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The lesson we take from this is that our Hybrid Synergy Drive continues to look like a pretty good way to go. (http://blog.toyota.com/2008/10/how-do-diesels-compare-to-hybrids.html)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/reenactment2.jpgRon Kirkpatrick – Open Road – Oct. 31, 2008

Honda IMA vs. Toyota HSD vs. Honda Turbo-Diesel earlier this year during the Greatest Automobile Race Reenactments.

HSD sure is a way to go although I wish we had the European Yaris/Corolla with the 1.4L D4-D turbo-diesel available here as a choice as well ;) -- Ed.

If you follow what’s happening in the automotive scene, you probably know that Volkswagen is bringing the latest in what it calls "clean diesels" to its U.S. dealerships for 2009. You may also know that several publications have lauded the ’09 VW Jetta diesel for its fuel economy.

So we thought it might be interesting to take a look at the Jetta and its numbers to see how they compare to those of hybrids. Using numbers from the federal government’s Environmental Protection Agency, here’s what we found.

We found that the EPA rates the Jetta at a combined mpg figure of 34. Based on that, the EPA calculates that the Jetta’s annual fuel cost would be $1,746, that it would use 11.6 barrels of petroleum per year and that its carbon-footprint number – i.e., tons of CO2 emitted per year – would be 6.2.

What we found is that according to the EPA, the Jetta diesel has a larger carbon footprint than any of the vehicles we looked at, except for the Chevy Tahoe hybrid. Here’s how they stacked up:

The Civic Hybrid turned in an EPA rating of 42/combined and its annual fuel costs are listed as $1,328. The EPA says it will burn 8.2 barrels of petroleum annually and that its carbon-footprint number is 4.4…

Ford’s Escape hybrid, meanwhile, is rated at 32 mpg/combined, an annual fuel cost of $1,747, 10.7 barrels of petroleum annually and a carbon-footprint number of 5.7

The Prius leads the league in mpg numbers at 46/combined. The EPA calculates its annual fuel cost at $1,211, barrels of petroleum used at 7.4 and its carbon footprint at 4.0 – another league-leading number.

Our Camry Hybrid doesn’t quite match those numbers but still does pretty well. Its mpg is rated at 34/combined and an annual fuel cost of $1,641. The EPA calculates that it will burn 10.1 barrels of fuel per year with a carbon-footprint number of 5.4… http://blog.toyota.com/2008/10/how-do-diesels-compare-to-hybrids.html

Hi All:

___In response to Ron’s excellent article, I sent him the following:

___In my short drive of the 09 Jetta TDI w/ a stick, the TDI achieves slightly less FE than the Prius-II under what we call the Prius’ Super Highway Mode or “SHM” while at a slower speed highway cruise. Around town, the Jetta TDI is not even close.

___That being said, the Prius still needs a little help on the highway when compared to the world’s best performance diesel (imho) which is Honda’s 2.2L iCDTi. The iCDTi is not US EPA emissions compliant so is not offered in the US of course. I am also not including the smaller and sometimes under performing, European sub-compacts including Toyota’s own Yaris/Corolla equipped Verso’s, all with < 2.0L diesels.

___Here are my review results.

2007 Honda Civic iCDTi (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6526) -- 85.5 mpg US over 1,765 miles:

2006 Toyota Prius-II (http://www.cleanmpg.com/index.php?page=garage&displayunits=MPG(US)&viewcar=609) -- 76.5 mpg US over 1,605 miles.

2002 Toyota Prius-I (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5172) -- 75.4 mpg US over 1,590 miles:

2008 Honda Civic Hybrid-II (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15422) -- 73.2 mpg US over 503 miles.

2008 Toyota Prius-II -- 71.1 mpg US in the “Chicago to NY on a single tank of fuel (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11441).”

In the Prius-II vs. Civic iCDTi head to head, the iCDTi achieved 60.4 mpg US over 2005 miles vs. the Prius-II’s 56.5 mpg US over 1,966 miles during the “1908 Centennial Reenactment of the Greatest Automobile Race-II (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9121).”

