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I know this wont go over well. But I still have to say it.

Im a huge supporter of hybrid tech and alt. fuels.

Im not a supporter of tax breakes and credits.

I do not support corprate welfare, nor human welfare to the extent that it helps to get somebody in a car.

Lets face it. If your struggling to keep gas in your 94 Impala, You dont have the funds to buy a HCHII to start with. If you are in the position to buy a hybrid in todays market and pricing structure. Your basicly giving money to the dealer. Because they have jacked the price up on the car. :mad:

I think the tech. should seek its own level and place in the market.

The wife and I have thought on this long and hard. We have looked into purchasing hybrids. We just havent done it yet. Im very intrested in what Honda will do with the next gen Accord. And hope a well thought out hybrid will be in the line up. If there are any credits or such we WONT TAKE THEM or IT! if we purchase a Accord Hybrid.

I for one dont like working my rump off. Paying my tax in good faith and then know it or part of it goes to a special intrest group that over all makes what I make or even more! Be it a dealer, consumer, or corpration.

psy

psyshack,

We might find some common ground - the tax break Hummers and the like get should go. NO WAY is it a farm vehicle.

There was not a tax credit when I bought my Insight on Sept 9, 2000 (I'd been happy to have used it... ;) )

Hi Psy:

___I understand where you are coming from but when people have a choice between taking on a Prius II w/ an EPA combined of 55 mpg at a touch of $18K and a Corolla LE w/ Auto w/ an EPA combined at a touch over 34 for $16.5K, I would much rather see that new car purchaser in the Prius II for the $1.5K more. The only reason that Prius II was sold to Dennis G. last month was because of that handout we call Government Tax Credit … You want to bitch, look at a Realtors sucking in 50K + tax exemptions on an H2 and such. Another … The town I work in received a > $400,000 7-story capable ladder - pumper paid by Homeland security with a 90% HS - 10% City outlay. The tallest building in the town is 2 stories except for the power plant and the last time I saw 20 stories of concrete on fire was … hmmm, concrete doesn’t start on fire the last time I looked! It took 4 months before they had someone that was even qualified to drive the ****ed thing let alone work it properly … So yes, Tax credits for hybrid vehicle suck given we have an out of control budget problem (see the other stories in this post for a few more of the real problems) but we have an even larger oil/energy addiction problem that is killing us at the rate of over $3 Billion a day! So to everyone driving 14 mpg P/U trucks back and forth to work like they were 15 minutes late spewing god knows what into our air and keeping that addiction going from our friends who did in fact take 2,700 + American souls away from us not 5 years ago next month, thank you for the tax credit. Every one of those that can take advantage of the credit is doing you, I , and everybody else in our country one hell of a favor in the long run …

___If we paid what gasoline really costs including the $’s spent to protect that addiction - congo line leading from here to the friendly nations where most of the worlds supply comes from (Canada not included), it would be ~ $10.00 per gallon. At that point, a TAX credit would not be needed but today, I think it is a very smart thing. Because you decided to purchase the Civic EX vs. the HCH-II was a choice you made all the while you knew the tax credit on the HCH-II would have made the purchase price close to a wash after January 1. Let alone the minimal depreciation on the HCH-II vs. the non-hybrid. I know your reasons for not purchasing the HCH-II but I applaud those that do as the $2,100 tax credit for that particular hybrid was just a bonus vs. the EX as just one example. I did the same with the Accord and in many ways, I even regret that knowing what I could have been receiving in an HCH-II for even less $ outlay although less luxury ... A car that receives an average of 50 vs. one that receives an average of 34 in the Civic’s case or 29 in the case of the Accord is the right thing to do for so many reasons it isn’t even worth bringing up in this day and age …

___Good Luck

___Wayne

A fairer (but politically riskier) tactic would be to beef up the gas guzzler tax - maybe include vehicles that can't get 15mpg. Detroit would scream, no doubt....

well psy too bad you dont go towards the used car scene because there are some great deals on used hybrids... and in theory they tend to run better than their used gas counterparts ;) since hybrids are pretty hard to kick the living crap out of...(unless an agressive driver decides to buy a hybrid?)

in honest opinion though i'd get a hybrid for reducing my stress levels on the road that's it. That a premium totally worth paying for, always smiling when you get in your car... i want that feeling!

