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~60mpg (10 more than Prius III) and 98 gm/km CO (6 gm/km better than Prius II) for ~ $15,000.

And, the 14 dwarves rule that you can't have it. (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm?chan=autos_autos+--+lifestyle+subindex+page_top+stories) (But, they do allow a 6.2L diesel dually).

We need more of that kind of thinking.

Hi Flatty:

___Actually the new 2010 Prius-III is CO2 emissions rated at ~ 90 g/km.

___Not quite as efficient as the Econetic but it is about 20-percent larger as well.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I believe the PIII number isn't official yet - "under 100 gm/km" and 90 from Honda. That's why I put the Prius II down. It's fussing over motes; the fact is it is not what you expect from a diesel viz the hype of hybrids.

It is a B-car, but most buy Prius for ultimate mileage in a practical form. I heard somewhere that more FE is ALWAYS better. ;)

Regardless, we can't have them and we're about to increase the power and control of the people who have banned them.

Hi Flatty:

___I don’t think anyone has banned them (diesels that is); it is the manufacturers do not want to bring them in. The 50-state compliant VW Jetta TDI is a prime example of one that is here. It is Ford, GM and Honda that are sitting on the fence, not CARB or the EPA holding them back.

___The Prius-III is expected to achieve 90g/km. The Honda Insight-II is well over 100 and possibly as high as 112 or thereabouts g/km.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wayne:

"Banned" is overstating it. However, CARB's diesel policy and actions have been a mess over the past 15 years and supressed auto diesel use in this country.

In their continuing mismanagement saga, check the retroactive emissions requirements for diesel trucks and school buses (http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onrdiesel/documents/truckruleoverview.pdf). Having no certified solutions available, no one knows the configuration nor the cost of complying, but the law will have them doing that (something) mod beginning 2011. They then estimate that it (something) will cost California $5.5 billion

If you were to build a clean diesel motorcycle, you cannot get it certified by CARB. There is no small diesel certification process. People are trying, but they aren't listening.

Doesn't that seem an incompetent form of management/governance? The rest of the US will follow their leadership? Who will represent citizens of other states (e.g. who do I write to modify a wacky California control imposed on NY? My Senator? What do they do, call CARB?)?

While their intent is fine, they don't have the knowledge, resources, management ability or oversight to manage emissions policy for the rest of the US.

Hi Flatty:

___As stated previously, Ford can bring in its co-developed diesels anytime it wants too as they have the tech to do a 50-State emissions variant. VW has but Ford simply decided against it as has Honda.

___When you look at the TDI monthly sales figures, they (Ford and Honda) may be doing the right thing although I know the 1.6L TDCi would walk all over a Prius on the highway. Around town, a Prius would walk all over the Fiesta Econetic.

___Lastly, the Prius is still a midsize vehicle while the Fiesta is still a sub-compact.

___If you would like to find out more about the Econetic, use the search function as we have reported on it a number of times in great detail. There may even be an article on it? I recently uploaded two more Fiesta Econetic pics in the Photo Gallery as well.

___WRT diesel bikes, there most certainly are both EPA and CARB emissions specs and they are as much as 20 times as lenient as automobile specs. Diesel bikes are not allowed because they cannot even meet the gimme specs unfortunately.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Today there are no diesels because of CARB policies of the past. NY in 2006, as a CAFE state, lost all diesel passenger vehicles (about the time legal Duramax 6.2s became really popular - a CARB or EPA problem there? One butt to kick, please).

We are a decade behind because of CARB's violent reaction to diesel rather than its emissions. Like any 'different' engine, diesel growth year over year is measured in single digits. It killed a nascent market, that is only now restarting. Now, we're caught in a economic downturn that stifles new edge products, so everyone is pulling back and planning for releases for the future.

Diesel bikes: didn't say that there aren't emissions specs - there is no certification process. It's Catch-22. You can't meet the CAFE specs if they don't certify you.

