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“What killed Detroit was Washington, the government of the United States, politicians, journalists and muckrakers who have long harbored a deep animus against the manufacturing class that ran the smokestack industries that won World War II," - Pat Buchannan. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28033730)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/thrown_under_the_bus.JPGEve Tahmincioglu -MSNBC - Dec 9, 2008

The answer may be the circus of labor, management, government, dealships -- Ed.

Ron Maccari, an assembly worker for General Motors for nearly 30 years, has been angry lately over the negative comments he’s heard on TV and read on the Internet about his chosen career.

For weeks, the Big Three U.S. automakers have been on a campaign for a federal bailout, leading the manufacturing industry as a target of public vitriol.

Lawmakers, economists and business executives have joined in the attack.

Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., called the U.S.-based auto industry a “dinosaur.” An analysis in The Wall Street Journal titled “Just Say No to Detroit” by economist David Yermack suggested: “We would do better to set this money on fire rather than using it to keep these dying firms on life support.” Media mogul Ted Turner, in an interview with NBC's Tom Brokaw (http://javascript<b></b>:vPlayer('27982836','28d9992d-6989-495f-a63f-2e0f35b38753')), questioned why the country was still trying to “keep alive a smokestack industry of the past.”… http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28033730

LOL :D :D


When read the title of the thread I knew you'd post the picture of yourself under that bus in Madison. Glad to see it again. Still too funny !!!! :D


MSantos

LOL :D :D


When read the title of the thread I knew you'd post the picture of yourself under that bus in Madison. Glad to see it again. Still too funny !!!! :D


MSantosWith all the gloomy news, had to attempt a comic moment.

Much blame rests with top management who still reject peak oil, global warming, etc. and who apparently are not troubled with our dependence on hostile states for oil. There is plenty of blame to go around, however.

Since the world is flat, labor cannot compete with people willing to work for less, whether those people are in China, Japan, or Alabama.

Big 3 tied their own hands when they agreed not to have plants in the US outside of the closed union shops. Having grown up in open shop states and studied economics, my take is that rust belt manufacturing cannot regain its former status without changing the labor rules to allow willing people to work.

I am pro-union, but also free-market. Closed shops are anti-free market and ultimately fail.

I know these issues are open for debate; just my 2 cents for thought.

Since the world is flat, labor cannot compete with people willing to work for less, whether those people are in China, Japan, or Alabama.

Big 3 tied their own hands when they agreed not to have plants in the US outside of the closed union shops. Having grown up in open shop states and studied economics, my take is that rust belt manufacturing cannot regain its former status without changing the labor rules to allow willing people to work.

I am pro-union, but also free-market. Closed shops are anti-free market and ultimately fail.


I remember when President Reagan put a tariff on imported motorcycles over 500CCs. This was done to protect Harley Davidson. HD was the laughing stock of motor cycles then. We joked at how they should come with the required HD accessory, the trailer to get it home. HD turned things around pretty well, and I think GM could also, given some breathing room. Free markets can be a good thing, but they can also be a suicide pact if taken too far.

Whether the car companies fail is one question. But to have them fail now, at this moment in time when we are in severe recession, is not good. It would turn a nasty recession into a brutal one. A recession that might have lasted 2 years might instead last 5 or 6.

The government's costs in giving them another chance has to be balanced against the certain costs of having them fail, which include loss of tax revenue, unemployment costs, health care costs, social welfare costs, and all of those as required by all the other people who will lose their jobs in addition to the auto workers.

The best scenario is to have these car companies and unions work together to come up with new business rules and new products that will allow them to survive. Lower wages is necessary, as is an enlightened management that will lead in the right direction, for the good of the companies, our country, the autoworkers, and their customers.

Harry

LOL, that picture cracks me up. :biglol:

I place blame squarely at the feet of the UAW for this mess. They're the ones that demanded - and got - higher wages and benefits. This ruined GM's profit margin on small cars, forcing them into bigger trucks and SUV's. Now that the market for them has gone under, everyone's up a creek without a paddle. And it's all the union's doing.

I want to see the bailout fail, have the Big 3 go into Chapter 11, and allow them to cancel their contracts with the UAW, and renegotiate at something more reasonable. That and it would greatly reduce the union's power.

I don't blame the unions-they did what unions do-get their members as much compensation as possible.
However,I do want the pensioners to be tossed under the bus if there is a bailout. I sure as heck don't want to pay some retired autoworker $5000/mo when my wife gets just $740 from SS. Yes, they will whine that "they earned and were promised that pension" but GM- now dead- can't pay that pension so they gambled and lost.

They should have their pensions trimmed to SS levels if they want us to bail them out.Same story on their golden healthcare plans-go medicare-pay copays etc.
Charlie

The world isn't fair. The auto workers share some of the blame, but not all the blame. Truth is, global commerce is moving toward a global and lower unskilled wage. The wage for unskilled workers in U.S. will fall until it somewhat approaches a global rate. Artificially proping up the wage will just result in serious economic distortions, like we now have, and an unsustainable system.

Charlie makes some excellent points. The country eventually will realize that it can't and won't support these union level wages and benefits. Sad, but the country no longer has the resources to provide that level of relative luxury. In fact, as a nation - we're broke :-(