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Dear CleanMPG forum members

I have to say that it was sad to be asked to move the MIMA discussion from it's birth place at IC.

Each forum has a tone that represents the people on the forum and the moderators that try to keep content within the bounds that they feel appropriate.
It is a fact of life on the Internet.

I was a bit reluctant to move MIMA discussions to CleanMPG, as I feel that Wayne and I have a quite different view of some of the more extreme techniques to achieve high MPG, but we do have the same goal, which is to raise the awareness of people to the choices that are available today. Hypermiling driving techniques and MPG improving hardware modifications both save oil, and reduce carbon, which the world needs to do right now.

I enjoyed the article about the MPG driving techniques of yesteryear, as my Dad had a Nash rambler station wagon that he would coast for 25 miles on the way back from work, and had MPG numbers in the high 30's, Hypermiling is not new.

The forum software at 99mpg.com while functional is not what we are used to, and I do not want to cause any additional work for John at Invisible Gold who has been so supportive.

So I would like to try the CleanMPG technical forum and see if we can continue our quest for the ultimate Hybrid gas electric mix.

For those that do not know what MIMA is, this may be a good place to start:
http://99mpg.com/faq/whatismima/
How to use it to improve MPG:
http://99mpg.com/faq/howdoiusemimatoimp/

The main difference between Wayne and my point of view is that I feel it is important that a Hybrid car can get great MPG while traveling with the flow of traffic, as that does not cause a lowering of the MPG of other people traveling the same road.
The average MPG of a section of road is what counts.
One slower car can negatively effect MPG on all the cars coming up from behind, and cause a net lowering of MPG. This is not a big issue if the road is a two lane HW and is not busy, but gets to be more and more a factor as the traffic increases, and the lanes fill up. Like so many things in life moderation and common sense work best.

I congratulate the hypermilers for their patience and skill, and in a perfect world, there should be a hypermiler lane where the speed limit is what works best for MPG.
We all could use to slow down a bit.:)

Welcome!

Im not a Insight owner,, almost but didnt make it. :(

Anyway, I had been keeping a eye on the developments over there. Very intresting to say the least.

IC is a strange place in strange times... LMAO.

So what would it take to cabbage one of these on to my 06 Civic EX? I know,, just a dream.

Glad your here!

psy

Mike,

Wayne, Tom, Krousdb, myself welcome and encourage you to resume the MIMA thread here.

You never should have been put in the position of having to restart it.

I think over time you will find vBulletin is even better than the forum software you were using.

The common goal you and Wayne have of seriously pursuing better fuel economy trumps whatever differences both of you have in acheiving that goal. I could share with you many stories of hybrid drivers that expect less fillups without changing bad driving habits....

Anyway, Wayne has the red carpet out for you....

Ahh, you're the guy with the fifth wheel! I was really impressed when I first read about that modification (and still am).

I only speak for myself, and I don't even own an Insight. (I often wish!) But it's my opinion that differing viewpoints are always a good thing, and it's hard to develop new ideas when a group adheres to a single track. Sometimes the middle ground turns out to be appealing, sometimes you end up with concepts that go in a completely new direction.

Let there be MIMA!

My question is, can the 5th wheel be removed easily and used as a spare in the event of a flat?

It would be kind of cool to be able to use your spare in this way and it would also give a reason for the added weight in the trunk of the spare tire. I suspect the other parts of the 5 wheel configuration don't weigh too much.

I would love to play with MIMA in my civic, but I'm pretty sure you haven't looked into MIMA on the HCH I. I'd love the 5th wheel because there area few spots where I could use EV from stop signs.

It's pretty clear to me that Benjamin and "insightful trekker"
have large sticks in painful places. It's a forum site, f'cryinoutloud,
and is entirely what people make it become. If you can't talk
about Insight mods or rant about politics. what's left??
.
_H*

If Mike's MIMA thread is not allowed here, I will personally hunt down the site owners and beat them like a junkyard dog!

:D

Thanks for the welcome words.
MIMA for the civic or any other hybrid could be achieved by Honda and Toyota revealing the commands that pass over the controll networks in the cars. Then MIMA like control would be a simple plug into the cars comm buss.
Will it happen? I suspect not without some kicking and screaming from the car makers.

I like Wayne, and respect his skill, patience and purpose.
I am just trying to raise the speed bar a bit, as I am not as skillful, or patient but share his purpose.:)
I will start an additional EV mode thread to discuss the 5th wheel.

