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On the highway, driving slowly is simple enough: stay in the right lane and let everyone else pass. But on the back roads I'm finding that the blessing of lower speeds and more opportunities to apply the technique is somewhat offset by people jamming up behind me. When I'm all alone I stick to the speed limit +/- 5mph while I FAS and DWL my way across the landscape. But, inevitably, the next guy back is doing the speed limit +5-10mph and ends up behind me, limiting my willingness to do things that involve significant changes of speed without an "excuse" like a stop sign or a light. Except for one guy who passes on the double yellow 3 mornings a week, they are patient so I feel inclined to compromise.

How do you guys handle this? I can think of some options but it's tough knowing which are worth trying. One would be to find a place to pull over and let everyone go by, allowing me to go back to the way I really want to drive. But I think the cycle would just repeat itself. The other would be to maintain a higher average speed right off the bat, effectively P&Ging around a higher target speed to keep the pack from approaching. But, speed limits aside, it seems that this would be detrimental to FE since I hit a stop sign literally every 1.5 miles or less.

Or maybe driving without pressure is just a matter of dumb luck on any given day?

I drive at around the speed limit +/- 5mph. If someone is going to take issue with me going "under" the speed limit by 5mpg thats realy their problem. If they want to break the law it is up to them to do so and not up to me to encourage them.

Yeah I just try never to do anything that results in dropping under the limit. On roads with easy access to pullouts and such, I always use them and if the car behind is going to pass over the double yellow, I hug the shoulder to give them as much room as possible. I'm not their mother, it's not my job to force them to drive differently, so I just try to let them do what they're going to do as safely as I can.

If I see autos approach me I will just go to speed limit, single lane roads don't normally
exceed 45 in my neck of the woods. Also look at it this way your helping everyone in
your caravan also improve there mpg.

When I learning to drive in Indiana, they stressed to us that it's illegal to obstruct the flow of normal traffic. On highways, this means that if three or more cars are stacked up behind you, it is your obligation to pull over and allow them to pass. This is, as you can imagine, key with narrow state highways and large tractors.

I mention this because it has shaped my very driving style to this day.

Case in point: Hybridfest. I drove all state highways because I wanted to practice technique. In the three hour drive, I must have pulled over half a dozen times on the way up and just as many on the way home. Sometimes, pulling over meant signalling right, tapping the brakes and putting the right wheels on the white line with only a minor deceleration. A couple times though, they didn't seem to know what that meant so I had to act like I was turning at an intersection, completely stop, and let them pass (wouldn't you know it, a couple times someone turned behind me!). In my opinion, that's better than having someone on your butt for several miles.

On other forums and in person, I've had people say that they don't care if cars are stacked up behind them; it's their personal perogative to drive at whatever speed they choose and the other cars have to learn to deal with it. I do not subscribe to that belief.

I understand that point of view Tony.

The thing is. What good are they doing by not slowing down to the legal limit? None. Does their right to break the law trump my right to obey it? Why should it be my responsibility to let them break the law and not their responsibility to obey it?

I feel I am unofficialy enforcing a law that the police won't.

Granted, I'm not going to be a jerk about it and if I REALY have to I would pull to the side, but people realy need to start to see more people going slow if there is any hope that the majority will slow down. If I just speed up then the status quo persists.

I try to let people by me, yet a few nutcases want to run over me anyway. :mad: There may be 2-3 lanes to the left, or you might ride the entire shoulder for a moment - some will vent on you with bright lights, etc...

This is when I dream of having under my bumpers a laser-guided nail gun that puts their tires out. :rolleyes:

I think the reason that I ask this question to begin with is that I used to be the guy on the other end of it. I don't think I ever got visibly upset or rode bumpers, but getting a little frustrated was not out of the question. Was that stupid? Yes, of course. But at the same time I do think it is an important consideration for us all.

One of my primary goals is to "blend in" as much as possible while striving for excellent FE. Those two objectives may seem contradictory, but in the long run I think that they are right in line. Let's say I just throw my cares out the window and DWL at speeds as low as 10-15mph under the limit regardless of who is behind me. At some point, some of those folks are bound to figure out what I'm doing. (Though arguably a very small minority.) Not being of my mindset, they will see my hyper-efficient driving style as terribly obnoxious. Rather than noting an efficient driver, they note a public menace and a justification of their inefficient habits.

It's a tough line to draw in practice, hence the call for opinions. So far very interesting!

**EDIT**
DF- In your honor I have devised a camera rig to document the crazies automatically. With any luck I'll get a couple shots of the white RSX driver's daily one-fingered fly-by. It's so predictable that it's become funny.

I understand that point of view Tony.

The thing is. What good are they doing by not slowing down to the legal limit? None. Does their right to break the law trump my right to obey it? Why should it be my responsibility to let them break the law and not their responsibility to obey it?

I feel I am unofficialy enforcing a law that the police won't.

