This is above and beyond what we experienced in AZ two months ago and I was thankful that he took it upon himself to do this. As of this writing, he has more Insight-II seat time than any journalist in the world.

___His review was far less entertaining than the E-Mails and it is too bad he could not let loose like we all do in personal replies :)

___Either way, I believe Jerry missed the smallish rear seat cap (it is really really tight) as well as Fit comparison and estimated pricing. What he did give was a good write-up on what the Insight is and what it is not. Better than any of the reviews I have read so far in fact!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I'll be the disagreeing voice here (but then, aren't I always? Har har!)

I think the Insight-II is a fantastic concept when you DON'T compare it to a Prius. If you compare it to a Honda Fit, the Insight-II looks pretty good.

Fit Sport: $17k, 105 HP, ~31 MPG
Insight-II: $19k, 98 HP, ~41 MPG

So for $2k more, and only slightlly less power, you get 25% more fuel economy. What's not to like?

Hi Indigo:

___The Insight-II Base is almost an exact match to the Fit Base minus IMA of course. $15,500 vs. $18 - $20K. The new IMA is not worth $4,500 by any stretch let alone the Fit is larger on the inside for rear seat passengers. Consider the 5-mpg the Fit lost because Honda shoved in a hopped up 1.5L with poor gearing. 5-mpg at least! Sure it will trounce the Insight-II to the next stop light but for what :ccry:

___All said, the MSRP of an Insight-II Base at $17K is a bargain. $18K, it is an ok value. $19K is overpriced. $20K? Forget about it.

___Like you, I am waiting for the final release pricing to finish off the previews value rating.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Manuel:

___I had some lengthy back and forth E-Mails with Jerry as he was driving the Insight-II from LA to Utah. He had FE concerns as his wife driving was achieving the EPA and he was as well until one stretch where it pushed up into the mid 60's area.

___Anyway, at his own expense, he flew into LA and drove an Insight out to the Sundance Film Festival with his wife for the review. This is above and beyond what we experienced in AZ two months ago and I was thankful that he took it upon himself to do this. As of this writing, he has more Insight-II seat time than any journalist in the world.

___His review was far less entertaining than the E-Mails and it is too bad he could not let loose like we all do in personal replies :)

___Either way, I believe Jerry missed the smallish rear seat cap (it is really really tight) as well as Fit comparison and estimated pricing. What he did give was a good write-up on what the Insight is and what it is not. Better than any of the reviews I have read so far in fact!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

He also wrote a sidebar about P&G which appeared next to that article on the front page of the Automotive section:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/automobiles/15MILEAGE.html

It was disappointing:

(1) "Pulse the accelerator for 8 to 10 seconds, then let off until the bar graph hits 100. Repeat." No mention of doing it within an mpg range and modifying the range to accommodate traffic.

(2) "I might have achieved better economy except I adhered to these rules: I stayed within all posted minimum and maximum speed limits; I did no drafting (following big trucks closely to reduce wind resistance). I kept the engine running at all times and the transmission in Drive." - as pointed out here many times, we adhere to the max and min limits (I NEVER drop to the 40mph min on I-95), and at these speeds the trucks are all blasting by so there would be no possibility of drafting them even if we thought it safe, which it isn't

(3) "This herky-jerky driving style is, according to Wayne Gerdes, a Chicago-based fuel economy expert, a variation of what hypermilers call the “high-speed pulse and glide.”" Herky-jerky doesn't adequately describe it; the speed variations are gradual. In fact in the Insight my speed variations are minimal because I use terrain-based P&G to avoid getting into assist and paying the later mpg penalty to recharge the battery.

(4) "and running with the engine off disables the power steering and the power-brake assist" - simply untrue for many cars now, including the Insight I and II, Prius, HCH, and Fit to name a few. Frankly I'd like to see PS and PB vanish, but unless cars get smaller we may be stuck with them.