Wayne

The problem of oil/gas and pertro use and open market was offical in 1950 when most agree that useage was firmly higher than domestic production. Its been a dog fight in the making ever since.

I feel in my life. I have done my part to some extent to save gas. Ive owned alot of motorcycles. Ive always had a small FE type car in the stable. Be it a Festiva or Escort type car. Sure Ive owned a Hemi car with syurp bucket sized pistons in it and carbs that would flow gas like a garden hose. << It wasnt a daily driver. Ive made my living in pick ups. My answer to that was a Ranger. I purchased a Olds Delta 88 when my kids where younger and growing insted of a SUV thats been the rage for such duty.

My mistake when I purchased my Civic was >>>> I didnt buy a Insight!!! And I darn well knew it was there! Tax credit or not. :)

In a past life I was a general contractor, contractor, ie 1099. I could have written off the toilet paper I used in the oil field. Heck everything was a write off like Relators do now. Truck, tools, food, everything but S.S. Just make my quartlerly payments then get it back in spades! I was the one that made the choice to go renigade to make my living. Not the American tax base.

When I owned my last big house of 5.5K sq. ft. I paided to have 3 phase power ran to it. Paided to install my distro center and sub. panels and transformer. I did my own wireing, changed motors out in my A/C units, washers and dryers, pool pump and such to save abit on power. I built my own solar panels for heating water for domestic use and my swiming pool. I didnt take the pats on the back from the tax base because I was in a position to do the right thing. Nor did I fly a big greenie flag. I just used my skills and the funds i had to do the right thing. At the time.

I mean come on.... We pay huge farmers to not plant. Feed the world and kill small farms.

Is it my fault Honda see's fit to outfit a HCHII at levels that aproach a EXL Accord with out the leather to entice a buyer. That cust. dosent need a tax break. If the hybrid was that important to Honda and the mass's. Why isnt it trimed out like a LX? You dont need auto climate control to have auto stop. why isnt my R-18 a lean burn engine? Is it because it would feather the coat tales of a hybrid?

The tech. needs to be developed and it has to be paid for. I understand that. God knows I do. But why does the ave. tax payer have to foot the bill? Folks that cant afford the the tech or dont want it are paying for it. And those that can afford it are skating. Is this some sort of phyiscal social engineering?

A fairer (but politically riskier) tactic would be to beef up the gas guzzler tax - maybe include vehicles that can't get 15mpg. Detroit would scream, no doubt....

I wrote a pretty good rant to this effect. You can read it at my website (www.gaianar.com).

http://www.gaianar.com/Commentary/An%20Argument%20for%20Specific%20Taxation%20of%20Sport.doc

I'm fairly new around here to make such Political statements, but may as well...:p

IMHO, the solution to our short-term fuel problem is Clean and/or Bio-Diesel - and to place a heavy discount on that fuel to attract North Americans back to it (instead of helping people out at the dealer, help out at the pump). Ethanol is a band-aid, and a poor one at that.
Diesel:
* Is cleaner in '07 due to new EPA requirements (virtually no sulfur)
* Emissions are more strict under the same EPA regulation (no soot)
* It's possible to transport it in our current pipeline infrastructure without picking up water, and be transported to the pump traditionally
* It would take a huge burden off of tractor-trailer owner/operators (the guy/gal who owns their own truck), and reduce the cost of goods sold as a result of lower shipping costs overall could boost the economy.
* Diesel has more power per combustion and can go longer on a tank
* We can wean ourselves off of Dino-D and go to Bio-D over time
---Bottom Line--- We need a Diesel-Electric Hybrid available, and that's where R&D/Marketing funding should be going right now.

