Archives

Honda has released a smattering of new details on it's all-new Insight. The car will be the cheapest hybrid vehicle available when it goes on sale in the spring of 2009, but it won't be the most efficient.

I was truly hoping that the new Insight would take after its father. And while, obviously, it couldn't have hit the ridiculous numbers (beyond 70 mpg) of the original, tiny, two-seater Insight, I was at least hoping it would beat the Prius. But alas, the Insight will come in right around Honda's current hybrid offering, the hybrid Civic, about 42 mpg.

So what makes this car so great then, if it has the same mileage as a hybrid Civic and worse than the Prius?

Well, a few things, actually.

It's cheaper than either the Prius ($22k) or the Civic Hybrid ($23.5k). So despite being less efficient, it might be more green just because more people will buy them. Honda is banking on selling 200,000 of them per year ... a lofty goal.

It's a dedicated hybrid, the only one besides the Prius (and the old Insight, if you want to count it.) Which isn't important at all for the environment, but it's important for people's desire to want to buy them. It's like having the whole car be a bumper sticker that says "I'm on the cutting edge of green technology!"

It's pretty. Again, not important for the environment, but important when you're trying to sell 200,000 of them a year.
Going from 40 to 50 mpg doesn't actually save all that much gas. Don't believe me, see our article on why MPG is a stupid measurement.

So yes, we want one. We'd actually rather have a Volt, or some other car that doesn't burn any gas at all under normal circumstances. But I predict broad consumer appeal for the Insight



Ecogeek (http://green.yahoo.com/blog/ecogeek/776/honda-insight-s-disappointing-mileage.html)

True, true.

Hi ALS:

___I think Hank was simply stirring the netizens reading his blog for a response because he let alone any of the rest of us mere minions do not know what Honda will be allowing wrt the Insight-II’s FE. It will not match the original Insight given the weight, size, amenities and standard construction (HS steels w/ little aluminum other than the ICE including the HCH-II’s 1.3L …) but I suspect it will do better than the HCH-II given the loss of maybe 150 + pounds of weight, sleeker Cd and smaller Frontal area. I also doubt he has much experience pulling big numbers from an Insight or anything else he has owned in the recent past leaving me to believe he was simply stirring the pot?

___The only way we are going to see Insight like FE again is a BEV/PHEV or a move away from the gasoline ICE while placing a small CI-ICE (or something else altogether?) in a vastly lighter weight 4-door sedan or 5-door hatch. The closest thing we have seen to Insight like FE from a 4 or 5-door sedan is the European Civic with the 2.2L iCDTi. If that CI-ICE was downsized to a 1.5L and instead of being placed in an almost 3,000 pound Civic, placed inside the Insight-II or Fit, than you would have Insight like FE from a 5-door.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

The new insight is not a car merely for people looking to get insane FE anymore. The new insight is for your average Joe. A mid-sized sedan under $20,000 that can get over 40 mpg with normal driving is an extremely good deal. I expect Honda to sell a ton of these things as it costs $4000 less than Prius and gets close to its fuel economy.

We also need to remember that the 40 expected mpg is on the new EPA. The 61/70 rating of the Insight was on the old EPA. A 40mpg rating on the new EPA translates to about 50mpg on the old EPA.

It's like buying a Civic hybrid for $5000 less.

I also doubt he has much experience pulling big numbers from an Insight or anything else he has owned in the recent past leaving me to believe he was simply stirring the pot?
___Wayne

I agree

-----------------------

The Insight-I was designed around what 90% of the masses actually need 90% of the time... the Insight-II is designed around what the masses think they need... so yes it is designed to be higher volume... quantity over quality is the choice being made with the Insight-II.

I would have been much happier as well if the Insight-II had stayed in the same path as its predecessor... to keep the Insight as the peek or top of the high MPG food chain... even if lower numbers are sold...

