Archives

Allergies limit the breed choices.

For information on these breeds see > http://www.akc.org/poll/special/presidential.cfm

Ah.....come on......not to be steriotypical, but you did NOT list Pit Bull or Rotweiller with AIDS. That woulg give the man a bit more space from those pesky reporters.

Being a retired mail man I just ave a "thing" about those dogs and even named my 12 second SRT4 Neon Pit Bull.

Ah.....come on......not to be steriotypical, but you did NOT list Pit Bull or Rotweiller with AIDS. That woulg give the man a bit more space from those pesky reporters.
.....

Then maybe Barney (http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=93459&videoChannel=72) should be held over from the old administration.

Ah.....come on......not to be steriotypical, but you did NOT list Pit Bull or Rotweiller with AIDS. That woulg give the man a bit more space from those pesky reporters.


and its those types of ignorant comments that lead the lemmings off the AR cliff.
Please stop confusing bad owners with bad breeds.

Remember, ALL DOGS BITE!

FYI-

The Top 3 indicators of whether a dog will bite-

1) Multiple dogs
2) Intact (Males especially)
3) Running at large

Each of these is present in over 3/4 of all recordable dog bites, and together at least one is in over 90% of all dog attacks.

Breed traits do not show any correlation to severity or frequency of attacks and are too unreliable to be of use according to the CDC.

-GSD
-Rottie
-AST/SBT/APBT (Pits)
-Akita
-Chow Chow

Have all been "demon dogs" at one point or another in the media over the last 50 years.

FWIW, I think Obama should be the 3rd President with a "1st Pit". Wilson and FDR were #1 and #2.

All stats and info from
Fatal Dog Attacks (http://www.fataldogattacks.com/) by Karen Delise.

Presidential pups courtesy Understand-a-bull (http://understand-a-bull.com/PitbullInformation/FamousOwners.htm)

Severity of attack could be correlated with head/jaw size. Ankle biter dogs will have a hard time doing much damage to an adult ,so they don't get reported much despite pretty aggressive behavior. Pit bulls, rotts etc have big heads with shortish jaws so they have lots more mechanical advantage than pointy nosed dogs like Greyhounds. Powerful jaw muscles that "pull" with very little angle on the lower jaw can really exert lots of force/pressure.

Big head shortish snout= bad bite.

Now some"scary" breeds- Dobermanns- don't really have a big head, and they have longish snouts. German Shepards don't really have a nasty looking head/jaw either. Still, If I had to choose to be bitten by a Pit or a Dobermann, it wouldn't be the Pit.

Any dog can bite, but some have inherently more human damaging potential.
Charlie

Personally, I think the family should start looking for a top notch trainer before getting the dog. I'm very, very, very picky with trainers as I do performance activities with my dogs. I'd say that less than 1% of all trainers out there actually compete or have competed with dogs successfully. To me, if a trainer has no proof of their capabilities in the ring, they probably aren't the kind I would pay for.

If they are as picky as I am with trainers, it won't matter which breed that Obama's family decide to get. In fact, really great trainers can help them find the best breed/best puppy or dog for them. There are so many temperament tests out there that you can do on dogs when looking for one instead of just picking one randomly.

Severity of attack could be correlated with head/jaw size.
Any dog can bite, but some have inherently more human damaging potential.
Charlie

Bzz. Wrong. According to studies with load cells load cells and impressions of bites (see Fatal Dog Attacks again), any Dog of a given mass has roughly the same bite pressure.

Severity of a wound is correlated to the size of a dog, not its jaw size, shape, or anything else.

PookieSoup-

Agree on the training aspect. Even just the basic mannerisms are a huge help. Also, SAFER or other basic temperment testing should be required.

This is getting OT. I'm perfectly willing to continue this in the OT/Pet Forums if anyone wishes.

I may be a bit prejudiced here but, I would vote for a Beagle. They are relatively short-haired and besides,
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/medium/GEDC3877.JPG
they're cute!(The dog anyway:p)

Can you imagine if Charles Shultz was alive and the First Pup was a Beagle? :)

Beagles are probably going to be the next "popular" dog, which is usually a very bad thing. Those breeds tend to get irresponsibly bred, and the health, temperament, and structure of the breed tends to decline while numbers of them in rescue increase rapidly. That happens to many breeds where one wins Westminster, is featured in a movie, or made popular by celebrities.

Newfoundlands have been suffering since Josh won Westminster about 5 years ago. Dalmatians and Cocker Spaniels were hit hard after 101 Dalmatians and Lady and the Tramp. Since I have two rare breeds, I pray that neither of them wins anything big or is ever in a popular main stream movie.