If automotive writers have this much difficulty comprehending how cars work and explaining these relatively straightforward concepts, one wonders how much to believe of what other journalists write???

Hi John:

___Damn it!!! I spent over two hours by E-Mail to make sure he knew what to do and what to expect and it is to bad he did not pick up my instructions to the letter :(

___The speed limits stuff he did not get and where in the hell did he pick that up from??? He said the next time he is in Chicago; he would let me know so we can give a proper clinic.

___With regards to FAS'ing, I explained it in a manner that it is a very advanced technique along with the pros and cons. He just did not get it right let alone the 164 mpg was the average in the Insight Marathon.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Wayne & Indigo;

I absolutely agree. Pricing is a major determinant for the success of the HI-II.

I believe the temptation to preemptively derive a US MSRP from the Japanese pricing is very high and from the early attempts we arrive to the $20K mark without much effort.
However, for those of us who had a chance to look at the 2010 Insight and compare to the FIT on the same display floor, several things were somewhat evident.

The most notable were manufacturing touches and other materials related differences that made the FIT look more solid and less flimsy than the Insight. I noticed this not only on the inner plastic panels but their fitting with the metal structure of the vehicle.
The carpeting seemed a bit thinner and the patterned/templated/trim/lining panel cuts also appeared less complex.
Signs of visible sound insulation also appeared to be somewhat lower on the Insight.
Weld points around the hatch and other areas around the car appeared to be fewer and coarser. Not by much, but noticeable enough for some of us.Granted, we were likely looking at pre-production batches that were meant for not much more than display purposes... but at the same time, I believe what some of us saw is indicative of the implicit design decisions Honda made with the overruling goal of making this car very affordable.
From my point of view, the FIT will remain the main sub-compact bread winner for Honda and the Insight will have to be the slightly more expensive alternative for those who want the most affordable hybrid ever.
Honda can probably price the base HI-II below $20K (at least I hope so) but the pricing must also give Honda the head-room to slightly manipulate the price up or down as a function of the demand. There's no real limit for manufacturing countless FITs, but there are still real limits for manufacturing HI-IIs, with the battery packs being the perennial spoiler. For this I expect the base HI-II to be priced a fair bit higher than a reasonably equipped FIT.
Hopefully if the demand for the HI-II is weak, Honda can adjust it low enough to make it more tempting to buyers without eroding the company's bottom line on the new model line. From what I gather, and judging from the "cheap factors" I noted above, Honda may have already built-in this lattitude.

Only time will tell I guess.

Cheers;

MSantos

Hi All:

___This is even better...


Hi Jerry:

I cannot speak directly about your recent drives given your location (NY?) in mid-winter given I believe it would be tough for a great driver to pull 65 mpgUS from an Insight-II (2010 Honda Insight), HCH-II (Honda Civic Hybrid Second Gen) or a Prius-I/II without a lengthy drive to remove their particular and in the case of the Prius, somewhat peculiar S1 though S4, warm-up hits.

Let us start by talking about the first generation Insight. That vehicle was a work of art from the engine and drivetrain to its air cheating sculpted body. Too bad more people did not like it although with the creature comfort and utility sacrifices, both of us know why it was a sales disappointment. I loved mine however and to this day wish I still had it.

Unfortunately or not, the (2006 ?) Honda Insight-I w/ a CVT that was at the Insight-II – Long Lead Preview is not nearly as capable as the 2000 – 2006 Honda Insight-I with a 5-speed manual due to a few differences.
The CVT equipped Insight-I lacks lean-burn for the highway fuel economy boost.
The CVT implementation is nowhere near as efficient as the stick in any driving scenario I can think of.
The CVT added another 100 pounds to the Insight’s 1.0L which struggled somewhat to overcome this.
By comparison to the 2010 Honda Insight-II, the 2001 – 2006 Honda Insight-I with a CVT is almost 750 pounds lighter, has a smaller fontal area, lower Cd, lower RRc Bridgestone RE92’s, and still includes the extremely efficient 3-cylinder, 1.0L ICE. This is why the 2010 Insight-II will never be able to compete with the Insight-I with a CVT let alone the real thoroughbred, the Insight-I with a stick.

