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Here (http://iere.org/ILEA/lcas/taharaetal2001.html) is a summary of a study done at Seikei University (Tokyo), 2001 which compares the total carbon dioxide emissions over the lifetimes of gasoline, hybrid, and electric cars.
What I found fascinating is that the hybrid came out better than 2 of the 3 electric variants analyzed.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i45/jvnn/lcasevgfig1.gif
Figure 1 - Total carbon dioxide emissions over the lifetimes of gasoline, hybrid, and electric cars. The electric car is shown three times, with differing use energies depending on the method of generating electricity: coal, liquified natural gas, or hydroelectric.

The ILEA is now defunct, but their reports are maintained here (http://iere.org/ILEA/index2.html).
I liked being able to get a definitive answer to nagging questions like "Paper vs. Plastic Bags" etc
Does anyone know of other sources of this type of info?

Those numbers are questionable at best.
:eyebrow:

In short the graph shows to much CO2 usage for the EV.... if you cut their usage numbers in 1/2 you would be closer to the dirty Electricity we had in 1997.


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Annual average kWh consumption for U.S. household, 1997 10,428
Annual average CO2 emissions from U.S. household's electricity, 1997, lb 14,084

Above taken from :
Emissions Offsets
Primary data source: Annual Energy Review 2000. (Washington, D.C.: Energy
Information Administration, DOE/EIA-0384(2000), November 2001. The Annual Energy
Review can be accessed on the Web at <http://www.eia.doe.gov/aer>.

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The Above means that in 1997 each 1 kWh of electrical energy produced ~0.74 lbs of CO2.

A 5 mile per kWh EV is not that advanced when current models like the Aptera are closer to 9 miles per kWh... but even if we assume a less advanced "crappy" EV at 5 Miles per kWh... that means the EV in 1997 would need 0.2 kWh per Mile which would produce 0.148 Pounds of CO2 which =~67 grams of CO2 per Mile.

A Gas Sipping ~60MPG Honda Insight-I is rated and tested at 129 Grams of CO2 per Mile.

hmmm ~67 for EV ... vs 129 for one of the better HEVs??? sorry EVs produce less CO2 per mile driven... the graph is wrong even with dirtier 1997 numbers.

So The sited work that assumes the EV would produce more per mile... is just wrong.... and that was back in 1997... the U.S. Electricity has gotten cleaner sense 1997... and it continues to get cleaner over time... the EV will automatically benefit from the cleaning of the grid where the car does not get any better.

Also over time we now have EVs like the Aptera that go further on that same 1kWh of electrical energy... thus further improving the EV numbers, the same way a new car does better.

So at ~120mpg in my Insight I'm competitive with a lower end EV? Sweet! :D

So electricity generated by gasoline is cleaner than Coal and whatever LNG is?

So at ~120mpg in my Insight I'm competitive with a lower end EV? Sweet! :D

yup... the EV has more manufacturing due to the batteries and such... so yes if you're at ~120 MPG you are up there with entry level EVs....

Of course as the electricity getting cleaner it gets hard to keep up with it in MPG...

Also the more advanced EVs you would have to get over 200 MPG to break even...

If the two are combined... well that is the ideal ... for a non-bicycle :woot:

Even if there is always some environmental impact.... after all just by breathing you are putting out CO2... ( personally I think CO2 is over used / not used properly )... but if CO2 is a pollutant than just by living you are polluting.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/605/Day_30_tank.jpg

:D

LNG = liquified natural gas

There are several other life cycle assessments to be found on the web. Start at

www.pacinst.org

find their pdf critiquing the CNW 'study'. Many refs and footnotes.

DAS

Current EPA figures for CO2 emissions per kWh production are 1.9 lbs from oil, 2.1lbs for coal and 1.3lbs from "other sources."

CO2 emissions for gasoline are 19.4 lbs/gallon and 22.2 lbs/gallon for diesel.

Calc for gas doesn't change if you are a hybrid or non-hybrid (except PHEV).

For my oil burning electric company, emissions per mile using Jay's (TheForce's) Hymotion Prius as the EV example:

- EV (Hwy) = .21 pounds per mile
- EV (City) = .42 ppm
- gas @ 65 MPG = .3 ppm
- gas @ 50 MPG = .39 ppm

So, the charts look about right. It's all in what's used to produce the elec.

Current EPA figures for CO2 emissions per kWh production are 1.9 lbs from oil, 2.1lbs for coal and 1.3lbs from "other sources."

CO2 emissions for gasoline are 19.4 lbs/gallon and 22.2 lbs/gallon for diesel.

Calc for gas doesn't change if you are a hybrid or non-hybrid (except PHEV).

For my oil burning electric company, emissions per mile using Jay's (TheForce's) Hymotion Prius as the EV example:

- EV (Hwy) = .21 pounds per mile
- EV (City) = .42 ppm
- gas @ 65 MPG = .3 ppm
- gas @ 50 MPG = .39 ppm

So, the charts look about right. It's all in what's used to produce the elec.

I'll agree the usage number shouldn't change just from hybird to not... the chart tries to show the difference in MPG between the two... by averaging all gasoline MPG together in one and all hybrid MPG together in the other...

but even your numbers make the chart wrong.

that chart shows a ~50% increase in CO2 for the usage of the EV(coal) over the same number of miles as the Hybrid and the EV(LNG) is shown as equal in CO2 usage...

your own numbers flip that ratio the opposite direction... with the 65MPG gas being ~43% more pounds CO2 per mile than the EV(Hwy).... even using your numbers it takes ~93MPG just to break even with the EV for usage...

And at a ~43% difference even with your numbers... the EV usage should drop by 43% from where it is on the chart.

Another way to look at it: back in '04 I did a paper for one of my college classes on the environmental impact of automobiles. The paper and sources are long gone, but I did remember seeing an EIA assessment from ~2000 or so which stated that if you replaced your "average" current car (I believe they assumed it was the median age of a registered automobile that year) with an "average" new car, it would take upwards of seven years for the cleaner emissions of the new car to break even with the emissions produced in manufacturing the car.