Okay, Jennie's off the soapbox now.

Personally, I think the family should start looking for a top notch trainer before getting the dog. ...snip... In fact, really great trainers can help them find the best breed/best puppy or dog for them. There are so many temperament tests out there that you can do on dogs when looking for one instead of just picking one randomly.

I agree. I wish more folks would consult AND listen to a trainer's advice getting a dog.

There are rescues for every breed of dog and estimates are that 10-15% of the dogs in shelters are purebred. All of my dogs have been pulled from shelters and 4 of 6 in my adult life have been purebred including the two I have right now. So the Obamas can save a life and get a poodle or bichon which may be less likely to affect Malia's allergies.

Beagles are probably going to be the next "popular" dog, which is usually a very bad thing. Those breeds tend to get irresponsibly bred, and the health, temperament, and structure of the breed tends to decline while numbers of them in rescue increase rapidly. That happens to many breeds where one wins Westminster, is featured in a movie, or made popular by celebrities.

Newfoundlands have been suffering since Josh won Westminster about 5 years ago. Dalmatians and Cocker Spaniels were hit hard after 101 Dalmatians and Lady and the Tramp. Since I have two rare breeds, I pray that neither of them wins anything big or is ever in a popular main stream movie.

Okay, Jennie's off the soapbox now.
I hope you are wrong but fear that you probably are right. This dog is the most even tempered dog I have ever know in my life. She doesn't mind young or old or male or female. You can even play with her while she's eating. She has never growled in anger at anyone and has only ever growled while playing tug-of-war or other play activities. She would be a perfect match for young children like the Obama's and I'm assuming Beagles are that way in general. Ok, proud papa is done...for now anyway.:D

Nikki,

Sometimes much more than that are purebreds. Many breed specific rescues will pull their dogs out of those shelters and into rescue. If you look for Goldens at any shelter in Austin, there won't be any, usually. Golden rescue in Austin is fast, efficient, and very responsible.

I can't help but to imagine Malia and Sasha could seach www.petfinder.com (http://www.petfinder.com), their Dad could delegate a trusted friend to screen the prospective pup and the rescue would be delighted with the publicity - they all run on shoestring budgets - most of the staff works on their spare time.

Not always, but my typos are sometimes caused by a shelter cat - Mewdonna
http://www.spencerthelion.com/images/mewdonna07.jpg

Can she be confused for anything other than a Turkish Angora?

Sadly, lots of pets are left in Foreclosed homes, some dogs die eating carpet. :(

I suspect shelters have more purebreds than usual.

Larry,

You're also probably a very responsible owner. :D Gotta remember that most people out there aren't so responsible.

Backlash from breed popularity probably won't set in for another year or so. Regardless of breed, I'm very happy that there is media attention on this issue. It pushes the issue of responsible dog ownership and the issues that people should consider before getting a dog.

I have a page on my website that touches on a few of the issues. I created it when I kept getting calls for puppies (which I don't have any).

http://romanreign.com/whybuy.htm

Warthog,

It isn't the pressure that does large amounts of damage, it is the force. Big masseter muscle= big force. Any dog's bite can cut through flesh, that is what they were designed to do. If they couldn't,they wouldn't have survived.

Of course little dog= little jaw muscle=little damage. Mass of dog is generally very well correlated with mass of head; that is why the studies show that mass=damage.

If better studies were done then they would show head mass or masseter mass would be an even better marker for bite damage. I can think of a rough and ready test. I will supply a 74 lb greyhound.She can bite me,and we'll let a pit bull-most well under 74 lbs- take a chunk out of you. Do you really think that a 74 lb greyhound with its tiny head can do the same damage as a 74 lb pit bull? Hey, same total mass,so according to you, you'll get chewed up no worse them me. Just kidding, of course.

Current studies almost certainly will show a good correlation between mass and bite damage, because bigger mass= bigger head. Studies to check to see if head size/mass , or better yet masseter mass are hardly likely to be done.

Pit bull vs greyhound- same mass- same bite wound potential?? Sure, in an alternate universe.

Charlie

PS-They should get a greyhound. Good natured, handsome elegant , plenty of recycled ones available, don't have too much hair to shed, and close to zero odor. They come from the track already housebroken; a big plus.

Larry,

You're also probably a very responsible owner. :D Gotta remember that most people out there aren't so responsible.