There is so much I would have liked to have seen in a current technology / more advanced version of the original design idea... the closed valves enhanced EV-Mode improvement to the Engine on the HHC-II.... lighter weight modern lithium batteries could have put more than 5 times the energy in the same weight as the NiMH of the Gen-I... Carbon fiber to replace the aluminum to further reduce weight... PV shell using the less expensive print method that allows it to be put on any shape.... Plug in charging option of the increased capacity battery... drop the battery and electronics to the space under the car to give that interior space back to the driver as a second row of seats, making it a small 4 seater.... put in a version of the bose electronic suspension system... so you could as a driver decide if you want the more comfy padded suspension, sporty suspension , or a regenerative energy recycling suspension, all with a push of a button .... add thermo-electric radiator system to recycle some of the waste heat energy of the already very efficient ICE... etc...etc...

but they didn't... so now I am left to make some of these improvements to my Insight-I ... at the snail's pace that a single individual hobbiest can do in his spare time and money.

sooo many projects... so many plans .... :D

At least if I take good care of it my Insight-I might actually last me long enough to get around to all of these things .... even if it will be many years yet to go one by one.

It's a dedicated hybrid, the only one besides the Prius (and the old Insight, if you want to count it.) Which isn't important at all for the environment, but it's important for people's desire to want to buy them. It's like having the whole car be a bumper sticker that says "I'm on the cutting edge of green technology!"

Aren't the Ford/Mercury hybrids full hybrids, also?

Call the thing a "Honda Prius" and be done with it. They designed it years ago to cover the Prius and now the market has changed. Glad to have it.

Aren't the Ford/Mercury hybrids full hybrids, also?Yes.

Ford and Volvo independently developed a system very similar to Toyota's HSD....Ford and Toyota made an agreement not to sue over this.

This Nissan Altima uses Toyota's HSD system by licence.

It's cheaper than either the Prius ($22k) or the Civic Hybrid ($23.5k).

In Canada the Prius is more than the Civic Hybrid, even though Toyota just dropped the price by over $2000!

Honda Civic Hybrid 26,350
Toyota Prius 27,400

The New Honda Hybrid will probably still be too expensive to consider here versus a Yaris (13,210), Fit (14,980) or the like.

The Insight-I was designed around what 90% of the masses actually need 90% of the time... the Insight-II is designed around what the masses think they need... so yes it is designed to be higher volume... quantity over quality is the choice being made with the Insight-II.

I would have been much happier as well if the Insight-II had stayed in the same path as its predecessor... to keep the Insight as the peek or top of the high MPG food chain... even if lower numbers are sold...

if people followed that business model, minority over majority, I'm sure they would be thinking in the end (why even go into business at all?)

I'm for the one glad the hybrid powertrain is cheaper for the masses, convince some of those people to drop those nasty old ass cars.

Voodoo is right on the money though when it comes to the Canadian buying market.

They would sell many Insight 1s if they were still on the market - it outsmarts the Smart. Shows you how flatfooted the manufacturers are, even the perfect HMC.

But, it isn't for 'most'. It may suit 90% of the need, but it's the other 10% that gets you.

Let's not get hung up on the car's name. They shouldn't have recycled the "Insight" name but they did. It's nothing like the original Insight and intended for a completely different (and much bigger) market segment. If you want a replacement for the old Insight, get over the name and wait for the CR-Z, which is also coming soon.

So what's so great about the new Insight? The biggest one is that it's thousands of dollars less than a Prius or HCH. Those cars competed in the midsize-sedan price range against cars like the Accord and Camry. The Insight II will compete in the compact class, against cars like the Jetta, non-hybrid Civic, Corolla, Mazda3 and Toyota Matrix. There are an awful lot of people in the world -- myself included -- who would never even consider slapping down $23k+ for a car, but might be talked into spending upper teens. The potential market for this car is WAY bigger than the Prius or HCH.