___As you have already mentioned, the Jetta TDI’s carbon footprint is where the TDI really falls on its face. Add to it the fuel cost due to the diesel price differential plus the much higher smog forming emissions even at Tier II/Bin 5 and the TDI falls far behind the Prius. Versus the Prius, the TDI’s 0 – 60 may be its forte’ but anyone pushing that capability will not be achieving but ½ the EPA anyway.

___I also want to mention that the 2WD/4WD Tahoe/Yukon 2-Mode hybrids are “Full” hybrids as they can propel themselves under an all-electric only mode. At 21 and 20 mpg combined respectively however, who cares.

___Good Luck

___Wayne Gerdes - Owner/Admin – CleanMPG (CleanMPG.com)

I'd be interested to see what kind of numbers you cold get in a Yaris 1.4d MT. I've talked to a guy in Europe who has one and doesn't care about FE yet consistently gets over 52 US MPG in mixed driving and plenty of over 60 mph speeds.

Using Wayne's numbers and the EPA's calc. of 19.4 lbs carbon per gallon of gasoline and 22.2 for diesel, the Honda diesel matches the Prius (I or II) with .26 lbs carbon released per mile.

The HCH actually releases more with .27 lbs per mile.

Yargh! Emissions need to be measured by mile, not gallon... one of the valid complaints of EU authorities.

Tier 2/Bin 5 also requires diesels to have the same emissions as gas cars - no difference anymore.

So, the Honda diesel is cheaper to produce, has better mileage, and releases the same amount of carbon (as a hybrid!)... and it only gets better with biodiesel.

Gasoline hybrids appear to provide roughly 120% improvement over similar plain engines. Diesel, an additional 10%. Of course, a diesel hybrid would offer the most improvement, using today's capabilities. These figures vary by usage though. Hybrid is better in stop an go and diesel is better in steady state (highway).

Maybe it's stuff like this Toyota propaganda holding us back?

Tier 2/Bin 5 also requires diesels to have the same emissions as gas cars - no difference anymore.
There is actually still a large difference between diesels and gasoline cars. NOx reduction with a diesel is quite a task, while it's much much easier with gasoline cars. Both can be Tier 2 Bin 5, but the diesels still have about 3x the NOx emissions of gasoline cars, which are way under the limit. A relative strong point for diesels is the evaporative emissions, which is mainly because gasoline is so much more volatile than diesel fuel.

If you feel like looking at the numbers:
Jetta TDI (http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2009/volkswagen_pc_a0070279_2d0_u2_diesel.pdf)
Jetta PZEV (http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2009/volkswagen_pc_a0070273_2d5_pz.pdf)
Civic Hybrid (Tier 2 Bin 2) (http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2009/honda_pc_a0230478_1d3_pz_hevge.pdf)

I'm still waiting for someone to combine the best of both worlds...
.
_H*

Hi Al:

___I do not know if you know about the European only BMW 118 and 120d’s but they are mild hybrids with a magnificent 2.0L diesel providing the power. Start/Stop and Regen very similar to Honda’s IMA but not quite as advanced as it runs off a Pb-Acid 12V system IIRC. It may be boosted to 36V but either way, it’s a start.

___Nobody would want to drive a Prius up against the 118d or the aforementioned Civic iCDTi on a highway cruise as it would come back broken. It would be closer than most think as the cross country runs proved but that iCDTi in particular was a very special fuel economy making monster. If it was only here today :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I still favor Hybrids over diesels for many reasons:

#1> Progress:
HEVs advance more spin off fields than Diesels do... Batteries, Electronics, Electric Motors, etc...

#2> HEVs ability to recycle otherwise wasted energy:
Regenerative Braking is a easy one... but now that you have a big enough battery to put it somewhere you can start looking at other things... like waste heat recovery from the ICE from Radiator or Exhaust ... solar paint ... etc... all of these increase the vehicles total efficiency and are things that the HEVs have over Diesel.

#3> Stepping stone to better vehicles:
HEVs help to build the tech and public acceptance to move to the next step of PHEV... then the next step of multi fuel PHEV ... then EVs... Diesels at most have one step, Multi-Fuel.