Backlash from breed popularity probably won't set in for another year or so. Regardless of breed, I'm very happy that there is media attention on this issue. It pushes the issue of responsible dog ownership and the issues that people should consider before getting a dog.

I have a page on my website that touches on a few of the issues. I created it when I kept getting calls for puppies (which I don't have any).

http://romanreign.com/whybuy.htm
I did do some Google searches on Beagles and a couple of other breeds before choosing her. I was checking on which breeds would do well being alone since we both work during the day. It was probably the info on their temperament that made me choose this one. Thanks for the link, I'm going to check it out now.

Current studies almost certainly will show a good correlation between mass and bite damage, because bigger mass= bigger head. Studies to check to see if head size/mass , or better yet masseter mass are hardly likely to be done.

Pit bull vs greyhound- same mass- same bite wound potential??



OK, this idiocy is a little too much for me. Charlie is perpetuating an urban legend by claiming that "of course modern science blows it all to hell, they just didn't look at the SAME HYPOTHESIS THEY DISPROVED"::rolleyes:

BTW- yes, a 74lb greyhound will cause the same damage as any other 74lb dog, AST/APBT included. Of course, temperment testing shows that pits are of better temperment than 77% of all other dog breeds, and therefore less likely to bite, so we can't do your comparison test easily.:woot:

But, if you want, find a well-trained dog of each breed with bite training, tell me the time and place, and I'll show up. Bring a helper for each of us.

I'll get the ONE bite, my helper will pop the pits jaws, and we'll have him safely leashed and eating out of our hands before we call 911 to report you got repeatedly chewed by a greyhound.

Actually, I'm interested in these current studies. I don't know of any that exist. There is very little funding that goes into canine (aside from pharmaceutical studies) studies. There's a moderate amount of funding that goes into genetic and health screening studies, but I don't know of any empirical, methodologically sound studies on bite strength or bite damage.

Actually, I'm interested in these current studies. I don't know of any that exist. There is very little funding that goes into canine (aside from pharmaceutical studies) studies. There's a moderate amount of funding that goes into genetic and health screening studies, but I don't know of any empirical, methodologically sound studies on bite strength or bite damage.

You can read it in the oft-referenced Fatal dog attacks. its out of print, but is available in some libraries. Most of this is available elsewhere, but the book is the best compilation out there.

Holy Cow. Even used copies are $250.

Holy Cow. Even used copies are $250.

Yeah, it had a fairly small run but incredible demand due to its quality. Try Inter-Library Loan, that's the easiest way to find a copy.

We took in the two year old small Jack Russell from next door who has small kids he kept biting. This was about two years ago and he still gets into food aggression moods or aggression moods while sitting with my wife. When we first got him, he would bite my wife's foot when she put her shoes on or bite my sons nose when he got close to the dogs face. He stopped most of the biting but still gets in a mood around food and my wife. He is a very friendly dog to strange people and other dogs and us most of the time, but when he get into a mood, he will bring blood and scares. We also have an nine year old Jack Russell we got as a pup who is very smart. The two dogs must have got into a serious fight while we were gone because for a few days the biter would squeal out and wet the floor when the older dog got close. The older Jack will even take the younger Jacks food without a fight, but he will bite anyone else that comes near.

Well, maybe I'll find a copy of the book at Half-Priced or something. I'm interested to see the statistics and the interpretation of the statistics.

"I'll get the ONE bite, my helper will pop the pits jaws, and we'll have him safely leashed and eating out of our hands before we call 911 to report you got repeatedly chewed by a greyhound."[/QUOTE] from warthog

Thanks for proving my point by pointing out that you will need a helper to "pop the pits jaws." You're an honest man. Needless to say, I won't need a "helper" to pop a greyhounds jaws open.

Of course, we are splitting hairs.

Thanks,
Charlie

They should get the smallest dog possible. The cost of organic dog food for the 1st dog could put this country further into nation debt.

Although the way most people care for small dogs, they usually have the worst temperment. I guess they could call it W...

"Needless to say, I won't need a "helper" to pop a greyhounds jaws open.


No. you'll just get chewed repeatedly.:rolleyes: Observe the link about how to handle a 80lb Terrier (http://www.pbrc.net/breaksticks.html).


Ignorance strikes again. but again, you find a pit with bite training, and I'll stand there. I may take longer to restrain them, but I'll get it done no problem.

Pedantic ignorance is thinking a greyhound can deliver as severe a bite as a pitbull.

I'm talking about the mechanics of a bite - not motivation/training etc.