Hi Flatty:

___The TDI is a diesel and I can assure you it is available within CA and NY. The Honda managers in Phoenix told me Honda decided not to bring the Tier II/Bin 5 capable iDTEC over in the TSX just yet because the precious metals within the specialized DOC and NOx adsorber were simply too expensive.

___Ford has never bothered to try and bring a decent diesel over and the International in the Power Stroke's are anything but fuel efficient.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

While I lament the dearth of diesels in the US for the sake of their efficiency, the emissions of old-tech diesels really were unacceptable. Take the one that's in the family: a '99 E300 Turbodiesel. It's not that old in the grand scheme of things. But I don't need any fancy testing equipment to see the haze behind it if the driver really gets on the loud pedal. I also didn't need fancy testing equipment to tell that the air in Athens, when I lived there in '02, was absolutely toxic as a result of the countless visibly polluting diesel and gas (neither had sufficient emissions controls) vehicles running around that city. It was disgusting even on a good day with some wind blowing the pollution out to sea.

If one insists on treating it as a politicas matter, fine. For me, that's just a distraction from real issues that need to be addressed.

___The TDI is a diesel and I can assure you it is available within CA and NY.

Of course, but CAFE states went from having:

Pre-2006: "Some diesels." With the wavering CAFE requirements, automakers ruled out any diesel plans for the US as too uncertain (except nominally, VW, MB) .

2006-2008: 3 years - No diesels in market.

2009: What's the volume with a growth rate from zero in the market? It takes about a decade to get a significant (15%) market volume.

Hi Flatty:

___VW knew what the emissions specs were and were going to be. It was up to them to meet them.

___Now that they (VW) has commited the $'s to meet Teir II/Bin 5 (this was a copy of the CARB LEV-II standards for all intents and purposes) that they have, it is up to the consumer to purchase them, not CARB, VW or the Federal government.

___If VW is the only company (Audi is owned by VW) and a few Daimler/BMW turbo-diesels, 15% market share is a Global Insight's pipe dream. The Jetta TDI is not selling well due to lack of supply or lack of demand and it doesn't matter which, they are not selling well and that is the bottom line.

___The Big 6 are looking at CAFE with a number of tech and diesel with its price disparity at the pump seems to have been left out of the bargaining. Again, this is not a CARB or Federal Government problem, it is a problem for the manufacturers to bring them in with the $2K + emissions systems. Right now, there are a lot smarter people then you or I telling the Exec's it is not a good time to try apparently?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

___Now that they (VW) has commited the $'s to meet Teir II/Bin 5 (this was a copy of the CARB LEV-II standards for all intents and purposes) that they have, it is up to the consumer to purchase them, not CARB, VW or the Federal government.

@flatty: You feel strongly about diesels, so why not support VW's initiative and buy one? New or used. According to the mileage logs, you drive a Chrysler minivan @25mpg and a '37 Harley @50mpg (your logs haven't been updated for a while, so maybe you aren't driving at all, which would be even better??). A VW diesel would certainly net you >25 mpg and probably >50mpg. With far cleaner emissions than the Harley (emissions controls in 1937???) and better weather protection.

Or a used scooter or small motorcycle which would do better than the Harley in both mpg and emissions.

We can talk forever about "shoulda, woulda" and the evils of CARB and other government agencies but people need to act on their beliefs. Some of my friends who are interested in hybrids (I know you aren't) say they want to wait until the technology has been tested (10 years isn't enough??) or that they want to wait for the next even better model. But great diesels are here right now, even if the selection is limited so far. If people don't buy them, the selection will not grow. Other mfrs are certainly watching to see how VW's TDI's sell, and that will weigh in their decision to bring in their diesels.

Wayne, by what measure do you say the new TDI is not selling well? You probably have access to better numbers than me, but VW of Americas's original estimate was that 25% of Jettas would be TDI's, but it turned out to be closer to 40%. My conservative estimate assuming 25% Jettas are TDI's is that around 1500 TDI's were sold in the USA in January, similar to the Civic Hybrid. Considering that the plain gas Civic is a much more popular car than the gas Jetta, I would say that the TDI is selling well.