#4> Efficiency:
Currently the Insight-I has been shown by a EPA examination of the Insight's Lean Burn Engine in 2004 in the paper document # EPA420-D-04-002... showed a thermal efficiency of 48%... In addition to normal friction reduction in the Insight's Engine which already put it far better than 90%+ of the other engines out there , during lean burn friction is reduced by up to another 8%.... very very very few vehicle ICE engines ( Diesel included ) can get as high as 48%... much less also get the reduced friction on top of that... When the Normal ICE running at ~20% efficient Diesel is more efficient ( although all that I've seen tested fall under 45% ) and its fuel brings more energy ... but when you compare to the efficiencies of HEVs like the Insight-I... well diesels don't come out as good... If you put a diesel engine in a Insight shell without the IMA you would get lower / worse MPG... especially cruising on the highway where Lean Burn Shines.

#5> Upgrade:
A HEV can be upgraded to a multi-fuel engine like a Diesel can... but the HEV can also be upgraded to a PHEV as it already has most of the parts needed to make it work... thus giving more room for improvement.

-----------------

But that is just my opinion... I have heard many people argue in favor of diesels... and they have potential... but I think their time has past... like Oil their peak has already come and gone... like oil they are now facing eventual decline... only question is how fast the decline happens.

Hi Iamian:

___About #4. The 2.2L Civic iCDTi’s best real world drive home from work through the Chicago Interstate nightmare yielded 112 mpg. The Insight’s best over the exact same drive was 117.2 mpg. Probably more like 125 using today’s techniques.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2007_Civic_iCDTi_Hatch_-_112_0_mpg_-_102_2_miles_on_the_drive_home.jpg
2007 Honda Civic iCDTi 6-speed -- 112.0 mpg

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/504/117_2_MPG_09-23-2004.jpg
2000 Honda Insight 5-speed -- 117.2 mpg

___Comp level P&G would allow the much heavier Civic near 150 mpg vs. the Insight’s 210 to 220 and this is all about the weight, not the ICE.

___This is in a 3,000 pound, 5-door hatch with all the safety gear including front, side and side curtains, ABS, EBD and VSC plus capable of the 0 to 60 dance in under 9 seconds vs. the 1,800 pound 2-door.

___If the 2.2L iCDTi or an imaginary 1.3L iDTEC were placed in the Insight as slick and light as it is, the diesel would destroy the 1.0L without a question. It is simply that good.

___As far as technology, Honda’s IMA can do little other than recover energy via regenerative braking but the Assist program completely wastes it imho. Not much more can be done with it until they move to a clutched IMA. The Prius/Volt like setups? There is a lot to look forward to there :)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

As much as I love my Insight, that iCDTi would be one heck of a vehicle to push numbers in around here!

___If the 2.2L iCDTi or an imaginary 1.3L iDTEC were placed in the Insight as slick and light as it is, the diesel would destroy the 1.0L without a question. It is simply that good.

___As far as technology, Honda’s IMA can do little other than recover energy via regenerative braking but the Assist program completely wastes it imho. Not much more can be done with it until they move to a clutched IMA. The Prius/Volt like setups? There is a lot to look forward to there :)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Do you have any testing data that shows the iCDTi ( or any automotive Diesel engine ) getting better than 48% thermal efficiency? All that I have read shows Diesels car engines in the 35% range and always lower than 45% thermal Efficiency when tested.

We have test data showing the Insight-I ICE 1.0L getting 48% ... if you have no test or any automotive diesel engine that can get that same efficiency or better ... than I don't see how you can assume it is better... unless you are depending on the diesel fuels higher energy content to gasoline in order to get you better numbers... but that would be about the fuel itself not the engine.

The IMA as it was built does the first easiest step of braking energy recycling ... and you are correct to a skilled driver this is a minor thing... but the majority of the energy from the fuel... even the 15% more energy that diesel fuel brings to the engine.... the majority of that energy in any engine is still thrown away as waste heat... out the radiator ... out the exhaust .... the HEV can be built to recover / recycle some of this wasted energy and give it back to the batteries ... a diesel engine does not get as much of a benefit form this as a HEV will.