In the meantime, Ethanol is fine instead of MTBE for the different fuel mixes, but is very inefficient. The reason hybrids are incentivized, is people are afraid of the technology and its longevity.

Remember, this is a tax credit, not a big check for $2000 written out to "Joe Hybrid-Buyer". It has to be worked into their income tax return -- so if they have a '94 Impala, probably not a large income. In other words, it won't be worth $2000, in total.

There will always be those H2-type people working the system, but there are more of US out there, and WE can change things. (Not that it does any good) I write my Congress-People regularly. Maybe over time, they'll get the idea. Hybrid ownership is a grassroots movement funded by the Government, it couldn't be better. That $$$ goes back into a system that hopefully increases FE and lowers emissions the next time around. Lastly, keep FE a "cool" thing to do and more people will sign-on.

RH77
http://GasSavers.org

I think it is a great idea. A bio civic hybrid would be great :) It would probably be a 65 o r70mpg vehicle.

BTW, not being into desiel person can someone tell me if they take a lot to get them started and what the longterm effects of shutting off the engine and starting it would be? I hear they are a more durable engine, but don't know if they whould have to be built more sturdily. Also, winters seem to have a negative on hybrd batteries and on desiels so they might be poor for northern states.

Any ideas?

I think it is a great idea. A bio civic hybrid would be great :) It would probably be a 65 o r70mpg vehicle.

BTW, not being into desiel person can someone tell me if they take a lot to get them started and what the longterm effects of shutting off the engine and starting it would be? I hear they are a more durable engine, but don't know if they whould have to be built more sturdily. Also, winters seem to have a negative on hybrd batteries and on desiels so they might be poor for northern states.

Any ideas?

Excellent questions. From my research, Diesel has poor cold operating properties. To compensate for this, anti-gel additives are added in the Winter to help the fuel flow freely. Cold starts are aided by glow-plugs that raise the temperature of the cylinder to allow the diesel to combust more readily (Diesels don't have spark plugs or a throttle - pressure combusts the mix in the cylinder and the "gas pedal" actually is a fuel pump regulator).

As far as cold hybrid battery operation, that may be an obstacle. A gas engine produces more heat, while the Diesel loses the heat of its combustion very readily. Perhaps the extra torque could assist with an electric warmer in an insulated compartment for the hybrid batts. Only experimentation could yield an answer (of which, I'm not sure how far they've come along with it thus far).

RH77

Tom

A desiel is a much more robust engine than a gasser. They ignite fuel solely on compression and retained temp. Audi is working to slim the mills down in weight with there endurance racing efforts and over all research. The Germans as a whole are the world leaders in this tech. Cummin's is a good act also. Internatinal, GM, Ford and other USA suppliers are way behind the 8 ball when it comes too the four stroke / two stroke engine design called desiel. :) Yes a desiel can be 2 or 4 stroke. Its all about intake and exhaust control and other lubercation properties that decied that... Well that and the amount of oil base stock you choose to burn. :)

Over all a desiel can make much more touque than a gasser. But to handle this requires a better more robust drive line. Then to deal with the emissons is a balanceing act. That control alone is very advanced. To me its more advanced than a hybrid gasser.

Surely we most give Jetta TDI owners a tax credit. seeing desiel fuel is taxed higher than gas.

Aww socialism at its best.

well psy too bad you dont go towards the used car scene because there are some great deals on used hybrids... and in theory they tend to run better than their used gas counterparts ;) since hybrids are pretty hard to kick the living crap out of...(unless an agressive driver decides to buy a hybrid?)

in honest opinion though i'd get a hybrid for reducing my stress levels on the road that's it. That a premium totally worth paying for, always smiling when you get in your car... i want that feeling!

