Archives

Tight credit and costly gas are driving sales down for the big-bike maker. Hogs now share space with scooters. (http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-fi-harley23-2008sep23,0,1968533.story)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/Harley_Glide.jpgSusan Carpenter – LA Times – Sept. 23, 2008

Harley Davidson Road King

The real American icon is having trouble but appears to be making adjustments before disaster strikes. -- Ed.

Owning a chromed or custom Harley-Davidson is "not about transportation, it's about an experience," says the company's chief executive, James L. Ziemer.

That's clear to even the most average of non-motorcycling Joes, who, on any given day, are likely to see T-shirts, leathers, window decals, cigarette lighters, bandannas and other paraphernalia emblazoned with the company's trademark bar and shield.

But there's one Harley-Davidson Motor Co. item that hasn't been selling as well in the U.S. recently: the motorcycle itself.

Sales of the heavyweight bikes were down 10.2% in the first six months of this year, and the Milwaukee company is cutting back production as much as 40% to whittle its inventory.

"For 15 years, Harley-Davidson couldn't make enough motorcycles for middle-class guys," said leisure industry analyst Robert J. Simonson of William Blair & Co. "They couldn't make enough of what was making them a lot of money, so they didn't design product or market to other groups. Now they need to." … http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-fi-harley23-2008sep23,0,1968533.story

Glad to see they are adjusting to the market changes. I still am looking for a 500cc bike with excellent weather protection, mileage, aerodynamics and enclosed storage, but I'm just a market of one.

Would you believe this is a Harley? (The 1963 Topper)

http://www.bnaiorpueblo.com/topper

The big Harleys don't appeal so much to younger people. All the old baby boomers who seriously want one probably already have one. Once they start going into nursing homes and dying off, there will be a glut of these on the market. I fear the same will happen with the retro Camaro & Challenger.

The drop in sales for the Harleys probably has less to do with their weight and FE, but more to do with the fact that they're expensive, and a very discretionary puchase in todays economy.

Would you believe this is a Harley? (The 1963 Topper)

http://www.bnaiorpueblo.com/topper

Ride to live, live to ride?

The big Harleys don't appeal so much to younger people.I have at least a dozen 22-28 year old friends that either have a harley or have severe harley envy:flag:

Hey, Harley already builds a 500 cc bike that gets excellent MPG. The Blast gets 60-65 mpg in normal city riding driven normally with no particular effort to get good mpg.

Weather protection- hmmmm- you can put a windscreen on it maybe even a big front fairing to protect you legs from rain/cold.

Harley really doesn't push the Blast, but maybe now- if they still even build it- they will push it as a mpg bike. It is a much better city MC than scooters with those tiny 13-15" wheels. I like scooters-except for the little wheels that just aren't good on crummy potholed, debris littered streets.

If I/you had/have a spare $2500 I could buy a very low mile-2000-4000 miles- Blast.

Charlie
PS Harley needs to improve the mpg on its big twins. Then they could push them as reasonable alternatives to city cars. Granted, a 40 mpg $15000 FIT makes a lot more sense than a $15000 40 mpg Harley. A motorcycle or a car is usually about more than utility. If it wasn't , no Harleys and very few MCs would ever sell . Only the 200-500 cc bikes really make "sense" in a utilitarian sense. With FI the small bikes could easily be 100 mpg vehicles.

Adding to the demise of Harley sales is the current credit crisis. Cycles and cars should never be financed for 84 months.It takes nearly the life of the loan to keep from being upside down.

High gasoline prices tends to take the wind out of the sails of all motoring activities, including larger motorcycles. People just don't feel like traveling as much. RV sales have tanked badly, much more so that Harley sales.

Pssst: for the same money or less, you can ride off on a BMW motorcycle, with lighter weight, more power, world-class anti-lock brakes, better handling and increased lean angles, and more durability.

The big Harleys don't appeal so much to younger people.Harleys were smaller.

Note the irony of this Harley's name. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_Hummer) :D

I know this is going to rub a lot of people the wrong way, but I've been awakened by those ridiculous noisy things enough times in the middle of the night to have ZERO sympathy for the company's fortunes. If they were built with some sense of responsibility to others I might feel differently, but the fewer hawgs on the road the better as far as I'm concerned.

If they were built with some sense of responsibility to others I might feel differently, but the fewer hawgs on the road the better as far as I'm concerned.

I have no interest in Harleys, but for what it's worth, they come from the factory nice and quiet. It's the owners who take the mufflers off new bikes and install "straight pipes" to make the bikes louder. I've been awakened at 3:00 a.m. on warm summer nights, and share your opinion of loud motorcycles.

Harry

While they do sound good with loud pipes, loud pipes do not save lives, they just piss people off or at least irritate them. Motorcycle Consumer News (non-advertising, content-only MC publication) has published several articles over the years stating studies show loud pipes do not reduce accidents/fatalities.

Harleys have become so mainstream, the only thing left to give them an "outlaw" image are straight pipes. They do have the cool factor pretty well nailed in the styling department though. Appeals to both my 78 year old Dad, my 5 year old son, and me.

If HD dealers want to sell scooters too they should consider the Vespa brand, not junky asian scooters. That's like selling a Hyundai at a Ferrari dealer. Vespa has a long reputation of quality and style in the scooter world much as HD does in the motorcycle world.

I consider them to be the best of both worlds, practical and lots of fun. Mine has a 250cc fuel injected 4-stroke so it runs clean, gets 70mpg and can beat any car off the line. I can get it up to 85mph if I need to get on the highway. The advantages over motorcycles are; it has a good amount of storage (glovebox, under saddle, carry hook, and storage rack on the back). Also it is more nimble for manuvering in urban environments.