I 100% agree the IMA system has allot of room for improvement... I would love to see / get a second clutch to the system...

As for the MPG numbers you were giving ... if you want to compare the two engines without bias to the fuel... you have to lower the diesel numbers by the additional energy content diesel fuel brings over gasoline... 15% more energy in diesel fuel... this makes the 112 mpg make the engine equivalent to ~95MPG on gasoline... compared to 125 MPG from an Insight.

Diesels are good... don't get me wrong... but I'll take a tested and proven 48% thermal efficiency over any of the automotive diesels that I've seen tested... which as far as I have read make out under 45%, and usually are in the upper 30's.

What no issue with my other reasons for why I prefer HEV over diesel??? OR are we agreeing those other things are benefits HEV has over Diesel?

Hi Iamian:

___I do not think we need any testing data other than the real world capabilities of both vehicles as shown and driven. It is one of the items that ticks me off about the government and university labs. They have all efficiency maps that do not mean a thing in the real world just as the 1,900 pound 1.0L SI-ICE has at best a 20% advantage over a 3,000 pound 2.2L turbo-diesel. The 48% you are speaking of goes right out the window any time you have a NOx purge event which diesel’s do not have. Some are using a 5th post injection into the exhaust manifold to light off the DPF however…

___Anyway, the real world numbers prove that this 2.2L iCDTi is superior to the HCH-I, II and Prius-II. If you were to drive the iCDTi at 50 mph running at 90 mpg, you would discover what this magnificent diesel has to offer far and above any hybrid available to us to date including the Insight given the actual size and weight. As of this writing, the iCDTi buries both the Prius-II and the HCH-II under 95% of the driving scenarios I would consider driving in. The Prius has an advantage only in an inner city stop and crawl. The HCH-II has no advantage whatsoever compared to the iCDTi.

___The best way to drive a hybrid is to not use its hybrid functionality and this is why we can achieve such high FE out of the Prius, HCH-II and vehicles like the iCDTi are so darn good.

___If you want to base FE on the energy content of the fuel, you had better include the extra energy needed to crack and refine gasoline vs. diesel as well. In the real world, the only item an end user has to be concerned with is price at the pump. On a wholesale level, gasoline is running $1.39 while diesel is running $2.02 per gallon.

___Diesels are more than good when designed by a first rate engine company. All you have to do is look at the size, weight and amenities of the Civic iCDTi and compare it to any other 4 or 5-door available on the planet. None offer the FE capability and only the Insight can top it due to the loss of 1,100 pounds, much lower RRc based tires, a lower Cd and much smaller frontal area. If you believe the Insight’s 48% lab results are why you purchase a vehicle, you are not taking into account the actual real world capability of either. If the Insight was a 4 or 5-door with all the latest safety HW, it would not stand a chance vs. the much higher performance 2.2L turbo-diesel from the same company. The only problem being is that we do not have a Civic iCDTi here where it would do the most good. In Europe, it is less expensive than the HCH-II and Prius-II off the showroom floor. In Europe, it gets tagged with other taxes due to the 2.2L CI-ICE size however :(

___I do not care if you choose an HEV, PHEV, Diesel or BEV. I am just stating that if you were to buy one vehicle to do everything most need, the iCDTi would be the one to own. And again, only the Europeans receive this opportunity :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne

We need to take real world results over academic conclusions. The iCDTi is a lot more car than the Insight and matches it in efficiency.

The US, by default, let CARB, on a flawed basis, stifle diesel use in passenger cars here, wasting millions of barrels of oil (theoretically, 30%).

I'm only a diesel advocate because it is obviously one of the best 'transition' solutions. We're headed to pure EV someday. The question is simply whether diesel emissions (under T2B5 regs) are acceptable during the transition period.

Guessing at a 12 year transition period (3 four year production generations) to majority EV use, what is the pollution cost from a bell curve population of diesel passenger vehicles going from zero (today), growing, then sagging off?

Don't like the numbers? Mod the parameters. Anyway you slice those figures, it come out to be low impact (relative to other transition alternatives).

The iCDTi is a lot more car than the Insight and matches it in efficiency.

