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Honda's Upcoming Two-Seater is Designed to Prove Hybrids Can be Fun. (http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2009/112_0904_2011_honda_crz/index.html)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/Honda_CR-Z_Concept1.jpgPaul Horrell – Motor Trend (http://www.motortrend.com) – Feb. 8, 2009

Another MT IMA vehicle?? :D --Ed.

Honda's CRZ hybrid coupe remains on track as a 2011 model, on sale in late 2010. Honda wants sports-car enthusiasts to buy it not because it's green, but because it's fun. The carmaker considered doing a non-hybrid version of the CRZ, but it desperately wants to be seen as a hybrid supplier on par with Toyota and believes it needs a range of dedicated hybrid-only models to achieve that.

So the CRZ gets a lively 140-horse, 1.8-liter Civic-derived engine. The IMA system -- motor, battery, electronics -- will be like the Insight's, as will the platform, to save cost. A senior engineer says, "It must be fun to drive, must remind you of the original CRX." And a manual gearbox will be offered. "CVT is fine for the market, mostly. But we are Honda! We must have a manual!"

As a two-seater, the CRZ's smaller body mass versus the Insight should make up for the weight of the bigger engine, brakes, and… http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2009/112_0904_2011_honda_crz/index.html

Jeff, looks like you got your wish!!!

140 horse, 2600 lbs - wonder how the mpg will compare with the Insight I??

But I DO like the MT option.

800lbs heavier and 2x the horsepower... my guess is that it will be rated about what the HCH is but have better performance. It is probably worth over 90mpg if you know what you are doing?

You know that sound Homer Simpson makes when he's drooling over a cheeseburger with bacon, fried egg, and rich, creamery butter?

Yeah, that sound applies here.

At the Texas-sized MIMA party, I was thinking...how could Honda reintroduce the 5-speed hybrid?

In a word - software.

The CRX, Insight had upshift/downshift arrows...just make them blink and/or beep when the driver lugs or semi-lugs along with a warning DON'T LUG THE CAR - BATTERY DAMAGE WILL OCCUR.

This is what I am holding out for, haul ass when I want and get outstanding mpg when I want! :P

I'm waiting for Wayne to weigh in, after his negative comments about the useless 2 seater S2000. Here it is again, in a sanitized mini-version, as useless as t**ts on a boar. Sort of like a 4+ liter hybrid Lexus. ;)

I've grown a little weary over the years of seeing my Toyota pound its competitors into FE submission. Lately though, especially from Honda, it's like my team is taking one glorious uppercut after another.

Hit me again Honda! :)

Are the side mirrors actually that tiny or is it the effect of the picture?

That's a picture of the show car:

And yes, it has "standard" show-car not street legal side mirrors. (Take a look at the original Volt proto for another example.)

And "standard" show-car not street wise low aspect ++ sized wheels. (Ditto.)

And "standard" show-car pedestrian unfriendly bumper. (Ditto.)

So, bottom line - it's a chopped-channeled and wheelbase shortened FG2.

The engine details leave these options:

R18 (perhaps with a different head?) The probable, boring guess.
K20 with an F18 variant crank. (Perhaps deck shortened block as well?)
Or, most improbably, a three cylinder variant of the K24.

-mr. bill

Oh damn...

If this thing really does come in at under 3000 porkly lbs. and with a stick I'm sold! :cool:

Last I heard they were making it a mild hybrid? If they stick with that I'd definitely count less on real high mileage, especially in the city which is Honda's weak spot anyway. But, considering its very small frontal area, you still got a descent chance at real high mileage. I'm glad to hear this hasn't gotten canceled.

Are the side mirrors actually that tiny or is it the effect of the picture?

the camera angle could be enough to make it look that way.....

woo woo a 5 SPEED!!! if my HCH is ever paid for.......maybe......

Now if only we hadn't bought a Yaris and something that would fall apart faster. This is an excellent sounding vehicle, but I fear we'll have this Yaris for another 7 years or so before we can justify a new vehicle.

Last I heard they were making it a mild hybrid? If they stick with that I'd definitely count less on real high mileage, especially in the city which is Honda's weak spot anyway. But, considering its very small frontal area, you still got a descent chance at real high mileage. I'm glad to hear this hasn't gotten canceled.