Now consider the 03 – 05 HCH-I (Honda Civic Hybrid Second Gen) with lean-burn (non-SULEV) variant vs. the 2010 Honda Insight-II. That HCH-I w/ the CVT and Insight-II weigh essentially the same while the HCH-I with a stick weighs almost 75 pounds less. The HCH-I’s Bridgestone B381’s have a lower RRc than the Insight-II’s Dunlop SP37’s while the HCH-I’s Cd and Insight-II are equal at 0.28. Frontal area of the HCH-I may be 5% larger as a guess? Where the fuel economy differences lye is in the Lean-burn capability of the HCH-I. It is not uncommon to see a 15 mpg jump in highway Fuel Economy when lean-burn was entered into while behind the wheel of the HCH-I. The 1.3L iDSI in the Insight-II has its own unique fuel economy efficiencies with the dual spark controlling the burn even better than the previous iDSI and unique to the Insight-II, Atkinson mode but in my experience while driving lean-burn capable Insight’s and HCH-I’s vs. the HCH-II’s across the country any number of times and my short time behind the wheel of the Insight-II, the Insight-I and HCH-I (both with Lean-burn) will take the HCH-II and Insight-II out to the woodshed on any lengthy drive in which lean-burn can be taken advantage of.


Now consider the 06 – 09 HCH-II. Its largest saving grace is it has 10% taller gearing than the 2010 Insight-II. I was wondering about this given the RPM’s I saw at 60 mph during the long drive segment in Carefree, AZ were higher than those of the World Record Civic Hybrid I was driving the previous 30-days. That was until we received the gear ratio update from Sage Marie just before the preview embargo was lifted. On the negative side, the HCH-II has to carry around an extra 150 pounds. In terms of aero-drag, the HCH-II’s larger frontal area is canceled by its .01 lower Cd when compared to the 2010 Insight-II so that one is a wash. I am not sure about the HCH-II’s Dunlop SP31’s or Bridgestone Insignia SE200’s vs. the Insight-II’s SP37’s but I suspect the HCH-II’s RRc’s are lower?

Once the HCH-II is rolling, its taller gearing and lower RRc tires will beat the 2010 Insight-II with regards to Highway Fuel Economy. In an urban area however, the Insight-II should beat the HCH-II’s fuel economy given the CVT is much improved (Quicker and Smoother) in those we drove in Arizona, the ECO-Assist background speedometer colors is so much easier to use than any Honda Hybrid’s i and aFCD or LOD and IGN timing when ScanGauge-II equipped and because it is that much lighter.

Which brings us back to your experiences. Did Honda give you a 2010 Insight-II Press Vehicle for a longer review period already? If so, you rate my friend :)

In my short time behind the wheel of the Insight-II, the ECO button and its 5-fuel efficiency enhancing parameters would not really help a hypermiler. It can in fact hurt fuel economy in one particular instance. That being the increase in Regen Affinity with the ECO-Button engaged. Hypermilers try to stay away from Assist and Regenerative braking as much as possible unless we absolutely have to use them. There are methods of regenerative braking engagement that grab a few more Watts and makes for a healthier pack longevity wise but that technique is beyond this reply...

The “Herky Jerky” acceleration method you were using may be a cold temperature issue for both the pack and the CVT? Honda protects the pack with the CVT and the ICE ECU so you may have to force it into the taller portions of the gearing range with that into, off of and slightly back into the throttle again. I am not sure exactly as I have not driven the Insight-II in colder weather or on your commute?

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Insight-II -- Basic/Intermediate Hypermiling Techniques

Glide mode...

This is the key to the HCH-II’s and Insight-II’s success for an intermediate skilled driver.