They -pits-are a dogs designed to carry around a big powerful head and jaw muscles. They have more potential to do more damage, not that they do more damage. How often they bite, and how severely they bite is more dependent on how they were raised/trained.

Greyhounds- different design, different purpose.

Since it's going to be a pup, wouldn't obiediance training make this all academic?

Not always, certain breeds have certain tendencies. Some breeds are mouthy. Some are barky. Some, especially herding breeds, love to chase things. Some behaviors can be trained or curbed, but there's always innate desire to do certain things.

I usually say, "Get a breed with behaviors you can live with."

@phoebeisis

While it may indeed be true that a "pitbull" (not sure which actual breed), may be able to inflict more damage from a single bite, the fact that there is potential for that, typically means responsible owners are more diligent with their training of these dogs than other breeds.

I have run into many other breeds that behave badly, and while certainly not powerful enough to take a full grown human down, a large majority of them could take down a small child, fairly easily. This coupled with the fact that many people find mis behavior in the so called non dangerous breed, to be cute, means that most the time it is those types of dogs that do the attacking because they were never taught anything different.

Ultimately it is the handlers that matter and not the breed. A poorly entertained, and poorly trained lapdog, would be a far worse pet than a well trained "pitbull"

Given that the president would have access to best trainers etc etc, that would lead me to hope for a dog that would best represent american patriotism. IMO an american dog breed would be best, however I would not be surprised to see some type of "designer hybrid breed" like a schnoodle.

Pray to all the God(s) that they do not get a "designer" dog.

Koreberg,
Of course the owners are always the fly in the ointment.

I'm maybe a bit biased because we have lots of low life owners who insist on having "bad dogs" as some sort of lifestyle accessory. Once we found a dog-collared-with name # on it. The owner picks it up and whips it with the leash a couple of times to"teach it not to escape." We have more SMFs here then you could believe, and they always own pits,rotts, or even Mastiffs. No point in calling the cops-they wouldn't do anything.

I thought they were going for a rescue-so a puppy will be less likely.

I still vote for greyhounds. Sweetest mutts in the world, no odor, elegant and they remind me of Obama.They are always Housebroken on arrival.

Beagles are fun dogs, but pretty noisy, very active, and they have a strong doggy odor.We had many many beagles when I was a kid( big time diggers/escape artists , and chewers also). Sweet dogs! We recently babysat a 56 lb Beagle who is on Slentrol-or Slendrol- a diet med for mutts.I had no idea there was such a thing out there-dog diet med.Beagles are probably too much dog for the White House. They shred everything- eat everything-Lincoln bedroom- turn it to matchsticks.

Greyhounds! Labs are awfully sweet dogs also.Lotta nice dogs out there.
Charlie

Phoebeisis,

There are tons of puppies in rescue. Many times when irresponsible "breeders" can't sell what they have, they dump them off with a rescue (sometimes with the parents), buy a different breed of dog, and try to make money off of dogs.

If they want a specific breed from rescue, they might want to wait a few weeks-months after Christmas. That's when rescue starts gets an influx of young dogs.

Apologies if anyone already added this bit of humor to the discussion in this thread, but...

How about a pit bull with lipstick, named Hockey Mom?
Alternately, get a Pointer, shave him bald, put a Carhartt shirt on him and name him -
Joe the Pointer.
Without any hair, he'd be hypoallergenic.

...And now back to the other more realistic dog breed suggestions... :D

Apologies if anyone already added this bit of humor to the discussion in this thread, but...

How about a pit bull with lipstick, named Hockey Mom?
Alternately, get a Pointer, shave him bald, put a Carhartt shirt on him and name him -
Joe the Pointer.
Without any hair, he'd be hypoallergenic.

...And now back to the other more realistic dog breed suggestions... :D

I've been waiting to see if this was going to come up, but I was thinking about naming the pit PIG and dressing it in expensive clothes. I hear the RNC has some clothes they need to donate that would be perfect. McCain would go nuts and the dog would go down in history!

GaryG

POOKIESOUP- I hadn't thought of that; we're mainly plugged into the greyhound rescue, and they are almost always adults.

You're right-after Xmas there will be a big selection.Puppies/kittens are fun/cute.We hadn't had one in 20 years, and 3 4 week old kittens just "appeared" for 3 Mays in a row -2004,2005,2006.

Charlie

warthog, I understand the point your making, however charlie is right.

A pitbull delivers a more powerful bite than a dog of its same weight class because of it's jaw and muscular structure. Charlie was not talking about the temperament of the dog.