In this case I think the mild hybrid system has the advantage of weight reduction. A smaller battery pack plus the thin IMA motor will weigh less than a battery+separate electric drive motor.

Finally! Hope for a more fun to drive Hybrid with a manual transmission.:Banane01:

Brad

Last I heard they were making it a mild hybrid? If they stick with that I'd definitely count less on real high mileage, especially in the city which is Honda's weak spot anyway. But, considering its very small frontal area, you still got a descent chance at real high mileage. I'm glad to hear this hasn't gotten canceled.It's the same kind of hybrid as the original Honda Insight.

the camera angle could be enough to make it look that way.....

woo woo a 5 SPEED!!! if my HCH is ever paid for.......maybe......

Really, the show car's (http://automobiles.honda.com/cr-z/) mirrors are improbably tiny.

And who said anything about a 5 SPEED? The unnamed senior engineer said "But we are Honda! We must have a manual!"

Personally, I'm drooling for a 6 speed. First 4 gears close ratio - 5th taller than the current 5th but shorter than the current 6th, and a still taller 6th.

-mr. bill

I'm waiting for Wayne to weigh in, after his negative comments about the useless 2 seater S2000. Here it is again, in a sanitized mini-version, as useless as t**ts on a boar. Sort of like a 4+ liter hybrid Lexus. ;)

MPG will probably be >>>21, so not comparable to the S2000 or the Lexus.

Hi All:

__Not trying to burst anyone’s bubble but the last solid CRZ rumor we heard was initial release in Europe and Asia and a $35,000 price tag. Hopefully a lot less... The 1.8L is too big for sustained 90 mpg given a competition level P&G in the std. Civic w/ a stick is worth that and the CRZ will not be that much different in terms of weight and ICE performance.

___This will not be a huge seller.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Not wanting to speak for anyone else, but the only way you would have burst my bubble is if you said anything at all nice about the CR-Z.

I'm betting the folks at Honda have a better reading of the pulse on the market. Clean, Safe, Fun. Sounds like win, win, win to me.

-mr. bill

A couple of thoughts that I had...

If you compare the size and shape of the CRX to the Insight I, you'll notice a LOT of similarities in body shape and style. I think it's possible that Honda used the same shape in the Insight I as the CRX because the CRX touted good mpgs and maybe wanted to get a few CRX fans behind the wheel in the Insight because they are very similar. And actually, the Insight I has more hp than the early base model CRXs. Just from the pictures, it looks like the CRZ is an updated body style as the CRX and Insight I. I think it's interesting the the Insight 'project' went in the direction that it did with the Insight II. Had Honda taken what they've learned with the Insight I and really made something of the CRZ, they could have really gotten a great gas sipper. I can't imagine this getting much more than 50mpgs if even that. As the article says, they pretty much just added a bunch of hybrid components to a big engine. The CRX and Insight I were always fun to drive, making it accelerate faster isn't going to really increase the fun factor.

That said, I like the look. It would be nice to have the option of a 100mpg version CRZ with reasonable size engine, MT, built in MIMA, 20Ah L-ion PHEV; a ~45mpg version CRZ as proposed; and hell... if you want power and stuff... the V8 300hp CRZ and we'll even through in a little battery pack so you can call it a hybrid and feel good!

It would be nice to have the option of a 100mpg version CRZ with reasonable size engine, MT, built in MIMA, 20Ah L-ion PHEV...

Now THAT sounds like a winner to me! :D

Hi Bill:

___As with most recent two-seat sports cars, the market penetration will be massively underwhelming, the profits will be non-existent and the possibility of high FE from the Civic’s 1.8L will be all but impossible unless IMA is completely reworked and finally clutched. I hope the CRZ reaches 40 mpg combined but given the Insight-II hits just 41 mpgUS combined with the smaller IMA and a 1.3L, I have doubts. And if it comes in at anywhere in the $30’s, it is toast.

___I also hope everyone has had a chance to see the CR-Z up close and personal... Its rear end is gorgeous but its nose is really “out there” in a non-flattering sort of way.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/2011_Honda_CRZ_Concept.jpg

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/2/Honda_CR-Z_hybrid_sports_car_concept_-_front_side_profile.jpg

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/Honda_CR-Z_Concept.jpg

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/Honda_CR-Z_hybrid_sports_car_concept.jpg

___The Nose will most likely not survive production.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I see some Formula 1 in the nose - probably by design.