Next advantage: way more practical than the HCH. Not only is the HCH a utility-challenged sedan, it's even worse than the average sedan because of its tiny trunk and seats that don't fold down. Even though the new Insight will be smaller than the Prius (which actually is a midsize car) it should have similar utility. Who knows -- given Honda's ability to rethink interior packaging as in the Fit, it may even prove more utilitarian than the Prius.

And while I know Honda's only promised us HCH-level FE for this car, I don't see how it won't be at least a little bit better. It's lighter and more aero! Maybe it will only end up a couple mpg better than the HCH, but that puts it into Prius territory in town, and should beat the Prius on the highway.

The Insight-I was designed around what 90% of the masses actually need 90% of the time... the Insight-II is designed around what the masses think they need... so yes it is designed to be higher volume... quantity over quality is the choice being made with the Insight-II.

I would have been much happier as well if the Insight-II had stayed in the same path as its predecessor... to keep the Insight as the peek or top of the high MPG food chain... even if lower numbers are sold...



I totally agree, if Honda wants to be known as the world's most effecient motor company it really needs to shove the Insight right back up in the mpg department where it belongs.

Also is it really true that Insight II could beat the Prius on the highway? If so, how??

Also is it really true that Insight II could beat the Prius on the highway? If so, how??


Just depends on whose driving which car.

On the Highway... the the factors that dominate are Weight and Aerodynamics... Aerodynamics looks close, I have not read any official Cd numbers on the Insight-II yet... if the Insight-II is even 1% lighter than the Prius, it will have 1% less rolling resistance.

Also if the Insight-II includes the Highway Lean Burn function of the Insight-I ... that will be a major bonus for it vs the Prius on the highway... although it would take a hit in Emissions if it uses the lean burn function to boost MPG.

Now in the city & stop and go driving variables are different and the synergy drive system has more of a direct benefit, and the lean burn function ( even if it is there ) can't be effectively used.

Ahh. So the ultimate solution is to buy a Prius III and use as a town and city driving buddy, and leave the Insight II as your gas sipping pal on the long highways.

And of course, let's assume an expert hypermiler is operating the hybrid in our hypothetical situations.

Well, hold on, with lean burn technology on the Insight I, how much better can it do against the Prius II/III on the highway?

Pierce, if you are asking what the original insight is worth on the highway, 100+mpg at 50mph in decent temps is not unreasonable with some effort. Keep in mind that the AC equipped version of that car is only 1880lbs -- the Insight II will be somewhat heavier so even if it also has lean burn I don't expect it to come close to that. Laurie's HCH-I 5MT with lean burn is worth about 68mpg or so at that speed under similar conditions and comparable weight.

I totally agree, if Honda wants to be known as the world's most efficient motor company it really needs to shove the Insight right back up in the mpg department where it belongs.

Also is it really true that Insight II could beat the Prius on the highway? If so, how??

Well all you should have to do is slow down below the 70-80 mph that average Prius owner is doing on the interstate. :rolleyes:

I get passed all the time by the Hybrid HCH and Priuses.

Ahh. So the ultimate solution is to buy a Prius III and use as a town and city driving buddy, and leave the Insight II as your gas sipping pal on the long highways.

And of course, let's assume an expert hypermiler is operating the hybrid in our hypothetical situations.

Well, hold on, with lean burn technology on the Insight I, how much better can it do against the Prius II/III on the highway?

I'd say the ultimate solution is not to have a car at all... If you can locate your home and or your work close enough to each other for a bicycle ... no car will compete.

If you are going to have two cars... use a pure EV for your commute trips and such that are under 50 Miles round trip... and use the second car for longer road trips...

I also agree... the Insight-II is not likely to do as well as the Insight-I for many reasons... but it will target a wide / larger population.