Phil

Over all I dont do the used car thing. That dosent mean I dont look. My Honda dealer hasnt got one used HCHI or Insight back in 5MT. Not one. There all CVT cars. I could pick up a used Insight or HCHI CVT at a very good price and low miles if inclinded to do so. Or get a beat to snot 5MT at way more than its worth out of the paper or ebay.

So I do keep a eye open.

Im in the market for a new Harley or two. Maybe I should get a tax credit for hypermiling a Wide Glide down Interstate 40 at 100 mpg with the wife on the back. Sorry its not a car that weights in the tons, so that dosent count. :)

I have a infinity to enjoy some rpm's from time to time. I Enjoy digging a car into a curve here and there. Heck,,, Ive been known to just boil the tires. Its amazeing how the civic leaves two equal black marks without a LSD. LOL

But as of yet as I see it. Nobody in a R-18 Civic is close to me in FE. Be it Goverment board or popular public boards / logs. So Im not doing a lot wrong. Yes I get my digs.

I hope to take my Civic in next sat, morning for a ECU reflash. My car has a problem with RPM hang when shifting and such. As a driver this dosent bother me over all. Other than the fact it waste gas. When driving fast and digging its really a blessing. Keeps heal and toe to a min. But for FE driving I dont see it as a plus. So Im going to have the flash done. I hope to see a .5 mpg increase in my mpg as a result of the flash. I can more than make up for the digging aspect with foot work. :)

yeah i agree about the rpms hanging part it really delays my shifting that's for sure. I wish it can just drop as a fly as I push the clutch in.

well psy i'm glad you have fun with your 5spd but i feel its hard to have fun when I live in a congested area with cops around all the time ;( so an autobox will relief the stress but i find regular cars autoboxes too inefficent for my taste for city mpg. So hybrid autoboxes are the only choices on my list.

Why was this thread moved?

Hi Psy:

___Sorry about that. I was having intermittent connections so I moved it after about 15 tries, went out and just got back.

___I moved it because there will be high level manufacturing types, politicians, and hopefully high level press types visiting the legislative forum and I will keep it as clean as possible for those serious about moving AFV/hybrid whatever legislation. It is not going to turn into a sounding board for us to banter back and forth about what we believe to be the right or wrong way to maneuver government spending.

___I am all for offering incentives for the high FE based TDI’s but really, the Insight 5-speed as that is the best fuel saver on the planet without question and there is no tax credit available on the Insight 5-speed either :(

___About the available TDI’s …

2006 Golf w/ Auto - EPA rated for 33/44
2006 Golfw/ a stick - EPA rated for 37/44

2006 Jetta w/ Auto - EPA rated for 35/42
2006 Jetta w/ a stick - EPA rated for 36/41

2006 Jetta w/ Auto - EPA rated for 35/42
2006 Jetta w/ a stick - EPA rated for 37/44

___SMOG related emissions are so poor on the TDI’s even on LS fuels they cannot be purchased for the 07 model year vs. the Insight 5-speed which is a ULEV on today’s fuel. The FE just does not come close enough to a Hybrid for inclusion into the incentive program as well as the emissions are really terrible. I am speaking of running even on B100! I do however encourage TDI owners because they can run B20 – B100 and when they do, their GHG emissions begin falling to such a low level that a SI-ICE will never catch them!

___As an alternative … The Toyota Corolla CE/LE w/ a Stick is a 32/41 rated vehicle that is far less expensive, has far lower SMOG related emissions, and is available in whatever quantities you want today, tomorrow, and the next day … Up to a point that is :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne

A fairer (but politically riskier) tactic would be to beef up the gas guzzler tax - maybe include vehicles that can't get 15mpg. Detroit would scream, no doubt....

The guzzlers are paying. And paying big time tax at the pump. I dont honestly know where the tax money is suppose to go. Rumor has it roads and bridges with some to law enforcement. We have some of the worst roads in the nation. So wheres the money going. Best I can figure to build turnpikes so I can pay again. Or some sort of social, political or corprate welfare. This weekend I saw a hwy reconstruction project being done with funds from a Indian Tribe. Thats pretty bad when a local Tribe has to fund the reconstruction of a State HWY because the state cant do its job with record tax collection.