Granted, I'm not going to be a jerk about it and if I REALY have to I would pull to the side, but people realy need to start to see more people going slow if there is any hope that the majority will slow down. If I just speed up then the status quo persists.
Yeah that's called vigilantism, aka taking the law into your own hands. So do you really believe that a round number on a sign is the absolute "right" speed everyone must travel at in the first place? Even xcel admits to exceeding the posted limit at times when it's safe to do so and aids in the high FE cause. Speed limits are just a made up number on a sign that has an approximate relationship to the safe speed to travel on that road at. Trying to ram your belief system down the throats of others isn't a very respectful thing to do.

...**EDIT**
DF- In your honor I have devised a camera rig to document the crazies automatically. With any luck I'll get a couple shots of the white RSX driver's daily one-fingered fly-by. It's so predictable that it's become funny.

But that would be hateful. :rolleyes: :p

As a few people at GH have lectured me, it's worse to take the picture than to be the driver with issues and/or a safety hazard. In other words, a few at that forum would prefer such assine behavior not be publicized.

brick

Funny you bring this up. :)

Yesterday I got off of hwy 75 south, the 4 lane hwy and moved over to old hwy 75, the 2 lane road. Thought to my self " I'll get on the old slow road and try to top this last tank out in style " It was a waiste of time. The livestock out there looks like its being replaced with homes and suv's. No more old hwy 75 for me.

AZBrandon, I totaly agree that the numbers on the signs are kind of arbitrary. So, who makes the decision on how fast I drive based on those signs? Me or the other driver? Why does the other driver dictate how I drive but I can't dictate how they drive? The point is, the numbers are there. I'm following them and the other guy isn't. Why do I have to be the one over ridden? I still fail to follow the logic.

If the government fails to protect us law abiding citizens it is our right and duty to defend ourselves and the law. If I see an injustice and I see the authorities ignoring it I'm supposed to just let it keep happening?

Just so you know. I'm not realy this hardcore, I only get this way when I actualy think about it. Mostly I'm pretty accomodating on the road. I occasionaly get honked at but its like once a month at best. I get far more hand waves for courtousy and I find they far outweigh the jerks.

Something needs to be done about the speeding. And the over all skills of drivers.

Im sick of the folks that run 50 mph down my street and I live next to a small city park! Cops wont do anything.

Its getting crazy out there.

PHX was nutz when I was there.

AZBrandon, I totaly agree that the numbers on the signs are kind of arbitrary. So, who makes the decision on how fast I drive based on those signs? Me or the other driver? Why does the other driver dictate how I drive but I can't dictate how they drive? The point is, the numbers are there. I'm following them and the other guy isn't. Why do I have to be the one over ridden? I still fail to follow the logic.

If the government fails to protect us law abiding citizens it is our right and duty to defend ourselves and the law. If I see an injustice and I see the authorities ignoring it I'm supposed to just let it keep happening?

Just so you know. I'm not realy this hardcore, I only get this way when I actualy think about it. Mostly I'm pretty accomodating on the road. I occasionaly get honked at but its like once a month at best. I get far more hand waves for courtousy and I find they far outweigh the jerks.

Your POV sounds identical to mine. I also think the numbers on the signs are probably arbitrary but as you said, they're there. If someone is going to pay my tickets, things might be different. I too try to be courteous but sometimes others have to "wait" while I'm obeying the law. I actually had someone threaten to shoot me on another forum because I didn't think I should be forced to break the law; Yahoo group.
TonyPSchaefer wrote: When I learning to drive in Indiana, they stressed to us that it's illegal to obstruct the flow of normal traffic. On highways, this means that if three or more cars are stacked up behind you, it is your obligation to pull over and allow them to pass. This is, as you can imagine, key with narrow state highways and large tractors. I also learned to drive in Indiana and I remember an important "qualifier" to the rule about pulling over for traffic that is stacked up behind you; it applied IF you were going UNDER the posted speed limit.

The numbers posted on the speed limit signs are not a suggestion, they are the law. You are legal to travel at a speed up to the posted number but not over. You can travel slower then the posted number but you cannot obstruct the flow of traffic. Personally I prefer to travel slower then the limit and when traffic builds up behind me I either pull over or speed up to but not over the posted limit. If the traffic behind me wants to go faster then the posted limit that is there bussiness. Just because they want to break the law is no reason for them to expect that I want to or will break the law. Even if "EVERYONE" is driving faster then the posted limit then they are "ALL" breaking the law. In the USA if you don't like a law you have the right to petition to get it changed. Until it is changed it is still the law. On a side note. Who is the real problem, a car going slow or the car that won't pass the slow car when it is legal and safe to do so?

It's not like it's a crime anyway, it's a civil infraction. You do not go to jail, you do not get a criminal conviction.