However pitbulls aim to please their owners, so if they have good owners, they'll be great dogs.
I own a pitbull/boxer mix...It is one amazing friendly dog.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4757466a4560.html

Looks like Peru is offering a gift. I have a friend who has 2 Peruvian hairless dogs. They are ornithologists so they are in Peru regularly to study the birds. One of the dogs' name is Sophia. Sometimes when asked where her husband is, she'll say, "John's in bed with a naked *insert name for female dog*" Dog show folk make lots of jokes with that word.

We got lucky and got our cocker/poodle mix at a very reputable no-kill shelter. Right time, right place, but all the qualities we desired were there -- shed-free coat, 30-lb weight class, good temperament, good health. He probably was a "designer dog" for someone, and we still wonder why he ended up at a shelter, but we got him for $75, and that included a month of free follow-up care from a great vet.

Then Sen. Obama making a pitch against puppy mills. :)

Politics, schmolotics: 'Net goes nuts for Obama dog (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27702300/)

I love dogs, but I don't think the Obama's should get one. Cat's get along much better with the irregular hours/days/weeks/months that come with the job of President.

And much less training time required.

However, since he did promise the kids a dog, I would go with a mixed breed with predominant black lab/german sheperd. These have always been our best behaved and easiest to train dogs.

Interesting fact:
The ability for a dog to track during hunting trips is dependant on two factors: sense of smell and intellegence.

One of the favorite breeds (black lab) has one of the worst senses of smell.

Problem is they are stressing the allergy problem, so cats would definitely be a non-starter.

Problem is they are stressing the allergy problem, so cats would definitely be a non-starter.

Ahh... but there are many short-haired cats that don't bother allergies.

Define intelligence......Let me get the can opener for the worms.

Define intelligence......Let me get the can opener for the worms.

The quick and dirty definition here would be "ability to be trained".

But only for this situation.

Sorry. I hate that definition of canine intelligence. Intelligence as most people use it to describe dogs is "easiest for humans to train to do what humans want them to do." And those breeds are usually Golden Retrievers and Border Collies.

Sorry. I hate that definition of canine intelligence. Intelligence as most people use it to describe dogs is "easiest for humans to train to do what humans want them to do." And those breeds are usually Golden Retrievers and Border Collies.

And that sounds like "most cooperative" rather than "most intelligent", and I think most people would rather have a cooperative dog rather than one that is regarded as most intelligent.
My brother has two Bassett Hounds. They're incredibly "intelligent", but incredibly stubborn, and they resist any form of training. I remember the old saying that there's a razor's edge between genius and insanity, and these two floppy-ear'd hellions have one pair of paws on either side of that edge. :)
My mom has a Boxer, and that's one intelligent and cooperative dog. It's a female who learned the pronoun "she", and so she will come by to say hello any time you use that word. She knows you're talking about her, so she'll come by to see if there's anything interesting going on. Boxers are short-hair dogs - extremely playful and great with children. But I'm not sure if they are allergy-friendly, though.

Max,

It is. Lots of people get frustrated at their dogs for not cooperating and calling it names. But... it's a dog. Why would a dog be motivated to do what a human wants in the first place? If we want a dog to do something we want, we need to motivate it to do the behavior in addition to teaching the behavior. That's not the same thing as intelligence.

Are we ready to close the lid on these worms?

Intelligence is a relative term (which only makes sense when you have something to compare to), rather subjective, and a very poorly defined quality -- even when applied to humans. What is the threshold for "smart?" How does one measure that, exactly?

I generally look for abstract reasoning ability. More aptitude there generally equates to more "intelligence."

I like cats- we have 4 of them now+ 2 neighbor cats that visit regularly- but like others have said, he promised them a dog. Besides, cats aren't as "people pleasing' as dogs. In general they don't come when called-unless they think it involves a treat like cheapo stinky "light"tuna fish. They-cats- might not like all the commotion that there must be in the White House.

Yeah labs and lab mixes always seem to be great dogs. I had no idea they weren't good "sniffers"- but I guess that is relative to other dogs which might mean they are still awfully good sniff trackers relative to humans.

Charlie
PS I see that Michael Vicks pits are now very successful wine pitchmen.

How about the beautiful German Short-Haired Pointer? We recently lost ours to a kidney malady unknown to us from birth. She was just 17 months old. We will get another in time. Just a wonderful, wonderful dog.
brian

Poll: Obamas' puppy should come from shelter (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/12/16/obama.puppy.poll/index.html)

Obamas’ new puppy makes a big splash (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30173033/)