Yup. All those "funds" the taxes go into get raided for all sorts of special interest "projects".

In every state I have been in I hear the same thing "the tolls were supposed to go away after <some condition> is met" Can anyone name a toll road that became free? There has to be some, but I don't know of any in any of the states I've been in.

Psy is right. Guzzlers are paying. And the higher the price of gas goes the more they pay. Its kind of a progressive tax. Market conditions alone will do as much for change as any law being passed in my opinion.

But if the government wants to give me money I'm going to take it in spite of knowing it's basicly going through me to big buisness.

It's amazed me that the sales of gas guzzlers has not dropped much until this year. The price is starting to get high enough that more people are starting to think "what do I really need?" Still annoyed that companies such as McDonald's and Dr. Pepper have Hummer promotionals, and that the toy stores are filled with them.

I can partially explain the condition of the roads. For the past fifteen years or so, not that many new roads have been built, but the usage has risen dramatically, leading to an increase in agressive driving and road rage. Adding to the stress on the roads and bridges is the average weight of passenger vehicles going up by 1,000 pounds.

I don't have it handy, but if you compared what Americans pay compared with Europe, Japan, etc., it's still one of the lowest. Consider the price will spike if supply exceeds the demand, which can easily happen now. Why should we let on like driving 15-20mpg vehicles is going to be OK, only to find recession-inducing gas spikes from another Katrina, attack on Iran, etc? The sooner the public starts to buy more fuel-efficient vehicles, the less vunerable our economy. I wish this had happened ten years ago, so Ford and the rest of Detroit would have gotten serious about building sedans and compacts. Instead, they have put all their eggs in trucks and SUVs and sales are plummeting. :(

I did consider purchasing a Golf TDI a couple of years ago, but found the maintenance schedule to be much too rigorous. Synthetic oil is required and the timing belt needs to be changed every 60K miles. It didn't fit into the schema of fuel and cost savings, so I decided to stick with the Integra.

It will probably be until 2009 before we see more mainstream Diesels available. Right now for '07, Ford, Dodge/Cummins, and GM/Isuzu have the light-duty truck scene covered, but for the passenger vehicle, the Mercedes E320D and Jeep Liberty are the only offerings until the emission gadgets work their way into the mass-market. I've researched the EPA's Clean Diesel Initiative, and it seems to be a huge step in the right direction, as small particulates (soot) and Oxides of Nitrogen and Sulfur are huge respiratory irritants. Over the past 5+ years, retrofits and new/OEM emissions systems have been tested and approved. The drawback: cost and complexity.

I'm at a crossroads right now because I may be moving from home-based with lots of travel to an office-based position, which will be 45-minutes each way in a combined cycle of open road and urban congestion. I can get 34 mpg over time in the 'Teg, but I may look into something that breaks the 40-mark and is low in the emissions category (as usual, it has to be used and cheap, so :confused: ). I'm not big on luxury, just reliability. This really is another topic, though...

RH77

Psyshack I'll have to agree with you on many points, especially this:
Im not a supporter of tax breakes and credits.

Please let me put a shameless plug on the tax link in my signiture.
It would end all of this and send the lobbyists home packing.

It's not the a value-added tax.
It's not a flat tax.

It's the fair tax.
So long to April 15 and the IRS.

http://www.fairtax.org
-Steve

I might be able to go along with eliminiating all tax credits and putting all the roadwork costs at the gas pump. It's very likely the cost of gasoline would be higher...recently it seemed that Congress pass a highway bill of $386 billion.

At the end of the day, this approach would still create more cost incentive to drive fuel-efficient vehicles. The tollroad charges by the size of vehicle (number of axels). This seems fairly market-driven - the more you wear it out - the more you pay.