Hi Mike:

___I had 3 different individuals write to me about our differences over the last 3 days and I am still wondering why all the hoopla?

___Either way, given what had happened over at IC over the last 3 + days (Insightful Trekker and I go way back ;)), I am extremely glad you are here! I remember the first time we met at the 2006 TDS and I was nervous for all of 10 seconds. Anyone that has had the pleasure to meet you in person knows there is not a more amicable person anywhere and since then, I have had the utmost respect for your talents where and when they can be applied. Namely, to our favorite hybrid, the Honda Insight. As you said above, we definitely have the same goals, just different means to get there …

___Good Luck and welcome to CleanMPG.

___Wayne

Hi Wayne
Thanks for the welcome.
Our shared goal of pushing up the average MPG for the country should easily move any differences in approach into the noise.
Glad to be here.
;)

Since meeting Wayne, I've used FAS a lot more.

Don't think anyone is going to recommend my extreme drafting to and from HybridFest however.

Speaking of drafting, I will eventually post a thread with videos of a simulated MIMA effect behind a big rig. Better go ahead and explain....

An 18-wheeler is going 70-75mph, and I'm withing ten feet (yes - that's close). The speed is going to vary. Acceleration in lean burn if it exists, is extremely poor. Only a short burst of extra speed is required to remain behind the big rig.

What I did was punch the accelerator and let the pedal spring back to where it was in less than a second. What seemed to happen is the Assist responded quicker than the ICE, looking at the instant MPG display. At times, I'd punch the accelerator for maybe .75 of a second, get maximum Assist for a moment, the instant mpg would go from 100mpg to 75 to 65mpg, then go back to about 100mpg. Needless to say, this is not easy and not a relaxation techinque.

Trying this several times, I did manage to increase my mpg while punching the accelerator under a second. I want to try this again on my Aug 18-21 trip to Colorado Springs to be more confident it works.

I want to stress it's both awkward and useful only in limited situations. It just would not be practical for more than climbing more than a slight incline and downright impractical for anything steeper.

I found it interesting getting a MIMA effect....

Chuck
Only difference is that with MIMA you could have stayed in lean burn and not mover the throttle, and with just a slight jog of the joystick and you would have cought back up to the truck with just a bit of electric.
What would be cool would be to tie one of those automotive radar adaptive cruise control systems into MIMA so it could maintainthe 1-2 car lengths automatically, an automatic "draft mode";)

Interesting Mike. That could be tempting.

Lets see, Batterys, DC VFD, and the fifth wheel and a joy stick. Hummmmmm

Mike, you are right - it would be much easier with MIMA.

I joked here about making it seem like I was in tow by a "tractor beam". :D

The problem with drafting so closely is not what some are thinking.....it' harder to see exit signs so don't do this if you are unsure of where you are going. Too humorous examples:

Thru Arkansas on I30, never got a chance to take a picture of a huge sign that read: "Hope, Arkansas - Home of Pres Bill Clinton"
As I was leaving Madison, Wisconsin Sunday - I was having so much fun getting 88mpg behind the 18-wheelers at 70mph....then realized 1.5 hour later that I should be in Chicago by now. :o :o :o You guessed it - I saw the I94 exit sign, and did not catch the direction! Oh well, I've never been to St Paul and I could have made it back to Dallas simply by taking I35 South there 1,000 miles south... :D.

Chuck
I almost did the same thing, but Hobbit was ahead of me and gave me a heads up as to the direction.
I have been neglecting my search for the plug in connectors, as I have to deal with my broken heating system and still have some loose ends in the Ewheel area.
I will get back on it next week. Lets hope that after all the searching and location of the correct connectors that they don't say, minimum order 1000 pieces.
Will advise!:)

I got a private mail yesterday from Paul
It got trashed by mistake before I got a chance to respond, If he sees this, please resend, Sorry

The Hartford Advocate has done a story about my car:
http://www.ctnow.com/custom/nmm/hartfordadvocate/
The Voyage Of The MIMA

The reporter took some liberties with the numbers, but captured the essence.

I wrote to the reporter with this letter, Are my estimates for normal Insight numbers in agreement with yours?


"Thanks for doing the article about my quest for the 100MPG hybrid car.
As with any article involving lots of technical information, it is easy to misunderstand some of the more subtle aspects of the system.