What happens during the “Glide” is you have little to no current going into or coming out of the pack and the 1.3L iDSI’s 8-valves are bottle up tight. You are not using the Insight-II’s EV mode (Valves bottled up and the pack providing current to maintain a lower speed to) as this is a somewhat lossy solution to higher fuel economy in the HCH-II and Insight-II. DO NOT rely on EV or your Fuel Economy will be less than using the engine when accelerating and “Gliding” when you can coast down. The payback of a Forced Charging event is an absolute Fuel Economy killer.

You want to evoke a Glide on any downhill while maintaining speed or when coasting down to a stop light, sign or impediment ahead. The Insight-II’s analog Charge/Assist meter and the smallish iFCD within the small MFD should provide a reasonably good representation of whether you have entered into a proper glide or not. The charge/assist needle will lye in the horizontal and the iFCD will be pegged. I saw this any number of times in Arizona with the Insight-II. Because the HCH-II’s digital SoC and charge/assist are almost within your line of site without swapping an MFD around, the HCH-II is easier to transition into and out of the various EV/Glide modes available because of somewhat superior instrumentation in this regard only. Once either vehicle is warmed up, you should never see a failure in the HCH-II or the Insight-II as I have driven the HCH-II in temps below 0 degrees F and Gliding always works. It will take some practice but you will find this in the in the Insight-II. It may take a lighter touch then you are currently used too however. I would recommend removing your shoes for better feel of the accelerator pedal while learning how to drive the Insight-II into and out of a Glide.

Speeds between 23 and 40 mph

This is an area where the HCH-II and Insight-II really show their stuff. What you want to see is the tach at ~ 1,100 RPM and the iFCD hanging into the 80 – 110 mpg range while still moving down the road at a reasonably steady state speed. When this type of traffic condition or road way speed limit allows, you want to hang on to this for as long as humanly possible as this is where the big numbers arrive. Any brakes or sudden accel blows this mode out so you want to create a buffer and work at closing it up and rebuilding no matter the traffic scenario ahead. The oscillating buffer will give you the ability to maintain this excellent high fuel economy scenario even in somewhat heavy traffic...

“Green is Good”

You probably experienced this in Arizona. If you keep the speedometer background green during both your accelerations and decelerations, you are already achieving well into the basic/intermediate levels of hypermiling fuel economy quality. Traffic conditions will sometimes not warrant such light accelerations or decelerations. I could write an entire chapter on taking control of traffic from behind to help everyone as well as maneuvering away or around those that just don’t get it from either the front or the rear but that will have to come at another time.

Taking Control of the ICE at slower speeds

You can Glide down to around 11 mph but below that, the injectors will come back online. Unless you are coming to a stop, you may have to use an advanced technique I call FAS or Forced Auto Stop. If you are not coming to a complete stop but can glide for let us say 150 or so feet, as soon as you hit 12 mph, FAS by placing the Insight-II into N at the same time you place the Key to IG-I shutting down the ICE, wait a second and bring the key back to IGN II for your safety equipment to come back online. This is a very advanced technique and there are both positives and negatives to its use so do not go into this willy nilly without a much better understanding than what I am giving you here. In certain traffic situations and roadway conditions, it is the best technique you have given some of the HW limitations of Honda’s IMA. IN others, it is the last thing you want to do. Again, it depends on conditions and you really need to practice this technique in a wide-open back country road or parking lot until it becomes second nature.

On the other hand, if you know you are going to stop and have judged the deceleration properly, what you want to do is hold your glide down to 12 mph, allow some regen simply by letting off the accelerator gently until you see a small charge heading into the pack down to 7-mph. At that 7-mph, you gently and I mean gently touch the brake just enough to light up your brake lights. You are really not braking but at that point, you will go into AS (Auto Stop). You continue to hold this very light touch on the brake as the ICE shuts down and the CVT lets loose. You can glide for half a block or so to a stop while not burning any fuel and simply letting up on the brake will reignite the engine to continue on your way when the impediment clears ahead.