But do correct me if I'm mistaken. Those are back-of-the envelope numbers without access to the special media sites.

Flatty -- It's not CARB's fault that no diesels were sold between 2006-2008. The manufacturers knew what the regulations were going to be. In VW's case, they decided it would not be worth it to make the old 1.9 meet the standards, when they knew they would be working on a new engine and emissions system to be released only 3 years down the road. Other manufacturers probably have their own reasons.

Hi Sefton:

___VW is very secretive about TDI sales so I used the following...

Jetta Sales

Month|Total units sold (Sedan and Wagon)|Increase/Decline in %|VW Commentary

Jan. 2009|6,238|- 3.9% vs. Jan. 2008|NA
Dec. 2008|8,063|- 9.8% vs. Dec. 2007|NA
Nov. 2008|6,472|- 16.8% vs. Nov. 2007|“Nevertheless, our clean diesel TDI’s continued to sell very well even in this tough economy and represented 17 percent of our monthly sales.”
Oct. 2008|7,259|- 6.6% vs. Oct. 2007|NA
Sep. 2008|8,817|- 14.3% vs. Sep. 2007|“The all-new Jetta TDI and Jetta SportWagen TDI continue to sell as fast as dealers get them in.”

___It was the press release pronouncement that 17% of sales were TDI’s last Dec. that keyed me in to the poor TDI sales numbers. You only spin good numbers in press releases, not bad ones so I suspect between 15% and 18% of Jetta sales are TDI’s which would look similar to the following.

Estimated Jetta TDI sales

Month|Total units sold (Sedan and Wagon)
Jan. 2009|935 to 1,122
Dec. 2008|1,209 to 1,451
Nov. 2008|970 to 1,165
Oct. 2008|1,089 to 1,307
Sep. 2008|1,322 to 1,587

___The average would be ~ 1,200 TDI’s per month. These are not good sales numbers given the Jetta is ~ 50% of VW sales in the US.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I think they mean the TDI represents 17% of all VW sales. They did not mention Jetta in the November 2008 release. VW Canada have said similar things about the TDI being 30% of overall sales and 80% of Jetta sales. 17% of overall sales would put the TDI at about 37% of November Jetta sales, close to that 40% figure that I heard.

VW's original plans were to sell around 15000 TDI's in 2008. Reports I have seen indicated that the TDI was selling better than expected, so only ~9000 using assuming the TDI was 18% of Jetta sales (about 2400 were sold in August) sounds off to me. I would be extremely surprised if they sold less than 10k in 2008.

Hi Mike:

___I wish I could tell you but VW just does not respond to my questions via E-Mail or by phone :(

___I doubt the 17% of all sales figure because there are not that many Jetta TDI's hitting the VW dealership down the street from me?

___If you see something at the Club, by all means let us know as there are VW dealership members over there that should know.

___As for less than 10K, I doubt it is that low. Maybe 15K which is what the previous 5-months sales figures are showing with 17% of Jetta sales being TDI’s. 15K is a failing launch unless it is done on purpose for some reason???

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Unfortunately, I don't see much from dealers over there Wayne. There is one guy who says he has TDI #12700 so it sounds like at least that many were made. I don't see many TDI's at my local dealers either, certainly nowhere near the 30% of all VW's or 80% of Jettas sold in Canada. They probably don't sit on lots very long before they are sold.

15k TDI sales August-December would be my estimate as well. Total Jetta sales over that period were 41,828 so the TDI share of Jettas would be 36%, not 17%. 15k was probably chosen by VW of America as their allotment. There were also rumors of an engine plant fire limiting the engine supply, but I believe most of that 15k figure is VWoA's doing.