The article was great with the exception of a few points that could use a bit of clarification.
The modifications to the car are really three interdependent modifications.

The first Mod was the MIMA system which allows the use of the electric motor manually. That modification alone has been proven to improve mileage by 10-20% over the non modified car under most conditions.
The second modification was the inclusion of the extra batteries and the booster supply.This mod depends on MIMA, and allows more aggressive use of the electric assist with the resultant further increase in MPG that this electric brings.
The final mod was the electric only 5th wheel.

The stock insight at 60-70 MPH typically gets 65-75 MPG.
At 35-45MPH the car can get 65-85MPG depending on driving techniques.

The MIMA modified Insight at 60-75 MPH can get 75-85 MPG, and the MIMA modified Insight with booster system can get 90-110 MPG for the 30-45 minutes that the system can provide boost.
Lower speed driving in the 35-45 MPH range will yield 100-135 MPG while the boost is active.

The fully electric 5th wheel will achieve infinite MPG, since it does not require the gas engine to run.The MPG readout only goes to 150MPG.
I hope that this will clear up any inaccuracies in the article. "

I will be going to the MIT swap meet in Cambridge MA this Sunday weather permiting, and will be bringing my car. The parking for the swap meet is a big parking lot across the street.
Anyone in the Boston area that wants to do the swapmeet, and try the car, I will be there from 9AM to say 1PM.
Anyone wanting to try the Ewheel, come on down, I will be charged up, and wanting to try a downtown boston Ewheel run and do some parking lot laps.
http://web.mit.edu/w1mx/www/swapfest.shtml
$1 discount if you print the flyer.

Hi Mike:

___My two quips with the story are the 10 - 20% increase in FE over non-MIMA equipped Insight’s under most conditions. I would tone that down a touch as you would be talking about anyone that can reach the EPA highway of 66 in a standard 06 Insight 5-speed can now get 80 going the same speeds, same terrain, same driver and with MIMA installed.

___The second item. Driving at 30 - 40 mph in a well setup Insight yields 125 + mpg without MIMA. I traveled the Chicago Interstates with 45 - 50 mph minimums at 100 + mpg tanks all summer long. This was relatively easy to maintain including the traffic nightmares overcome on a daily basis. At a steady 32 - 38 mph around town, the Insight was worth south of 120 all day long if you did not have to slow and stop for lights or signs …

___When it comes to a PHEV/EV mode via the 5th wheel, now you are talking about a real advance imho. Although using a Pb-Acid solution is not my idea of perfection due to the limited 300 + cycles of DD cycles before severe degradation, the much lower cost of electrical propulsion via an outlet sure beats the hell out of the gasoline solution the rest of us are stuck with. When you get the multiple Prius II - NiMH packs installed and overriding their max 40% SoC range to maybe 65 – 75% up and running, I think the fifth wheel is going to become something very special indeed. The huge RAV4EV’s NiMH packs are in some cases pushing well beyond 150,000 miles with < 5% Cap degradation today and with the lightweight Insight as the test bed; you might just have the first practical PHEV with an extreme range via its built in hybridized – lean burn capable ICE once you get the HW/SW and controllers all sorted out …

___MIMA has its place to maintain lean burn at speed while climbing but you had better be ready for the tough questions as I don’t BS when it comes to FE …

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wayne,
Thanks for the feedback from one of the masters.
While You, Highwater, Rick Reese, Nemystic and many of the other guys can achieve the numbers you have quoted in a well set up Insight, I was trying to be more generic with my estimates. I have met so many Insight owners that while doing their best, have trouble getting the numbers I have quoted,let alone the ones you are .
I estimate the difference is mainly because of terrain, and the agressiveness that they must use to safely drive with the traffic flow on their particular commute.