SAHM or Super Atkinson Highway Mode

This one can be seen via the OEM FCD but it is best to use a ScanGauge-II and watch both LOD and IGN. Hold LOD below 50% and maintain IGN between 29 and 37. The HCH-II will allow 70 to 90 mpg at slower highway speeds. I did not have the ability to connect a ScanGauge-II up in Arizona other then for a shorter segment so I cannot say for sure where its SAHM mode lyes but given my 2.4L Accord, 1.5L equipped Fit’s, 1.8L equipped Civics, and the 1.3L equipped HCH-II’s have it, I can bet Seki and his team have allowed the same with the Insight-II. An intermediate technique but you will need a ScanGauge-II with the aFCD X-Gauge and standard iFCD, IGN and LOD displayed to take advantage of it. This is mainly what we used for the 48-Contiguous State World record drive in the HCH-II just before the Insight-II – Long Lead Preview in Arizona.

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I just gave you a mini-treatise on Hypermiling the Insight-II but it will take some practice for both you and your wife. If you need any more assistance, pass me a note or give me a call.

The next time you are in Chicago, give Chuck Schifsky a call and maybe he can arrange to have an Insight-II available so I can give a proper Hypermiling clinic. I will CC him this note (I mean book :)) as a heads up “if” you ever do make it out to Chicago sometime this summer...

In the mean time, I am providing you a few links that should help bring you up to speed with regards to the Insight-II and hopefully with better detail and clarity.


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CleanMPG Previews the 2010 Honda Insight-II (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18649)

2010 Honda Insight-II - Specifications (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18651)

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CleanMPG Reviews the 2008 Honda Civic Hybrid (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15422)

2006 - 2009 Honda Civic Hybrid - Specifications (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245)

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2003 - 2005 Honda Civic Hybrid CVT/MT - Specifications (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274)

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Beating the EPA - The Why’s and How to Hypermile (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1510)

Adapting Basic Hypermiling_Techniques to the HCH-II (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1306)

HCH-II - SAHM "Super Highway Mode" (70 - 90 MPG) ( http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14295)

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What determines the assist affinity on the HCH-II? (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14295)

A Hybrid Owner’s winter survival guide (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17560)

The Honda Civic Hybrid FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18185)

Driving Under Pressure (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11652)

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___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi All:

___#2...


Hi Jerry:

Good for you in being able to take the Insight out on a longer drive and that was quite creative if I do say so myself :)

The temps and conditions were not in your favor but the FE achieved in the last segment per the technique you described is called a HS P&G. It works spectacularly in a number of conditions with light loads but once heavily landed with snow and slush, it usually does not? It is the most advanced of techniques and if the last 80-miles had a total decline, that would help explain it. What I have seen in the IMA equipped Hybrids is for every elevation decline of 1,000’, you an usually pick up 5 to 7 mpg over a flat terrain average after a 75 to 100 mile segment.

An interesting data point that can show how extreme a descent can skew fuel economy follows.

During the 48-Contiguous State WR, we stopped at a Chevron Station for a quick break just North of the NV/CA border on State Route 95 at an elevation of 2,550 feet. Over the next 32 miles, we dropped to 800’ (1,750’ delta) into Needles, CA for the final fill. The HCH-II’s FCD was pegged at 150 mpg. Per the ScanGauge-II, we achieved 164 mpg for the 32 mile segment whereas the entire trip averaged just 68.5 mpg with an elevation delta of ~ 200’ climb over the entire 7,560 miles. An elevation delta can really help or hurt so that may help explain what you experienced although a P&G routine in the rolling hills could lead to a 65 + mpg segment as well.

