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Honda's new fuel miser gets taken for a spin (http://wardsauto.com/testdrive/insight_runs_race_090112)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/2010_Honda_Insight-II.jpgTom Murphy - Wards Auto (http://www.wardsauto.com/) – Jan 12, 2009

A thorough review, but why the hypermiling BS half way down the page? -- Ed.

My Honda Insight is going too slowly for the blue-haired woman closing in fast from behind in a 1990s Mercedes E190.

Her impatience is obvious as she whizzes past and shoots a glance my way that says, “Can’t you see I’m late for pinochle?”

Undeterred, I putter along, attempting to set a record for fuel efficiency in the all-new second-generation ’10 Insight hybrid-electric vehicle. As part of the media launch, American Honda Motor Co. Inc. invited journalists to drive a 16-mile (26-km) loop along undulating roads here in suburban Phoenix to see which light-foot could achieve the best mileage....http://wardsauto.com/testdrive/insight_runs_race_090112/

Thanks, 97Protege!

So another sheep writes a journal...What did we expect?

what's that old saying ...fas driver in the slo lane.

Brags about getting 65 mpg and then rags on hypermilers?? WTF?

There certainly was a lot of hypermiling BS in there. Someone needs to send the author a stern email. Although my guess is the damage is done.

ollie

He needs to realize that it's not a hyphenated word at least.

When he vents about hypermilers being left lane hogs, he shows himself to be completely clueless.

The real problem is idiots trying to drive fast in the slow lane.

The real problem is idiots trying to drive fast in the slow lane.I encounter them daily. {sigh}


Well, there they go again :rolleyes: Just compile the evidence that this is a significant hazard to compare with distracted or reckless driving, or DUI...the reporters need to be saying this in a court room so they have to put up or shut up!
Extremist hyper-milers take the practice to levels that are unsafe and annoying: They roll through stop signs; over-inflate tires to decrease rolling resistance; drive well under the limit; hog the left passing lane; tailgate 18-wheelers to gain the drafting effect; and shut off the engine to coast down hills. This last maneuver is particularly dangerous because braking and steering are extremely difficult with the engine off.

There certainly was a lot of hypermiling BS in there. Someone needs to send the author a stern email. Although my guess is the damage is done.

ollieWhen Wayne gets home from Detroit, he might...I'm considering it too.

Just imagine substituting another group of people in that article....say "extremist Muslims" - there would be justifiable outrage - actually the outrage is justifible. All the documentation this writer has is past articles with hearsay - no solid evidence.

This last maneuver is particularly dangerous because braking and steering are extremely difficult with the engine off.

The irony is that the writer is apparently unaware that the Insight II has electric power steering assist ("EPS" in Honda-speak), which is not affected by turning the engine off. And may have an engine-restart feature if the brake vac drops too low. Anybody know about the latter??

John, I'm pretty sure it is just like Honda's previous hybrids -- ie, it will restart if in AS to replenish vacuum. If you FAS, no such luck.

Road rage? i would love to get my hands on this guy.

He did use the word "Extremist" prefacing hypermilers. I sent him a polite email this morning clarifying the differences.

...and shut off the engine to coast down hills. This last maneuver is particularly dangerous because braking and steering are extremely difficult with the engine off.

Hmmm, doesn't seem particularly dangerous in my Prius. What was that start-up procedure to ensure the engine in a Prius never shuts off?

Harry

The irony is that the writer is apparently unaware that the Insight II has electric power steering assist ("EPS" in Honda-speak), which is not affected by turning the engine off.

I have a Honda with EPS, and it is absolutely affecting by turning the key from On (II) to Accessory (I).

The EPS will shut off when the key is toggled to Accessory (I).

Returning the key to On (II) causes the EPS controller to go through a POST for a few seconds.

When the POST finishes, there is about a half second of system instability while the EPS motor comes on line.

You may think a brief wrist wrestling match with your steering wheel is a non-issue. I personally don't. Good luck convincing the author of the article that his concern is a non-issue.

(Of course, there are also hypermilers who remove their EPS fuse, along with the DRL fuse, since both consume energy. This solves the wrist wrestling issue. But again, good luck convincing the author of the article that it's a good idea to disable what he would consider safety features of an automobile.)

