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Plan is to buy the less then $20k Honda Insite when it rolls out here very soon, it shows up as advertised.

I'd like to understand the Pros and Cons between Honda's IMA and Toyota's HSD.

I can read how they each work, but can't find a decent read on a comparison that shows the pros and Cons of each that would help if buying one.

Can a user post a link to that information?

thanks

We will have to wait and see if the new IMA system has any significant improvements over that used in the current HCH. In the past it has been hampered by the fact that the engine must run at virtually all speeds to drive the car, with the electric motor providing only supplemental power. That works fine at highway speeds but not as well around town.

I am not sure you'll be able to find a good and unbiased comparison. There's much to be factored in the decision which often depends on how you are going to use each.

I agree with Tim that the HSD system is superior in its urban potential and consistently offers the best results for most folks.

By owning and living with both, I have learned to appreciate both as more complementing than they are competing so making an informed and unbiased choice may have to depend on much more than the on paper potential of each:

What regimen urban/city (HSD rules in urban use and warm temps)
Driving distances (long distances, IMA may have a slight edge in non-urban, HSD is superior in urban )
Climate (in cold climates the IMA may have an edge as it seems to guzzle less when ICE must run)
Packaging and form factor (HSD or IMA do not contribute much to this)
Vehicle driving dynamics (HSD or IMA do not contribute much to this)
Future Plug in? (HSD is the definite way to go)
etcCheers;

MSantos

Hi Paul:

___I cannot add much more other than make sure you hit a local Group Meet of some kind so that you can ride along on a clinic/drive the two to see the strengths that both Tim and Manuel have already pointed out.

___HSD has advantages over IMA in a variety of traffic conditions but the upfront cost is a hurdle. If you are a suburban/highway driver, IMA cannot be beat but any stop and crawl and you are in for a battle. Exactly where HSD/eCVT (Ford’s solution) ramps up and literally leaves everyone beyond.

___As it stands, a base 09 Prius-II with no option packages begin at $24K (MSRP) and that is extremely steep compared to the compact it is based off of. Honda on the other hand has not released its MSRP for the Insight-II and if they are pushing it into the $20K range for the EX, there are any other number of compacts a Hypermiler like yourself can do better with for a who lot less money. It is just that the Hybrids make it easy to achieve stupid numbers whereas the big engine compacts like your Fit take so much work to achieve maybe 85% of the same. It is all in the ICE size and the gearing as you already know :(

___With that, Ford is punching out some incredible numbers from their non-hybrid Fusion and if the same amount of technology/engineering skill is used in the upcoming Fiesta (plus the Focus the following year), the IMA equipped Insight-II may not be such a bargain after all?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Like everyone said, the type of driving will be a big factor in your decision.

My work commute is 25 miles mostly freeway, so the Insight I with it's IMA is the best for me.

Hi, Paul (welcome back, by the way!) -- these guys have covered it very well. I think my decision to buy the Insight-I was the correct one for my driving environment, but only because it is equipped with a manual transmission and I can flip a switch to disable the assist/regen portion of the system. That gives it enough flexibility that I can drive it as a very small engined, light bodied, and very tall geared gas engine with lean burn capability. I give up cargo capacity, seating capacity (for more passengers), and acceleration potential but no currently produced OEM vehicle can match what I'm able to squeeze out with it 98% of the time... even in stop and go (unless it is full on stops with moving speeds in the single digits). Except for those very few times I can't keep up (and I avoid those pretty easily), the Insight-I can't be beat over the entire range of speeds and terrain. (I should mention here that I drive almost exclusively city routes -- that's where I can hit 130+mpg)

I couldn't do this with an HCH because it is a heavier car and way more prone to assist (not to mention there is no way to turn it off). The newer ones don't have a manual transmission and that kills some of the flexibility as well. But... as the others already noted IMA is mated to a very efficient engine and as long as you avoid the situations that HSD excels in (low speed stop and go where the electric mode can be exploited) the Honda system will net slightly better numbers.

Start throwing plug-ins into the equation and things change. The IMA as it is currently configured doesn't lend itself to electric only propulsion and so doesn't offer the ability for massive improvements across the scale with extra battery capacity. Higher speed electric only modes coming in future HSD versions offer the possibility promised by the GM team with the Volt -- fully electric travel for some reasonable distance (dependent upon battery capacity).

I love the simplicity/elegance of the Honda system (when considered as a modification of a standard gas propulsion vehicle) and its use of highly efficient engines. The HSD system offers a way forward to fully electric travel with upgrades though, and I love that too. Both systems are quite good and offer a lot of advantages.

From what I have read, the new Insite is a CVT tranny so that will be like the new Fords and a step change for IMA. Also Honda has a new interface to help guide a drive into the best operation for FE if one wants.

So the IMA should be less to make because of the simpler design so initial cost is lower but what about reliability. How are the HCH's doing. My Honda Master mech friend has indicated some significant design issues.

Maybe more will be released in the Insite this week with the big car show in Motown. Anyone going?

Is Toyota working on a lower cost car like the Insite ie target cost <$20k and seats 5?

Wayne is spot on re/ the work to get FE in the 50's in a Fit. It's capable, but you have to give up alot relative to a hybrid to make it practical day in a day out. To me it's a initial cost thing and looks Insite looks decent, never cared for the Prius looks:o

Hi, Paul (welcome back, by the way!) -- thank you :)

Actually, no -- the CVT is still a mechanical unit like the older Honda versions but it does have significant improvements in programming. The new interface is indeed helpful.

This vehicle should be quite reliable. The old transmission issues with the HCH-I CVT are long gone. A mechanical CVT isn't as robust as either a manual or an eCVT transmission (as used by Toyota and Ford), though.

Yes, there are several of us here in Detroit as I type this. ;)

I don't know if Toyota is working on a lower cost variant for release in the near future but I've heard rumblings of an HSD Corolla due sometime in 2012 (IIRC)... (That's an old rumor, though...)

If you are looking for a capable hybrid for not much money, the Insight looks to be your answer. I've seen several reviews now claiming low 40's with stupid driving. The car should be able to return over 50mpg with moderate effort and over 60mpg with more dedicated work. Wayne already managed a good margin over 70mpg when he drove it so it is there if you want it!