You will have to do a some work on your start and finish elevations to conclude it was a High Speed Pulse and Glide (HS P&G) technique at work, elevation at work or a combination of the two. Google is great for this as you can swap from map mode to elevation mode with a single click.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi All:

___#3...


Hi Jerry:

I was putting out a the small fires that showed up in my forums regarding rumors from “other” supposedly knowledgeable automotive sites believing the Insight-II would achieve Insight like fuel economy. CleanMPG’s membership including myself had originally hoped for fantastic fuel economy when the existence of the vehicle known as “Insight” first became known but as the basic specs started leaking out of Japan about a year ago, I began to see Honda’s direction with it. Knowing it was going to be an inexpensive 5-seater before we actually had the chance to drive and see the specs in AZ, my members were onboard as to what it was and what it was not going to be. I still expected a backlash from the more animated members but that did not appear. I prepped my moderators just before the embargo date was lifted with a full look at both the preview write-up and video preview plus the Slide Show of the pics in a private forum. I did this so they (the moderators) could handle anyone that would possibly cause a problem due to disappointment while I was in Detroit for the 2009 NAIAS Press Event.

To answer your questions, the 2010 Insight-II will come nowhere near the 2000 – 2006 Insight due to a number of technical issues relating to the way vehicles are built to make a profit nowadays.

Here are a few metrics to help explain.

There are three members including myself that own or did own original Insights with a lifetime fuel economy of greater than 90 mpg. That includes year-round driving in Chicago, Minneapolis and Dallas over tens of thousands of miles. I suspect the Insight-II with the best hypermiler behind its windscreen will see a lifetime in the mid-60’s at best.

During various fuel economy championships around the country, the original Insight has been driven to greater than 200 mpg on round trip driving loops a number of times. The 2010 Insight-II will be lucky to see 100 mpg. The 2006 HCH-II saw 103 mpg on a less constrictive driving loop than the one we drove in Arizona and I suspect the Insight-II will top out in a similar range as well?

At the Carefree, AZ fuel economy driving loop, the best I could pull from the 2010 Insight-II using “Advanced” techniques on the Honda/Apex course while still maintaining times in the 30 to 34 minute range was 78.9 mpg in 70 + degree Fahrenheit temperatures. Basic and Basic/Intermediate techniques allowed 66.x and 69.x mpgUS respectively (both in 60 degree temps). Temperatures really do make a big difference. I did not have the opportunity to do a competitive level drive but I suspect it would have offered 85 or so mpg as a best guess?

On the 53-mile long scenic loop, the Insight offered 72.6 mpg whereas my driving partner pulled 46.x mpg on the way back driving it like he stole it. Read my preview for the “alternate” driving style descriptions as I bored him to tears and he scared the “hell” out of me J

It is hard to speak of the Insight-II without comparing it to the Prius-II or upcoming -III. The Prius-II in the hands of a good hypermiler will destroy the Insight-II in any congested urban setting. There is nothing a Honda driver can do no matter how good he or she is. IMA is simply to crude to take on the Prius’ HSD in a stop and crawl. The original Insight however can keep up in a similar traffic condition but the amount of work involved is far beyond “most” drivers tolerance. A side note... The Prius’ Warm-up routine can destroy its fuel economy potential in colder climates. Until it has reached normal operating temps, its fuel economy in my realm is abysmal and only by using very advanced techniques to alleviate its particular and somewhat peculiar warm-up hit can bring it back.

While on the highway however, the Insight-II will beat a 2004 – 2009 Prius-II. Prius’ are extremely hard to take over 70 + mpg (advanced instrumentation is needed) as well as a lot of concentration and patience whereas the IMA equipped Insight-II and HCH-II are a lot easier to do as the 72.x mpg scenic drive achieved in AZ last month shows. The 2010 Prius-III may change all of this given the large percentage increase in highway fuel economy vs. the second generation. I suspect Toyota is exploiting what we call “Super Highway Mode” (SHM) with the larger engine to handle power requirements at even lower RPM’s with higher highway fuel economy available as the result. Hopefully the NY Times has someone scheduled to attend the Prius-III - Long Lead Preview. If the journalist is not familiar with “hypermiling” and each vehicles specific nuances, he or she may not see it nor would it probably matter to him or her anyway?