Bingo. With that car I could do all of what I do with the Elantra plus most of what I achieve mileage wise in the Insight. Insight numbers with a back seat for the baby? Rock on!! :Banane09:

Sadly we aren't given that choice. :(

Ugh. Just found this: Diesel TSX (http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=796361) spiked.

Even in the uglier, fatter, 'euro' Accord, it would have been nice. Honda... Honda... Hello?

What!??? Hello Honda? We need that, and we need it yesterday. :mad::angry::angry:

Hi Flatty:

___Darn it, I missed that one last month :(

___And it is to bad but just goes to show how tough Tier II/Bin 5 can be with a diesel. VW’s solution must be truly advanced to beat it.

___Now what the hell do we wait for? The Insight-II is going to be good I am sure but it will not be that good?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Oh, man. :ccry:

The injustice!!!!

Subaru's boxer diesel is the next to watch.

I-DTEC designed for T2/B5:

9/07 Honda Press Release: The all-new i-DTEC is the 2nd diesel engine Honda has developed. By further improving the current award winning i-CTDi's superb performance, fuel economy and emission efficiencies, i-DTEC has achieved various stringent emission standards in the U.S., Japan and Europe (Honda test data).

The first phase of the programme - compliance with the Euro 5 legislation expected in 2009 - has already reached fruition, and an example of the new engine, which makes its first appearance in next year's Accord range, is being shown on the stand.

Honda continues to work on the second phase of development of its latest diesel engine and has already achieved compliance with the stringent US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Tier II/Bin 5 emissions requirements. This is of particular significance to the European market in that the Tier II standards are even more demanding than the Euro 6 requirements which remain at the proposal stage.

We didn't bring up a biodiesel option in the equation. It becomes more practical with very high mileage cars.

Diesels under T2/B5 do produce more particulate matter and NOx than gasoline. But, biodiesel cuts the PM in half and, although increasing NOx by up to 10%, has no sulfur making it less toxic and easier to scrub. It's only use issue is a low cloud point (~35F/2C) in pure form (B100).

Supply and distribution are a concern, but you always have mineral diesel as backup. Given such a low consumption of diesel in these cars, you mitigate some of the availability issues. It's pretty easy to keep up, if you only need 72 gallons to run for 6 months.

And, zero imported oil.

Before we get carried away with thinking zero imported oil, we must consider that a barrel of crude only refines down to about 7-8 gallons of diesel vs. about 20 gallons of gasoline.

What is the ratio produced by the cracking process over in EU?

What? No incoming Accord or TSX diesel????

Damn... Ok... I miss torque. No fair our only fuel efficient cars have to be the slowest things on the road.

Hey!! Slow is good! ;)

No TSX iDTEC? That sucks, it was one car that I was really hoping would show people what a good diesel can do, and something I would have looked at for myself in a few years. If only they would reconsider and at least offer the 6-speed after all the work they put into getting it certified. They may be surprised at how many people will go for a manual transmission with that engine.

What is the ratio produced by the cracking process over in EU?
I'm not sure on exact numbers, but in the UK at least, they make more diesel than gasoline. Their diesel/gasoline supply ratio is close to their diesel/gasoline demand ratio, which seems to indicate that different refining processes can produce different ratios to meet demand.
http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file39390.pdf

Hey!! Slow is good! ;)

True that. But the Jetta TDI I got a chance to test drive seemed quite a bit faster even while taking it easy. It's just the sensation of having the power at low speeds. Assists doesn't seem to do much other than make a pretty white/green bar and waste battery power.

I can understand that sentiment -- particularly as you can't compare without the assist in the HCH-II to see what just the engine will do. I've installed an "inhibit" button in my Insight and what I discovered is that there really isn't a whole lot more available than what I experience when going easy enough to avoid assist... the engine really is running pretty much at capacity.

I'm told assist will really pep up the performance in this car, but I've never experienced that personally because I avoid it so assiduously. ;)

I can understand that sentiment -- particularly as you can't compare without the assist in the HCH-II to see what just the engine will do. ...

Good point, Sean.