Hmm well with a 1.8L engine + IMA this doesn't seem to be targeted at hypermilers. Even with modern safety features a small 2 seater should come down in weight compared to a civic coupe. With the R18+IMA the car could be a better performer than the Si just with less utility. Most cars this would run with don't even break 25 mpg combined.

This car sounds like a win-win for Honda. I'll have to await solid spec info but I think I want it already.

Plus where does this $35,000 price idea come from? Articles from other websites and mags suggested Honda wanted this to be offered at a civic Si price point.

Hi Tyler:

___IIRC, it was the Nikkei Shimbun and it discussed release pricing in Europe and Asia first. Search around here for the details as I posted them about 6-months ago.

___$22K sounds about right unless Honda goes exotic with the metals.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I wouldn't kick it out of the garage.

I think it's a sharp looking car. It's too bad no one will have a job by the time it gets here.:(

If Toyota can make the engine bigger and still improve FE, although it isn't likely given the way IMA systems have been implemented thus far, I won't rule it out until we know more tech specs.

___As with most recent two-seat sports cars, the market penetration will be massively underwhelming, the profits will be non-existent and the possibility of high FE from the Civic’s 1.8L will be all but impossible unless IMA is completely reworked and finally clutched. I hope the CRZ reaches 40 mpg combined but given the Insight-II hits just 41 mpgUS combined with the smaller IMA and a 1.3L, I have doubts. And if it comes in at anywhere in the $30’s, it is toast.


Even if the specs come is as you anticipate I wouldn't call it toast. I agree with you and a couple of the other posters that this isn't designed as a fuel sipper, but targeted more at the performance crowd. There's nothing wrong with that, and from a marketing perspective its a good thing. If you can talk someone into walking into a dealership to look at a sports-hybrid when that's the only car they have on their mind at the time, you have an opportunity to show them the rest of the product line. Maybe they can't afford a sports car, maybe the wife/girlfriend wants something that has more doors. Whatever the reason, most companies do this with their product lines.

Does GM make ANY money on the Solstice/Sky? I know they're all hand built, so I'd be surprised if they did, but those cars get people into Pontiac and Saturn dealerships that wouldn't normally be looking at anything else GM has to offer. Maybe they come out with a compact car or maybe a minivan for the wife instead of or in addition to the roadster.

If Honda ends up losing money on the CRZ it could still be worth it to the company overall, hence I think the "toast" conclusion might be unwarranted.

^ I agree with paratwa.

The STI isn't a high volume profit margin seller for Subaru. But it gets people interested in the brand. The CRZ could do the same for Honda. They've been getting plenty of flack lately on the lacking sports selection. The new TL is a failure IMO, the S2K is dying, and the Si is outperformed by everything else on the market save the Sentra.

I've heard it mentioned many times: "Honda is turning into Toyota: Bland and boring"

Hi Paratwa:

___Just like the S2000 and the Accord Hybrid before that, this one is probably going to lose a lot of $'s for Honda. It is a small 2+2.

___The Solstice/Sky are big $ losers for GM as well due to a strange uni-body build quirk and extremely low sales numbers.

___WRT a halo car, The Chevrolet Corvette will tear up anything from any company in the US other then the Viper and look what those two have done for their respective companies. If you are a mostly highway driver, the Base Vette will allow an easy 40 mpg as well! And its parent is toast :(

___Getting somebody in the door is one thing, over priced sports cars that do not sell are an albatross nowadays.

___Let me put it another way... Tim drives a Prius but would not kick the CRZ out of his garage. If gasoline was $8.00 per gallon in 2013, which vehicle would he drive? The possibly 37 mpg rated CRZ for two or the 46 mpg rated Prius for five? One only needs to look at what we “actually” drive to figure out where most of these design studies are going.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Right but if the CR-Z can come in at the same rating as: HI2 or HCHII or HCHIII then it will still fit with what we're going for here.

All I'm saying is that the PriusIII has a .3 liter bigger engine and gets better FE, its not impossible that although this one has a .5 liter bigger engine, that they won't tweak the electric motor and run the engine Atkinson, and still get great FE. Realistically that won't happen, but we are dealing with two of Japan's finest with bragging rights on the line.