As for your question about the Lean Burn on the Insight-I... It isn't really fair ... for any other vehicle that is... If you take the Insight-I out on a highway road trip for a full tank of gas... it will beat any other car... The Prius- I, II , or III ... Even the Volt starting out with a full battery pack will end up with lower MPG by the end of the 1 full tank of gas road trip than a Insight-I would.... The only vehicle I know of that would have a chance would be the Aptera... and even that would not be guaranteed to beat a Insight-I on a full tank of gas road trip.... these other cars can beat the Insight-I in town with stop and go... or when they can stop for 4 to 6 hours to recharge every 1 hour of driving.... in a straight road trip... the veteran Insight-I is still King.

http://www.jonrb.com/emoticons/driving.gif

Good heavens!! The Insight I really is the best fuel economy car ever!!

Ian, you are right about the whole bike idea as well, that truely is the best thing to do.

However, let's modify this situation. What 2 new cars would be best in the town and city, and best only on the highway?

Hi Pierce:

___If you were throwing the stops out, the European and unavailable here Civic iCDTi would be best for both. I am sure the European based 1.6L TDCi equipped Focus and Fiesta would do even better along with a number of other European Diesels we have not got our hands on. Even the new Jetta TDI does not have the capability of the iCDTi as it lacks that super lean burn/SAHM like extreme mileage capability that Honda’s 2.2L iCDTi includes.

___Unfortunately, those are not and will not be made available in the US any time soon. At least until the i-DTEC arrives in the TSX. If Honda has left the 2.2L i-DTEC’s FE capability alone while achieving Tier II/Bin5, it will be the best highway cruiser of any soon to be available automobiles. In the city, the TSX is going to be a handful because of its weight. It is the size of a civic and weighs as much as an Accord so you can expect an FE hit to be harsh at any time you have to accelerate the weighty beast.

___Which brings us back to what is available today. The Prius-II can best anything other than an Insight-I around town. The HCH-II’s SAHM can best a Prius-II’s SHM out on the highway “if” you can avoid slow downs and re-accelerations.

___Tomorrow, the Volt will take on all-comers within its range but at a price we will not be able to afford. Nobody has any idea about the 1.8L powered Prius-IIIa (NiMH equipped) or -IIIb (PHEV-10 Li-Ion equipped). Given the price of the Insight-II, that one is going to be tough to beat! If Honda charges $20K, they are in effect charging $5,500 for IMA to be added to the Fit. If they charge $18K, $3,500 will not be bad premium, Honda still makes a ton of $’s and if Honda allows the HCH-II’s ICE untouched to reside in it, it will receive better FE than the HCH-II. I also think the HCH-II is dead once the Insight-II comes out unless they price it (the Insight-II) stupidly.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I'm not so sure the HCH will be dead, but it will definitely be interesting to see how this plays out.

I'm wondering how much better it will sell once they migrate the lighter IMA to the platform so that you'll finally be able to fold down that rear seat.

Good heavens!! The Insight I really is the best fuel economy car ever!!

Ian, you are right about the whole bike idea as well, that truely is the best thing to do.

However, let's modify this situation. What 2 new cars would be best in the town and city, and best only on the highway?

2 new cars...

In town and city...
#1> the Twike, hands down
#2> Aptera or other EV capable of the daily range you need.
#3> All other PHEVs ( Volt , Prius-III, and such )

Highway ...
If You are on Highway for a full Tank of gas road trip:
#1> Insight-I or maybe the upcoming Aptera.
#2> Other PHEVs ( Volt , Prius-III , and such )
#3> Some of the other small .... high MPG vehicles.

If you are on the highway for less than 1 hour out of every 6 hours:
#1> Aptera.
#2> Volt.
#3> Prius-III

If your Highway will allow the slower speeds of the ~50 Mph Twike:
#1> The Twike will beat even the Aptera for less than ~90 Miles of daily trips.

The orginal Insight's aluminum 'core' was an incredible design unequalled to this day. A large part of the vehicle's performance was a direct result of the weight savings of that structure. Too bad they could not manufacture/sell at a profit, but them's the breaks.

Meanwhile each and every one of those cores ought to be treasured and preserved, wherever they are. Represent a great starting point for many interesting propulsion systems.