However you can see what the HCH-II is like without assist. This happens when the IPU enters the dreaded "managed mode" and under those circumstances you get no assist and no regen. This happens when the IPU is too hot, too cold, or with an IMA exception.

Anyway, with no assist the HCH-II is VERY slow. So slow that some HCH-II owners decided to sell the car solely on the account of this. They claimed is was actually dangerously slow and they could not stomach it.

The assist appears to shave off roughly 4-6 seconds on a typical 0-60 MPH sprint.

Cheers;

MSantos

Heh... how the times change. I had an 86 Civic four door sedan, and to me it was slow as heck even if I red lined through the gears ;). I really miss that little beast now, and it had something like a 91 HP engine? So long as you didn't load it down with people or gear it was a great little point A to B car. Putting 5 teenagers in it made for very slow going though.

A 4-6s difference is "dangerously slow?" Wow. People have rather different expectations today than a couple of decades ago.

A 4-6s difference is "dangerously slow?" Wow. People have rather different expectations today than a couple of decades ago.

You are SO right. For many of us it is already too fast... but for the masses of gear-heads out there this is one of the main points of ridicule they use against the car. :(


Cheers;

MSantos

I would like to have more control over the assist. A switch would be nice. H

Before we get carried away with thinking zero imported oil, we must consider that a barrel of crude only refines down to about 7-8 gallons of diesel vs. about 20 gallons of gasoline.


Well, zero is zero. Some of us would like to head that way.

Regarding refining fractions, the process can be optimized to favor diesel production or gasoline. US refineries "favor" gasoline.Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Problem (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/07/AR2005080700888.html) (I'm assuming that saving 30% of our crude is not in the interest of the industry? Let's let the europeans do that.)

An excellent, if a little dated, report of europe's use of diesel, see: Dutch diesel report 2004 (http://ie.jrc.ec.europa.eu/publications/scientific_publications/2004/EUR%2021378%20EN.pdf)

This powerpoint is a US counterpart in 2005: EIA Diesel Light Duty Vehicle Forecast (http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/presentations/2005/dflvehicles/dflvehicles.ppt)

I still don't see why it has to be either-or, why not make an expensive diesel hybrid for the upcoming gas crunches, but make them stylish and efficient that way the cars as fashion accessory types can get enough to bring the cost down and they might can make an Insight III budget hybrid out of it?

___Wayne

I agree with most of what you said... and this is all 90% opinion anway... but...

While I care about the efficiency ... you are right most people don't care as much as I do and care more about the cost per mile... but if you are going to talk about cost per mile... EVs will spank just about any other option, that isn't a Bicycle... HEV leads to PHEV... PHEV leads to EV.... Diesels don't lead to anything but more diesels.... this is a strike against diesels and in favor of the HEVs.

When you come to a red light or stop sign... No automotive diesel in production stops... that is wasted fuel... and it is a point against the diesel and in favor of the Hybrid... more to some people less to others... but it is still a strike against diesels.

A HEV can be built for wasted heat recovery from the radiator or the exhaust and feed that wasted energy make to the Electric drive system... it doesn't matter that this isn't being done... HEVs can exploit this potential far more than any diesel can... this is another strike against the diesel and for the HEV...

As for the "real" world... the real world says the Insight-I with its HEV drive system spanks all diesel options.... that is the "real" world... now if you want to leave the "real" world and start talking about the "what if" world... or the "what could be" world... then the HEV still has more potential for greater vehicle efficiency than any diesel does... and once you open up "what if" and "what could be" then you open the door for EVs, PHEVs, etc... and the diesel still gets spanked hard.

:Banane26:

But that's just me... I know there are plenty of people who love their diesels ... and that is fine... diesels can be good... but I still side with the HEVs for their side effects and for the higher possible potentials.

I would like to have more control over the assist. A switch would be nice. H

We do have a switch it just needs to be programmed the way it is labeled.

You have "D" regular drive mode should be the eco-drive mode. (Minimal assist, work it like a VW throttle where the first 25% are very wide for lightfoot driving, and the second 25% is for hypermile style acceleration, with the next 15% for merging with the crazies, the next 5% for cruising at the speed of the crazies, and pedal to the floor is WOT.