...But great diesels are here right now, even if the selection is limited so far. If people don't buy them, the selection will not grow. Other mfrs are certainly watching to see how VW's TDI's sell, and that will weigh in their decision to bring in their diesels.

Not enough diesel (or hybrid) choices are available - we have 3 kids, with a 4th on the way. Stretching the Chrysler is our best option right now. We're getting 21/26 wife-22/28 me (winter) and 22/28 wife - 24/30 me (summer) with it. Send me a Ford TDCi S-MAX or Galaxy

I'm not against hybrids - clever technology - but the need for parallel propulsion systems disturbs my notion of good engineering.

I've got a diesel bike in the works that should give ~150 mpg and allow very few stops at a gas station for imported oil. MPG is actually irrelevant as it'll run on B100, which becomes practical at this low volume - about 41 gallons over a 9 month riding season.

- Charlie

I'm not against hybrids - clever technology - but the need for parallel propulsion systems disturbs my notion of good engineering.


I guess I have a different way of looking at it. To me, the internal combustion engine is the part of the car that doesn't make any sense. They all typically run constantly whether power is needed or not. Gasoline engines run less efficiently at low loads, whereas diesels do OK there but produce high levels of NOx since the mixture becomes lean. And in either case a step-gear transmission won't make the most of an ICE.

PHEVs excluded, I think of the "hybrid" part of the car as little more than a transmission that makes up for the considerable defficiencies of the ICE. And at least in my experience, that is how it behaves. It spins up the engine on an as-needed basis, keeps it running in an efficient mode when in use, and allows the engine to be sized for the 99.9% of the time that a driver is cruising sanely rather than the 0.1% of the time that a driver wants to mash the accelerator. And yes, a good diesel can just about get you there. But doing it cleanly costs just about as much as the hybrid with a comparable level of complexity (albeit in different systems). So at the end of the day I really don't think it can be said objectively that one makes more engineering sense than the other. They both work at a similar cost and with comparable risks involved.

I think that a truly sensible solution is a long way off. EVs offer the simplest, most efficient, and in my mind most elegant drivetrain. Energy storage is the real problem. The first guy to figure out how to make a $1000 battery that lasts 100,000mi and takes you 350mi on a 5-minute charge will be very rich, indeed. If we are going to solve our transportation problem we may as well go all the way.

Hi Mike:

___I finally got a hold of someone at VW that may be interested in helping out in a number of ways...

___Instead of calling the contacts in Herendon, VA, I called the Press Vehicle Manager in Detroit. I requested he place us on the list for a Jetta TDI SportWagen w/ a stick (if one is available ;)) if our credentials are up to his standards. This was by E-Mail after our phone conversation. I do not know how they would disallow us given the daily coverage, reviews and consumer reach over the past 6 to 9-months but stranger things have happened?

___Secondly, when I asked for someone that could provide the TDI breakout in the Monthly Sales Reports, he said he would talk with the responsible parties to make it happen in those same future Monthly Sales Reports :) :) :)

___What a pleasure to speak with Sean vs. the many managers Voice Mail in Herendon.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

___What a pleasure to speak with Sean vs. the many managers Voice Mail in Herendon.


Huh? :confused:


;)

Hi Sean:

___You are not the only Sean in the world ;)

___It was Sean Maynard of VW Detroit.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Missed my smilie, did you? ;)

That's great news, Wayne! It's good to hear that at least one person working for VWoA knows what he's doing.

I requested he place us on the list for a Jetta TDI SportWagen w/ a stick (if one is available ;))

Yay!!! I'll reconsider how to get 4 kids into it.

Hi Mike:

___I meant to get back to your earlier. A VW manager in Chicago told me the TDI’s are taking 30% of the sedan sales and 80% of the wagons. He also said there is no limitations on allotments so as many as a given dealership wants, they can have :)

___About the Fiesta... The European reviews are coming in and it looks so darn good other then the rear seat room and rear view.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Thanks for the update Wayne :). The Fiesta looks like a very good car indeed and I would certainly be happy to have one.