-mr. bill

Hi Mr. Bill:

___The item that fumes me is this author is one I met at the Insight-II launch event and Hypermiling in his eyes is what he may have done but the rest if us? The Insight-II gives you 65 + without doing anything but the speed limits and obviously this individual had a problem with that???

___I have a little note ready for him in few as well :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi All:

___My reply...



Hi Tom:

Since I was there with you at the Insight-II launch, did you see me diss those that tend to drive beyond the posted speed limits let alone most journalists aggressive driving behavior? NO you did not.

“They roll through stop signs” – Totally non-sense.

“Drive well under the limit.” – You mean between the speed limits and in most cases, the only legal drivers on the road.

“Hog the left passing lane” – Why are you making this up this up as Hypermilers are always in the right lane, not the left???

“Tailgate 18-wheelers to gain the drafting effect” – Is that how you received 65.8 mpg on the FE challenge? First there were no semi’s to draft and two, my run was 78.9 mpg and did so in 31 minutes and well before taking the challenge to the competitive level.

“Shut off the engine to coast down hills. This last maneuver is particularly dangerous because braking and steering are extremely difficult with the engine off.” – Please read what EPS is about and braking is not effected at all unless you are into the binders for three or four pumps. If so, you should have been using Regen with Fuel cut. Hypermilers know the difference but apparently you did not? The Insight-II has a glide mode (no current to or from the pack) without going into an advanced technique like FAS’ing. We do a lot of training and poor reporting such as yours unwinds much of what we teach to help us conserve fuel at every opportunity. Especially when you are completely unaware of the tactics and strategies used let alone made up while writing your own preview of the 2010 Honda Insight-II. Take a drive into Kawasaki, Japan sometime and maybe you will be shamed into shutting down your ICE at a light. If not, the commentary will sound like this: “There goes another one of those dumb American’s.”

To brag about receiving 65 mpg and than to diss the very tactics many use while being far safer, completely legal and in many cases far more relaxed drivers makes me shake my head given your write-up. Please feel free to reply at your earliest convenience and if you are ever in the Chicago area, give me a call and I will take you out on a clinic so you can learn the safe and proper way to drive and Hypermile vs. whatever you are doing currently.

In the mean time, here is our own preview of the Insight-II: CleanMPG Previews the 2010 Honda Insight-II

Good Luck to you and yours

Wayne Gerdes
Owner/Admin - CleanMPG

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Oh how I will enjoy reading what he has to say to that...Great way to get that ball rolling Wayne! He definitely needs to write an apology for slandering, but who am I kidding...

The irony is that the writer is apparently unaware that the Insight II has electric power steering assist ("EPS" in Honda-speak), which is not affected by turning the engine off. And may have an engine-restart feature if the brake vac drops too low. Anybody know about the latter??

The HCHII seems to have an electric brake vacuum booster, though I almost never hear it, except on test drives.

I'm so glad that someone emailed this "Tom" about the correct way to hypermile. When I first read his article, I couldn't believe the BS he was spilling. And who knows who will read that? He should think about writing a follow-up to fix his mistake!

Hi All:

___I received a response from Tom Murphy of Ward’s this morning regarding his interpretation of “Hypermiling” within his Insight-II review last month...


Wayne,

I promised you a response to your e-mail about my Honda Insight review, so here it is. While I’m at it, I’m responding to other letters from Chris Jones and Don Lemke, who also took issue with my review.

First, you all should know I am, compared with the vast majority of automotive journalists, intently focused on fuel economy. While many are more interested in horsepower and outrageous speed, I’ve advocated fuel conservation, well before high gas prices brought the issue to the fore. As a principal judge of our 10 Best Engines program during my 12 years at Ward’s, I have consistently focused many of our discussions on the importance of fuel economy.

So I respect the goal of hyper-miling and often practice it while driving. My intent was not to ridicule hyper-miling but to celebrate it, while calling attention to certain aspects of it that I find troublesome. All the negative types of hyper-miling I refer to in the article I have witnessed on the streets and highways of metro Detroit. Spend some time on the speedway that is I-696, and you’ll find people driving well below the limit in the fast lane, and not because they’re talking on the phone. My co-workers and I have seen them.

Go to YouTube and you can watch self-made videos all day long from people who do the things I referred to: rolling through stop signs, turning off the engine to coast down hills and tailgating for the drafting effect. I find all those practices dangerous. I’m sure responsible hyper-milers don’t do these things, but others do.