You have "S" Sport or Second depending on which person in Honda you talk to. This should be used with proper programming for the lead-foots. The whole first half of the pedal performs like currently, the second half performs like S-mode does today.

You have "L" Low gearing for mountain passes and such, leave this as is.


All of this can be implemented in an ECU Update from Honda.

Hi Iamian:

___We already know BEV’s are the final solution. Unfortunately, Honda is not heading in that direction.

___The BMW 118 and 120D’s do shut down at stop lights and signs automatically. They have done so since 07 and are equipped with a 2.0L super diesel.

___A diesel is already more efficient than a gasoline engine anything because a diesel is 25% more efficient than the gasoline engines Otto cycle. You can look at the PNGV and why the Big 2.5 used “Diesel” engines in them.

___The Insight has lower FE than the .8L diesel equipped Smart Fortwo, 1.4L TDI VW Polo and 1.6L TDCi Ford Fiesta. We are talking about what Honda placed in an Insight vs. what they could have placed in one. There is a reason why only 18,000 or so were manufactured. It performs its intended purpose near the top of its class. What it doesn’t do is meet 90% of the American consumers needs for a price most deem acceptable which is what the iCDTi would do. Honda simply has not supplied it just as they do not supply the more fuel efficient engines from European Fit/Jazz or Civic in our Fit/Civics here either :(

___When it comes to HEV’s, the Prius-III PHEV will blow everything out but again, Honda is working on no such consumer based animal that we know of currently.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

They did take the EV+ and turn that work into the FCX, which lead to the FCX Clarity

hopefully some of the clarities running around HQ are really BEV mules and they didn't waste that work.

I'd make every PHEV disappear from the lot anyway, hopefully they have something in the works for late this MY coming or early the next MY after. All they need is a bigger battery and a clutch between the IMA motor and the engine, and of course new control software. Crosses fingers that the CR-Z is hiding this tech.

Kacey, you've got it exactly -- I keep hoping for a clutched IMA with a beefier battery and the ability to have more control over when the vehicle uses assist. That would bring Honda up to speed with full EV capability rather handily while retaining the elegant simplicity of their system. Put a plug on it and away you go. :)

Wayne, I'm still really disappointed there was no positive response from Honda to your fantastic numbers in that iCDTi. I would so dearly love to own that vehicle!!!

___The BMW 118 and 120D’s do shut down at stop lights and signs automatically. They have done so since 07 and are equipped with a 2.0L super diesel.



The Insight has lower FE than the .8L diesel equipped Smart Fortwo, 1.4L TDI VW Polo and 1.6L TDCi Ford Fiesta.


I was wrong... good for them... hope to see more like it.... thanks for the information.


___A diesel is already more efficient than a gasoline engine anything because a diesel is 25% more efficient than the gasoline engines Otto cycle. You can look at the PNGV and why the Big 2.5 used “Diesel” engines in them.


I do agree that diesel engines "can" be more efficient... they are not guaranteed to be more efficient just because they are diesel... it will depend on what engine is up against what engine ... and under what conditions.

You seem to be focused on Gasoline vs Diesel ... This is not about a gasoline engine vs a diesel engine... this thread is about straight Diesel vs HEV.

A HEV can use a diesel ... which would allow a HEV to have all the diesel benefits and the HEV benefits... some will over lap... but the diesel by itself up against the HEV platform the HEV wins in all things.... because it can include the diesel ... if and when the diesel is worth having ... and sometimes the diesel just isn't good enough.... diesels are not miracle machines that are the best choice under all conditions.

I also still stand by the statement that the HEV promotes technology growth that is needed for PHEV and BEVs... a non-HEV Diesel engine does not promote these things... and to me if for nothing else this alone is a major reason to go HEV...

I also do not share your faith in the gap in efficiency between high efficiency gasoline engine and a diesel engine.... I don't think it is as significant as you seem to assume.


___When it comes to HEV’s, the Prius-III PHEV will blow everything out but again, Honda is working on no such consumer based animal that we know of currently.