New Insight looks to be aimed about at the original Prius market, while Toyota is upsizing. I think Honda will do fine with this car, but it's no Insight.

DAS

Darn! I don't see the Insight II on any of your lists, Ian. Is it safe to say it's a lousy hybrid that hypermilers will ignore?

I'm really upset about this as, I really wanted to buy an Insight II and feel like I'm merely driving a larger Insight I with extra seats. Now I'll if I buy one, I'll feel like a guy driving a small Prius with bad FE.

Darn it Honda!!

One other thing; Which envirnment would the Insight II most likely be best suited for: the highway, or the town and city?

Don't write it off just yet, Pierce. Just because it won't be able to keep up with the original doesn't mean it won't be capable of some spectacular mileage in the right hands. We don't even have an example to play with yet. Heck, the official mileage rating hasn't even been published yet!


Hang in there and stay positive, okay?

As for best environment, like other IMA equipped vehicles it will likely be best out on the highway. I get the numbers I do in town because I've got an IMA "kill switch" (so it won't use the battery when I don't want it to) and the MT works the same as any other so I'm constantly FASing and bring the car back online with bump starts. CVTs don't have quite the same flexibility, but are FASable.

I think it is quite reasonable to expect that Honda has engineered another winner with a grab bag of goodies just waiting to be discovered. SAHM in the HCH-II was just discovered mere months ago -- and it has been on the market since '06!

Pierce,

If I were shopping for a new car, I'd get a Prius if I needed more than two seats.

If a two seater would do, the only thing over an original Insight I'd consider would be an Aptera (if I could get my hands on one).

Darn! I don't see the Insight II on any of your lists, Ian. Is it safe to say it's a lousy hybrid that hypermilers will ignore?

I'm really upset about this as, I really wanted to buy an Insight II and feel like I'm merely driving a larger Insight I with extra seats. Now I'll if I buy one, I'll feel like a guy driving a small Prius with bad FE.

Darn it Honda!!

One other thing; Which envirnment would the Insight II most likely be best suited for: the highway, or the town and city?

I would put the Insight-II in the Highway category under option #3.... as long as you do lots of road trips... because if you only drive for about 1 hour out of every 6 hours than PHEVs like Aptera, Volt, Prius-III, and some of the longer ranged EVs will all beat the Insight-II.

The Insight-II doesn't look like a bad car... it just also doesn't look like a great car... or a cutting edge of technology car... etc...etc... It so far looks very tame and mild.

In comparison from what I have seen so far ... if they were both offered for the same money... I would generally rather have a 2000 model year ( 8+ year old ) Insight-I over the 2009 model year Insight-II.... but that is just me... 90% of my driving is just me 1 person... less than 1 out of every 100 times I ever drive anywhere would any thing bigger than the 2 seater Insight-I have any use at all for me... so the additional seats and size... to me are a bad thing... as it means more weight and thus lower MPG... for a feature I would almost never use.... but some people do regularly need more than the 2 seats... but from what I see on the highway ... I think maybe 1% of the people who say they need it actually use the feature more than once a year.

Sigh,

-I'll try to stay postive. Thanks Wayne, Ian, Delta Flyer, and Sean, for all your thoughts and considerations concerning this most dynamicly emerging hybrid/EV market.

However, I was considering an Insight II initially becuase I was afraid that buying an Insight I was would be far too expensive (most folks have on-line ads asking for at least $18,000, OR have newer 2006 models asking for MORE than MSRP, around, $22,000!)

I was also worried about after paying a huge amount for an Insight I, I'd have to then put up with a lot of expensive non-warranty covered hybrid related reapirs.

However, after hearing only a little bit about minor troubles, and still seeing a lot of older CRX-HF's around and such, I have come to realise that I have nothing to fear with buying an older Insight, except for price.