I've never seen any other company with such brand loyal customers. Both my parents ride harleys every weekend and I have 2 sets of aunts and uncles that do the same. The people that buy these motorcycles aren't interested in FE. The market right now for HD may slow down but I don't think its over by any means.

Why would they build a 500cc under the Harley name. The one spoke of early is a Buell (made by harley) and is a sport bike not a cruiser. Every imported motorcycle company offers a 500cc or smaller bike. The market is already saturated with smaller bikes at a cheaper price. What would harley gain from this?

Aether glider-they ,Harley , might gain some new riders. It has commonly been pointed out that Harley riders are OLD- baby Boom old (50 or so).

A Blast isn't a sport bike , it is a standard with low seat height, and UPRIGHT RIDING POSITION .There isn't any 500 cc Japanese bike with a low seat height(27" or less) and an upright seating position. The Honda 250 Rebel is the closest to it, but it is a 250 of course. I emphasize the low seat height and the upright riding position for a reason!

Why are folks buying scooters? Duh, the low seat height makes them easy for beginners to handle ,and the upright riding position makes them more comfortable.The Blast is a scooter with bigger wheels,and more performance.

This is why Harley should push the Blast, and forget about Vespas(which I like). Scooters are great, but they need at least 16" wheels with wheel/tires that are 21" or more in diameter to handle potholes, debris, etc. They are actually dangerous on our crummy streets.

They- Harley - could lenghten the wheel base a bit and lower the seat even more- make it a big ,safe scooter.

Charlie
PS Harley has sold an Italian brand before-the Aeromacchi (sic) sold with a Harley label - in the 60's,I think.The Vespa idea isn't bad, but I think the Blast-scooterized- could be better.

Just running a few rough numbers for the sake of comparison.

Assuming you had no vehicle whatsoever, and that you lived in an environment that promoted riding a 2 wheeled vehicle year round, then lets assume you bought the following vehicles and planned to keep it 6 years. Remember, these are rough numbers, I know for a fact maintenance on the bikes will be more than the car, but for simplicity sakes we'll go off the big three: Price, Gas, Insurance.

Harley:14k$
Honda Reflex: 5.5k$
Used Accord: 3k$

Total cost of ownership:

Harley
Initial buy in: 14,000
12,000 miles per year at 45mpg is 266.66 gallons * 3.3:~880$
Insurance per year: 700$ (Roughly what I pay per year for my Triumph)

So the above for 6 years
Purchase: 14,000$
880 * 6: 5280$
700 * 6: 4200$
___________________________________________________
23,480 for 6 years

Honda Reflex
Initial buy in: 5,500
12,000 miles per year at 60mpg is 200 gallons * 3.3:660$
Insurance per year: 350$ (For arguments sake, I believe scooters are cheaper)

So the above for 6 years
Purchase: 5,500$
660 * 6: 3960$
700 * 6: 2100$
___________________________________________________
11,560 for 6 years

Used Accord
Initial buy in: 3,000 (They seem to go for this around here, early to mid 90's models)
12,000 miles per year at 25mpg is 480 gallons * 3.3:1584$
Insurance per year: 400$ (Close to my Del Sol insurance, which maybe too high)

So the above for 6 years
Purchase: 3,000$
1584 * 6: 9504$
400 * 6: 2400$
___________________________________________________
14,904 for 6 years

Now where things get hairy as far as making cost comparison is this. If you currently own a vehicle that gets 25mpg then:

Initial purchase price of the Harley: 14,000$
Initial purchase price of Honda Scooter: 5,500$

A Harley at 14,000 / 3.3 per is worth 4242 gallons of gas.
A Honda at 5,500 / 3.3 per is worth 1666 gallons of gas.

12,000 miles per in a 25mpg car is ~480 gallons per year
1 Harley at 4242gallons / 480gallons per year = ~ 8.8375 years worth of gas
1 Honda at 1666 gallons / 480 gallons per year = ~3.47 years worth of gas

So, it would appear, if you are buying your only vehicle, then a scooter would be more cost economical than buying a used fuel inneficient vehicle by 3344$. But then motorcycles/scooters are considered luxury items in many jurisdictions and property and sales taxes would probably be higher than on the used vehicle. That's up to your area.

However, if you are comparing the cost return of a motorcycle/scooter compared to a current vehicle you own that gets at least 25mpg, then it seems a very bad idea. You'd have to ride the bike every day, never touching the car. You'd be paying insurance, property taxes, insurance and upkeep on two vehicles at this point. In addition to that, I know for a fact that maintenance costs on my Triumph are quiet a bit more expensive than on my car. Tires are 2 to 3 times more each and they wear out in 10k miles. Chains wear out in 20k miles. I use synthetic oil because of the high RPM's. You have specialized safety equipment that wears out quickly (helmets and leathers) I forgot to add in the fact that my Triumph requires premium fuel...

Anyway, now that I've hit you with a wall of text I still have to say I love my Triumph, but buying a motorcycle to supplement a family car doesn't seem like a very slick idea.

:D

Happilyunstable- "buying a motorcycle to save gas/money" is what potential buyers tell their wives/significant others. They -none of the parties- actually believes it, but...

I've implied as much to my wife for years-even when I owned as many as 5 MCs at a time-. I'm about 100% sure my wife didn't believe me.

Now if we bought tiny, cheap bikes - like the ones used in Asia($1500 maybe new for those 50cc 2 strokes)- yeah, we would save money.We don't of course.

I had a Puch Moped during the 1979-1982 gas crunch- it got an honest 100 mpg and it actually saved me $$. Cost $500 new in 1979-about $1200 in today's $$.Street legal, but you didn't need insurance or brake tag!

Charlie