How big was this in person? Fit/Insight sized or Civic sized or S2k sized (with all the hood on that bad boy something that size could be a 2+2)?

But lets give them a benefit of a doubt, then if they do the obvious route we can wail on them until the cows come home.

Hi Kacey:

___The Insight-II is an atkinsonized intake design as is the current Civic non-hybrids 1.8L. IMA's limitations are showing whereas HSD is getting better as Toyota is using the 1.8L to remove revs. The HCH-II and Insight-II are already geared pretty tall. We saw the magic that Honda used in the Insight-II was to reduce cost and it is great to see 41 mpg combined on the 08 EPA. Unfortunately, there are a number of similarly sized vehicles that will soon be right with it for far less $'s.

___If Honda starts playing with IMA output for higher acceleration rates in order to give the consumer a G-kick, the packs had better be a solid Li-Ion as the current NiMH's would be shot in short order. The MT is a great performance and longevity increasing addition to the post HCH-I w/ MT’s.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I've been following this car since the rumors started and I hope it goes to production, even if it's a small run vehicle. If it does, I'm looking forward to getting some pricing information. I'm definitely interested in it in concept, but I can't say whether I'd actually put my money where my mouth is and put out the cash for one when my Civic should be good for a very long time to come.

I can say, though, that if this thing has decent cargo capacity given it's a hatch, handles nicely, and gets an easy 50-60 mpg on the highway I'd be pretty tempted. If they are using the R18 (which given the posted numbers I assume they are) then hopefully they'll gear it higher than the Civic MT so it can come closer to meeting its FE potential, IMA system aside.

I wish it could come in at under 2800 lbs, though. Also, I agree it's gotta lose the concept nose!

If Toyota can make the engine bigger and still improve FE, although it isn't likely given the way IMA systems have been implemented thus far, I won't rule it out until we know more tech specs.

The reason Toyota can do it is because they atkinsonize the bejeezus out of the engine. The 1.5L in the Prius is sized such that most drivers, without knowing it, spin it up fast enough while accelerating and climbing to cross over into the "power" valve profile that is less efficient. Increasing to 1.8L lets it spin slower to produce the same power while keeping it further south of that nasty crossover. There isn't much of a down-side since the new car will idle even less than the outgoing model. (I'm really excited to see exhaust heat recovery in action.)

Based on the proposed specs and what we know about IMA, we will not likely see that out of the CR-Z. I will probably drool over it anyway, though.

...Its rear end is gorgeous but its nose is really “out there” in a non-flattering sort of way.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/2011_Honda_CRZ_Concept.jpg

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/2/Honda_CR-Z_hybrid_sports_car_concept_-_front_side_profile.jpg

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/Honda_CR-Z_Concept.jpg

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/Honda_CR-Z_hybrid_sports_car_concept.jpg

___The Nose will most likely not survive production.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I like how it looks but I had this front fascia on my 99 Civic Si: http://www.stillen.com/project_images/4.jpg Similar but opposite.
Top speed based on safe stopping distance: 136mph with more pedal available.


OK this is bad, not a good influence. CRZ is tempting in a dirty sort of way. I'm going outside to sit in the Metro for 8.8 seconds. It will have traveled nowhere in that amount of time. - Dale

Dale, I'm going to have to add you to my list... the one that currently has MaxxMPG on it. The one labeled, "Read Posts By This Guy To Crack a Grin Every Time" :D :D

8.8 seconds. LOL!

Glad I could help! - Dale

The good thing keeping this from tempting me is that each car swap has to be an upgrade to both FE and comfort, which my HCHII was based on my commute, and everyone knows about comfort on the outgoing model from Toyota (even Toyota, so the fixed it).

If comfort remains the same on this vehicle, FE will certainly drop by at least 1 mpg on the EPA, utility will drop, but I don't often carry people in the rear seat, if it didn't have a rear seat that would rule it out. Hatchback would increase utility.

Personally I feel if a replacement is in order it comes as an HCHIII, PriusIII, something from Ford, or a Volt. A supplement would be the Aptera EV 2.5 seater. But until at least one more of these vehicles in addition to the PIII hits the lots (or waiting lists more likely) I'll reserve my decision for replacing MH-02-IMA*