For now, I have to put up my rebellious mere 4-speed automatic FSP, Accord (Believe me -I'm throwing everything I've got at it, I'm even pushing it now!). And like all you have stated, I rarely use the other three seats. Well maybe, 0.01 percent of the time.

I just hope those non-gas european cars, come over soon, and the Insight II keeps those specifications Wayne was talking about, and the rest of us was hoping for.

Do the rear seats fold in the Insight II? Why yes they do. Bye bye, Silver Speedster II. it's been fun but I need more cargo room :D

But I do like the Aptera and Volt so maybe my HCH2 will hang around a bit longer ;)

I just started looking at the insight, and have to say that Im really bummed with it.

At the end of the day, saving fuel is only practical in terms of what it does for my pocketbook. I had hopes for a high-MPG insight, which would make my commuting costs go effectively to only the cost of insurance and depreciation.

With a look copied from a prius, and relatively mediocre fuel economy, I dont necessarily see the benefit. Its about as silly as a V6 hybrid accord.

Ill take a diesel VW and not have to worry about the environmental effects of recycling batteries... or Ill just buy a prius, which is a very good size inside.

bummer...

Careful about selling it short before it is even available for test! There is a lot to be said for the new form factor and the integrated "eco guide" should be quite useful. If the car does indeed come in at $18.5K it will be as affordable as most compact cars with substantially better fuel economy.

As for batteries, they are completely recycled by both Honda and Toyota.

Just wait for it to make an appearance -- it may well exceed your expectations, though it won't match the original Insight in fuel economy. I know I'm looking forward to the debut with intense interest!

Agreed, WE DON'T KNOW YET WHAT THE FUEL ECONOMY WILL BE.

Also, the environmental effect of the batteries is mostly a red herring, mythbusted repeatedly on these forums. You think a diesel is better environmentally? Even I'm skeptical of that, and I own a TDI myself. (Real answer: both are much preferable to conventional gas cars, but neither is perfect. I'd have one of each if my budget permitted)

I hope that it was designed to exceed the original Insight's capabilities(on the new rating) and that similar to the HCH is a bluff. I know its a long shot but one can hope.

With a look copied from a prius...

It copied the Prius' looks just as much as the Prius-2G copied the Insight-I's look. There are only so many ways to make a teardrop out of metal. ;-) ;)

Don't forget the CR-X

I rather have a Honda Fit Hybrid. Easier to park in those smaller spots in San Francisco. For that type of parking an "assless" car comes in handy.

Ford and Volvo independently developed a system very similar to Toyota's HSD....Ford and Toyota made an agreement not to sue over this.

Maybe this got lost in everything else, but it struck me as one of the "greenest" agreements I have ever heard of. If these two companies had gone to court over this, those cars may have been delayed for a decade while the courts finished with this.

Either that or the cars would have been sold and the winner of the court battle would have gotten so much money the other company would have folded. Not a good thought for us since these are two companies (Ford and Toyota) that seem to be at the front of the pack right now with a decent chance of being around.

Agreed, WE DON'T KNOW YET WHAT THE FUEL ECONOMY WILL BE.

Also, the environmental effect of the batteries is mostly a red herring, mythbusted repeatedly on these forums. You think a diesel is better environmentally? Even I'm skeptical of that, and I own a TDI myself. (Real answer: both are much preferable to conventional gas cars, but neither is perfect. I'd have one of each if my budget permitted)

What's wrong with conventional gas cars? When designed right, they can get excellent mileage in anything outside of a stop and crawl urban traffic jam, where the EV mode hybrids excel. Unfortunately nobody currently sells a conventional gas car that's designed properly for high mileage, so if you went one, you have to build your own like I did.

What's wrong with conventional gas cars? When designed right, they can get excellent mileage in anything outside of a stop and crawl urban traffic jam, where the EV mode hybrids excel. Unfortunately nobody currently sells a conventional gas car that's designed properly for high mileage, so if you went one, you have to build your own like I did.

Or move to Japan and use mass transit;)