What I didn’t include in my story was an item on a national morning TV news show this past summer about a guy who takes left turns with his door open, hanging partially out of the car, to offset body roll and improve fuel economy. That’s beyond stupid, and it reflects poorly on the concept and practitioners of hyper-miling.

What seems to have gotten lost in this discussion is the Honda Insight, which I find to be a spectacular and affordable little package. Most of the other reviews I’ve seen have been less than favorable.

So please keep reading Ward’s, as we are constantly reporting on fuel economy from both a product and political standpoint.

And to responsible hyper-milers I say this: we have more in common than you think.

Tom Murphy
Executive Editor
Ward's AutoWorld

___My reply...


Hi Tom:

Let me offer who I am and a response.

I coined and defined the term “Hypermiling” back in 2004 and have been promoting high fuel economy driving since the day after 9/11. I have done so for the mass media by driving everything from Prius’ to P/U trucks at close to double or more of their respective EPA hundreds of times. Before that, I used to achieve above the EPA in most cases but nothing like today. If I would have only known how wasteful I was for the prior 20 years :(


“My intent was not to ridicule hypermiling but to celebrate it”
You certainly did not achieve that goal within your preview by any stretch of the imagination.


“All the negative types of hypermiling I refer to in the article I have witnessed on the streets and highways of metro Detroit. Spend some time on the speedway that is I-696, and you’ll find people driving well below the limit in the fast lane, and not because they’re talking on the phone. My co-workers and I have seen them.”
How are you equating anyone being a hypermiler at any speed in the far left lane? That would be a poor assumption. Hypermilers would be in the far right in a Ridge Ride as that is where the best fuel economy comes from.


“Go to YouTube and you can watch self-made videos all day long from people who do the things I referred to: rolling through stop signs, turning off the engine to coast down hills and tailgating for the drafting effect. I find all those practices dangerous. I’m sure responsible hyper-milers don’t do these things, but others do.”
I can see people driving above the speed limits every single day on every single road in America. Not only is that practice a hazard to everyone, it is illegal. I hope you do not practice that driving behavior but I do not know a single journalist that actually follows the speed limits as an unwritten rule.

Making a YouTube video? You can make a YouTube vid doing anything and call it anything. Unfortunately, Hypermiling is not a dangerous activity. Speeding however is given over a third of all traffic deaths are related to it.

Along a similar train of thought, have you ever written about speeding and its consequences with regards to traffic safety or our daily consumption of crude oil let alone practice it each time you turn the key?

With regards to Rolling through stop signs. This is a practice that has been performed since the first stop sign was put up and equating that activity to Hypermiling was a mistake. Unless you believe this action started in 2004 which would be silly to do so.

Turning off the engine to coast down hills... Let me hear why you believe this is so dangerous practice since you have brakes until the boost disappears (anyone that knows how to perform this very advanced practice knows how may applications they have) plus all your safety equipment is available in IG-II. If you needed your brakes for more than the three or four applications, you should have been in fuel cut (Glide/Regen in a hybrid) vs. a Forced Autostop (FAS) to begin with.

Power steering? Not if its electric and two, have you ever driven a full sized SUV or P/U truck at speed without power steering? Your father surely did? Since I can steer an Acura MDX with one finger without at any power steering above 25 mph, can you? FAS’ing is an advanced technique and until you know what you are doing with the basic, intermediate and advanced techniques at our disposal, I would advise you not to perform any until you have received the proper training or have a full understanding of both the desirable and undesirable consequences.

Regarding hybrids and a FAS. If you understand how the 2006 - 2009 HCH-II, 2004 - 2009 Prius-II, 2010 Prius-III and 2010 Insight-II, work, you may have discovered something we call “Glide”. This does not involve turning your motor off going down a hill but simply finding the zone when a minimal amount of current is flowing into or out of the pack, the injectors are shut down and the valves sealed up to reduce pumping losses on the Honda IMA systems or the engine is shut down in the case of the Prius. We use this mode to maintain momentum and it is built into the vehicles themselves. It is not the best solution in all cases with IMA equipped Hybrids but in over 75% of the driving scenarios I can think of, it works as designed and achieves its goals.

In the case of the Prius, if you have figured out a way to run a Prius in a Dead Stick Glide (DSG), by all means let us know as I have been searching for that solution for well over 3 years now.