As a PHEV yes the Prius-III will have a edge over all non-PHEVs ... but if you want to go into PHEVs ... the Aptera will spank the Prius-III.... the Twike will Spank the Aptera... and a Bicycle will Spank everything else.

Hi Iamian:

___When we drive Insight’s to their max, we remove as many and in fact all aspects of its hybrid drivetrain because it is so lossy. If Sean, Louis, Randall, Billy and myself would have our perfect Insight, it would not have any HEV aspects other than the DC to DC converter. With the pack and subsequent bus gone, the MGSet supplies enough to the DC to DC to keep everything up and that is what we would all love to have. Going down the highway, the HEV aspect is also just a drag and only there to act as a turbo. Dump it and we will get another 1 to 2 more mpgs from the leanburn 1.0L as a straight gasoline engine.

___We have got to get together for a clinic sometime :(

___About the Aptera, Twike, bike etc… DO you see 100,000 Aptera’s on the road t the next 10 years? That single rear wheel with an RE92is going to be a nightmare in any winter condition so it is not going to work for 5% of us year round. Worse in fact than the Insight. We will see Prius-III PHEV’s and BEV’s of all sorts sell in far greater numbers than the Aptera etc.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

No way I'm gonna get a diesel when I saw these prices at a gas station in Houston -

87 - $2.29
diesel - $3.49

___When we drive Insight’s to their max, we remove as many and in fact all aspects of its hybrid drivetrain because it is so lossy. If Sean, Louis, Randall, Billy and myself would have our perfect Insight, it would not have any HEV aspects other than the DC to DC converter. With the pack and subsequent bus gone, the MGSet supplies enough to the DC to DC to keep everything up and that is what we would all love to have. Going down the highway, the HEV aspect is also just a drag and only there to act as a turbo. Dump it and we will get another 1 to 2 more mpgs from the leanburn 1.0L as a straight gasoline engine.


You seem to be confusing HEV with the OEM limits of the HEV Insight...

1/2 or more of all the energy from the fuel ... no matter what automotive engine is used gets wasted as heat out the radiator and the exhaust .... a HEV system can make use of a waste heat recover system to put some of that wasted energy back to moving the car... this forces the HEV to have greater potential than the straight diesel ... of course PHEVs and EVs can also significantly benefit from this.

Add in linear generators for shock absorbers... and solar paint on the exterior... and you get more potential gains for the HEV that the straight diesel just doesn't and will never have.

It also doesn't matter that at the regenerative braking is a small % benefit to the HEV... no matter how small it is ... it is still a benefit the HEV has that the straight diesel does not.

I was attracted to the Insight for many reasons... the Cd.. the weight ... and the potential the HEV drive system has... even if Honda did not exploit the HEV drive system as much as I would like to.. and plan to eventually.


___We have got to get together for a clinic sometime :(


Would be nice... but all the driving techniques that you use to boost MPG... will still apply to a HEV that is recycling the waste energy from braking... from radiator... from exhaust... from suspension... from solar of the exterior... those techniques do minimize the effect / benefit from regenerative braking... but brakes are still a safety requirement to have on a vehicle... so getting something back from them is a benefit of the HEV.


___About the Aptera, Twike, bike etc… DO you see 100,000 Aptera’s on the road t the next 10 years? That single rear wheel with an RE92is going to be a nightmare in any winter condition so it is not going to work for 5% of us year round. Worse in fact than the Insight. We will see Prius-III PHEV’s and BEV’s of all sorts sell in far greater numbers than the Aptera etc.


While I agree we are likely to see only small numbers of the Aptera and the Twike compared to the Prius-II and the Volt ... etc.... and numbers matter to some small degree.... I don't personally care much about what the masses buy... if I did I would have bought a 4,000 lbs 15 MPG truck.... if buying what everyone else bought was the rule... we would all still riding horses... or walking.... give me progress over public opinion any day.

No way I'm gonna get a diesel when I saw these prices at a gas station in Houston -

87 - $2.29
diesel - $3.49

Using that logic, there is no way you can justify a hybrid (+$5k) or an EV (+ ~$12-15k) at that gas price, either.