And of course the Insight-II’s price vs. the Prius. The Insight-II is a stretched Honda Fit with a different body, instruments and IMA attached to a slightly modded 1.3L European/Asian ICE from my perspective. The current Prius is a stretched Corolla with a different body, instruments, a modded Echo/Yaris 1.5L and Toyota’s award winning HSD attached. The Insight-II will be priced lower than the Prius but it depends how much lower that will make or break it. The Insight-II pricing was released in Japan last night (our time) and from the looks of it, the LX will come in at $19K here in the US as a guess right now? That is a bit high when compared to the Fit base at $14.5K but still lower than the base Prius-II’s $22,000 and the 2010 base Prius-III suspected $22,750??? All said, the subcompact Insight-II is up against the mid-size Prius-II with 5 to 20% less real world fuel economy in an urban environment and 5 - 10% less real world fuel economy on the open road with a “regular” driver behind the windscreen.

To reiterate, the Insight-II will never reach the original Insight’s capability by a long shot. Although it would be nice to achieve the original Insight’s FE, we all understand what almost 900 pounds in a larger form factor will do to the efficiency of an automobile with an extremely small ICE. It will take the all-new 2010 Prius-III with a PHEV conversion, the 2011 Volt (if GM an survive until then) or a BEV like the Mitsubishi MiEV, Mini-E or 2011 Focus to finally put the original Insight to sleep for good. The European Civic iCDTi turbo-diesel came close to the original Insight and for a 5-door with all the safety gear, it would be my choice for the automobile to own today if it were available her in the US which it is not.

Links of interest that may help provide detail with much of the above...

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The_Insight Marathon 2006 -- World Record 2,254.4 miles on one tank of fuel. (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2783)

CleanMPG World Fuel Economy Championships - Records smashed (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12620)

Chicago to NY in a Prius on one tank of fuel? (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11441)

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CleanMPG reviews the 2007 Honda Civic 2.2L iCDTi Turbo Diesel (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6526)

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Price announced on 2010 Honda Insight in Japan... On sale this Friday (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19302)

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If you have any other questions, feel free to ask or call. More importantly, I hope the information provided will help your readers understand the differences between the various generations of high fuel economy vehicles. Most of which I suspect you already know :)

Good Luck
___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi All:

___Now you know why I am a bit confused as to where Jerry came up with his sidebar???

___Manuel, I remember you speaking about the build quality in Detroit and Mike and I looked over the same in Chicago. $19 or $20K still appears to me to be a bit much. Honda can do a lot of things with pricing to the dealerships like they are currently doing with the HCH-II’s but the bottom line is the consumer still sees $24K and imho, it is killing off HCH-II sales the past three months :(

___The same will be the case for the Insight-II if Honda prices this wrong up front and Honda tends to price high on initial launch with the ability to discount through dealership incentives into the 5th year at the same price as initial launch MSRP or below. When there were few that could match their quality and FE, this worked like a charm. Today however, everyone is a lot closer.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Has Jerry ever ridden with a hypermiler? I.e., is he aware that it is an extremely smooth way of driving? In the ride I had with Hobbit, I don't think I experienced > 0.01G in any horizontal direction throughout - it was really striking.

If not how about setting him up with someone in the NYC area?? I'd happily volunteer to take him for a ride in the Insight-I (or for that matter the Subaru) to show him that it isn't either herky-jerky or dangerous as he seems to think it is.

Hi John:

___He does not get it but I have held back sending him another E-Mail until I cool off a bit.

___I will see if he wants to go for a ride with a rated hypermiler in NY or in IL as he surely needs it. The garbage about going under the minimum speed limits is what really got to me. The PS and Brakes comment just shows he is uninformed as most Journalists are.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

New Fit: 117 H.P., not 105 H.P. First gen. Fit 109 H.P.
For what it's worth.
brian