And the drafting effect you so thoughtfully interjected into your preview. The main stream press has attempted to turn hypermiling into drafting which it is not. If you are driving on the I-696, you are doing the same as it is similar to my native Chicago (the race track would include I-94/294), let alone driving in Dallas, Miami, Minneapolis, Phoenix and everywhere else we have both driven. I have pictures of individuals in the Audi Mileage Marathon this summer pulling some absolutely stupid stunts while drafting big rigs and there was not a single hypermiler amongst them. This is the same group that I have educated for years while “they” (this also includes you) chastise “Hypermiling” in all its guises. Here are a few examples of the “Foolishness” and it was within professional auto writers ranks which saddens me to no end.

Audi’s A3 with the 2.0L TDI coming to America - Post #17 (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showpost.php?p=183137&postcount=17)

The following is the CleanMPG response with regards to the “Hypermiling” bias from any number of media and “supposedly” professional outlets: RESPONSE TO AAA'S 6/27/2008 "Hypermiling is Dangerous" press release (http://www.cleanmpg.com/cmps_index.php?page=AAA)

Can you see yourself in any of the vehicles ahead of the camera in the embedded picture?

If it is others that do these things, then they are “not” hypermilers but simply “drivers” that you see every time you are on the I-696. The 2-second rule is golden so I plead with you to use it on your way home tonight. You will probably discover how rarely you yourself follow the guidelines. I hear the excuse that “there is too much traffic”, “I did not realize”, “this is BS” or “whatever”... All the while I will be between the limits in the far right lane in a Ridge Ride and usually at close to double the EPA no matter what I am driving. On top of that, I may be the only legal driver on the road for miles! I have driven the I-696 at pre, post and during rush and find it no different then any of the other cities I have driven in.


“What I didn’t include in my story was an item on a national morning TV news show this past summer about a guy who takes left turns with his door open, hanging partially out of the car, to offset body roll and improve fuel economy. That’s beyond stupid, and it reflects poorly on the concept and practitioners of hypermiling.”
That stupid guy was “ME”! If you can push a car 3-feet to get it rolling from your own drive, and coast for over 3-blocks from the same driveway including a top terminal speed of 9 mph with the engine off, why aren’t you? Do you like consuming gas to get your car rolling and then to idle for over a minute to get to a stop sign over 3-blocks away for absolutely no good reason? This is the new paradigm shift and once you begin to drive HEVs, PHEVs and BEVs, hopefully you will recognize that the internal combustion engine running for absolutely no good reason is the “stupid” thing.

Did you also miss the CBS Early Show where that same “stupid” guy drove from Chicago to New York City on a single tank of fuel in a Prius? Super Highway Mode (SHM) is a Prius mode I discovered over two years ago and it works!

All said, I think back to a story I did recently regarding Kawasaki, Japan. If you are seen idling at a light, the local citizenry will shame you for not shutting your engine off. After all, it is there air you are polluting so consider that the next time you believe a FAS in a non-hybrid is “Stupid”!


“What seems to have gotten lost in this discussion is the Honda Insight, which I find to be a spectacular and affordable little package. Most of the other reviews I’ve seen have been less than favorable.”
Yes indeed. You interjected “Hypermiling” as either stupid or includes drafting which of course there was absolutely no chance to do on the drives we were allowed in Carefree, AZ and all within a well written preview? You achieved > 60 mpg in a vehicle rated at just 41 mpg on a course with a top speed of 55 mph at most? Hypermilers follow the speed limits as was the case on both the challenge course and the long course. In both, the Insight-II allowed me > 70 mpg within the allotted time limits. It was you who interjected your own interpretation of things you may not understand much to the chagrin of some of your peers and readers.

The next time you feel the need to write about Hypermiling, do so from an educated point of view and please leave the grand standing out of it. If you are ever in the Chicago area this coming summer, give me a ring and we will go on a clinic so you can see for yourself what many other journalists have discovered while behind the wheel with me right next to them as a guide.

Finally, my own preview: CleanMPG Previews the 2010 Honda Insight-II (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18649)

Good Luck

Wayne Gerdes...

I included the following as an attachment.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/615/72_6_mpg_over_53_8_miles.jpg

___Good Luck

___Wayne

http://wardsauto.com/testdrive/prius_tough_beat_090325/

It is possible that the staff at Wards Auto are listening!
I came across this article that actually reviewed the 2010 Prius, a different author and focusing on the cars specifications was refreshing.