A look at the Green Hybrid database puts the average MPG for an Insight at 63.5 MPG.
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/honda-insightmanual.html

My own driving experience no MIMA puts me at just about the 63.5 MPG point.
With MIMA , I was able to keep that at about 68-70MPG
MIMA with the boost batteries allows me to do over 100 on the exact same routes and speeds. Much of New England is much more hilly than the Chicago area, and of course there are areas with real mountains in other parts of the country. The trick is to compare apples to apples. No question that if we all slowed down a bit that all the numbers could be much better.
The Ewheel of course is like coasting with the power to keep going, and I can't help feeling that it is cheating when doing any MPG comparisons.
I tend to use it in a sort of electric pulse and glide mode, and can keep the average current drain to about the same 50-80 A range that the boost system uses.
Loading up with LI-Ions of the same weight, I could probably run for 2-3 hours on pure EV.
I am seriously looking at changing my 4:1 ratio to 2.8:1 which should let me run up to 40 MPH, but with the sacrifice of some low end torque. I will be able to switch back if it turns out to be too much of a torque loss.
The torque loss can be overcome with more current into the motor, but at a range loss because of the heavier drain. The other way to move the speed up, is to use a different controller with a 72V battery, which would give us maybe 45 MPH with the same 4:1 ratio.

Since my typical drive is to go to the grocery store, then the bank, then the postoffice, then the hardware or drugstore, all the while needing to stop at several lights and stop signs, The Ewheel really helps. I was lucky to get 60 MPG on a typical run without my modifications. I usually only use 20-40% of the boost battery charge on a typical trip, and I charge back up right after. The 500 cycles that many lead acid makers quote for life is for much deeper discharge, so I am hoping to excede the 500 cycles by a substantial amount. Time will tell.
I wish we would have had more time in Madison to allow you to tryout the MIMA system, and for me to observe your technique with a non MIMA Insight .
It would have been very interesting.
For now, I am enjoying the he** out of getting MPG numbers that I have yearned for since getting the car, and will continue to smooth out the user interface to make using the systems more natural.
I am even considering putting my MPG display video system back in the car, now that I have some nunbers to brag about.:) :cool: ;)

Hi Mike:

___Your reply makes very good sense.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

As a proponent of the FE benefits of the MIMA modification in non-level terrain, I've tried very hard to base my conclusions on actual data vs. speculation.

It would seem as though Mike has qualified his claims to MIMA benefits as "with a booster pack". To the best of my knowledge, he's the only MIMA user with that modification.

As the MIMA user with possibly the most miles (??) or perhaps some formula of miles and total time, I have made statements that the FE benefit of the MIMA modification in moderately hilly terrain (and all results with the Insight are highly terrain dependent) is in the order of +15%. This was with a relatively healthy battery pack.
With a perfectly healthy battery pack (such as Mike's) I believe up to +20% benefit from MIMA could be possible in central New England's terrain. However, with a battery pack that recals at 60% iSoC, such as mine, I can only realize a 10% FE benefit from MIMA with extreme effort.
Randall ("Highwater") who is about to set an FE record for the Insight in not-totally-flat terrain has a battery pack that apparently recals at approximately 80% iSoC, which makes his accomplishment seem that much more remarkable.

There is clear benefit to maintaining lean-burn in the Insight while climbing moderate hills with the MIMA modification. I have previously used the analogy of a "selective tailwind". However, for those with the "safe" FAS modification, there is likely a complicated decision when approaching a descent as to whether an FAS or forced regen will ultimately yield the better FE.

It's unfortunate that the Insight's FE performance can be adversely influenced by one abberant battery sub-pack (such as I and many others seem to have). However, that's the reality that must be considered in this "debate".

When discussing it once someone mentioned using mima to act as a cruise control to allow you to draft a little better and not have to use gas to keep the same distance from you to your draft target. I think that is a good idea.

It seems to me mima would work best when it is used sparingly because regen can be more of a payback then the energy you used benifited you. I notice this a lot in my civic. I can burn the battery to get great mileage, but when regen time comes its major payback.

Are there any MIMA owners out there that use it sparingly? I'd be interested to know how the car reacts under those conditions vs using it as a temporary booster back for getting up hills and stuff.

Are there any MIMA owners out there that use it sparingly? I'd be interested to know how the car reacts under those conditions vs using it as a temporary booster back for getting up hills and stuff.


I think everyone who gets it starts off with a bit of a lead finger so to speak ... and then over time learns that unless you have a PHEV Insight like Mike spareingly use of the Electric gets better on FE .... Losses all the way around with conversions to use Electric priority unless you can plug in the electric ... I usually drive most of the time as a normal Insight and then from time to time I will use MIMA for 1 or 2 bars or 20 to 40 Amps of assist, or to turn off the forced chage going up a moderate hill, stuff like that .... but my experiments with using it to push the car around in a MIMA-EV mode even with pumping losses of the ICE... I like the effect and it shows the kind of power you have there and the potential of the PHEV Insight.