That may be true, but in my state, if you get too many "civil infractions", you can lose your liscence. This is not to mention ticket fees and insurance rates going up. As I mentioned before, I generally try to be accomodating while I'm driving but until the speeders are willing to pay my tickets and increased insurance and taxi fares if it goes that far, I'm sticking to the speed limit until it's changed or eliminated.

First, you assume driving slower will take more time to arrive at your destination. While it may seem logical it is not nessasarily true. What you have to look at is not top speed, but rather average speed to a destination. In my case it takes just as long to drive to work now as it did before I slowed down. Lights and stop signs tend to equalize the time out. Instead of spending my time at lights I spend it at lower speeds and get through the lights (usualy before) the guys that sped up only to have to stop at it.

So, you are saying that I can't feel safe driving slow because someone else feels they must go faster? Why do you think the leading cause of death in the USA is for people unde 25? Umm. Speed. So, It may very well be that the guy I hinder from speeding might have lost their life. I bet you would have to look very hard to find someone that died driving because they were driving too slow. Oh, and if you do find someone that died because they were driving too slow was there possibly a speeder that wasn't paying attention involved?

I have yet to hear why speeders have more rights than people driving the speed limit. I hear things like "the slow person will get hit from behind". But with that answer the question is was that person that did the hitting driving slow or fast?

So ultimately I say, If you can't drive safely around me at your speed it is up to YOU to slow down because obviously it is YOU that is the problem and are the unsafe one.

Don't point your finger at me, I'm not doing anything wrong. You are!

Note, when I say you I am using it in a generic way and I do not me you AZBrandon specificaly.

First, you assume driving slower will take more time to arrive at your destination. While it may seem logical it is not nessasarily true. What you have to look at is not top speed, but rather average speed to a destination. In my case it takes just as long to drive to work now as it did before I slowed down. Lights and stop signs tend to equalize the time out. Instead of spending my time at lights I spend it at lower speeds and get through the lights (usualy before) the guys that sped up only to have to stop at it.

So, you are saying that I can't feel safe driving slow because someone else feels they must go faster? Why do you think the leading cause of death in the USA is for people unde 25? Umm. Speed. So, It may very well be that the guy I hinder from speeding might have lost their life. I bet you would have to look very hard to find someone that died driving because they were driving too slow. Oh, and if you do find someone that died because they were driving too slow was there possibly a speeder that wasn't paying attention involved?

I have yet to hear why speeders have more rights than people driving the speed limit. I hear things like "the slow person will get hit from behind". But with that answer the question is was that person that did the hitting driving slow or fast?

So ultimately I say, If you can't drive safely around me at your speed it is up to YOU to slow down because obviously it is YOU that is the problem and are the unsafe one.

Don't point your finger at me, I'm not doing anything wrong. You are!

Note, when I say you I am using it in a generic way and I do not me you AZBrandon specificaly.
Ditto. Amen!

I guess "driving without brakes" and "driving without buttheads"
are inversely proportional...
.
It's not the speed, it's the *proximity*. And the rise/fall
times, which the impatient ones don't understand. I've always
been a mellow driver, making all my responses to road conditions
in a very "damped" fashion unless there's some emergency evasive,
and that's *very* rare because I keep myself away from the bad
situations by and large. Taking off slowly across intersections
has saved my butt on more occasions than I can count, because
someone else did something stupid and/or abrupt, and I hadn't
yet reached the place where it could affect me.
.
I tend to oscillate above and below the posted limits, or go at
a speed I think road conditions warrant. I just take a little
longer to get *up* to those speeds and start bleeding it off
substantially [but not ridiculously] before most other people
even think about it. I would argue that it's a style that should
be *required* training for anyone desiring the *privilege* of
being licenced to pilot 2 or 3 tons of scrap metal on the public
ways. This is one of the prime motivators behind that "driving
green in what you own" effort.
.
_H*

I guess it's relevant that I tried to apply some of this discussion on the way home today. Despite one really awful road rage incident that rattled me early on, it seemed worthwhile to see if I could enjoy the rest of the drive. Traffic had built up behind as I entered the back road section (mostly due to afternoon congestion and being first at the light) so I ducked into a driveway for a few seconds to let them all go on their way. That left me at least six or seven miles of blissful, stress free hypermiling before anyone came up behind. It was well worth the few seconds of idling!

First, you assume driving slower will take more time to arrive at your destination. While it may seem logical it is not nessasarily true. What you have to look at is not top speed, but rather average speed to a destination. In my case it takes just as long to drive to work now as it did before I slowed down. Lights and stop signs tend to equalize the time out. Instead of spending my time at lights I spend it at lower speeds and get through the lights (usualy before) the guys that sped up only to have to stop at it.The woman I carpool with is 68 years old but drives like an 18-year-old stressed out with too much caffeine. Scared the crap out of me. After an accident - her fault - I drive exclusively now. Needless to say, I drive considerably slower than she. She has commented on numerous occasions that the drive takes just as long: no longer, no shorter. I tell her that no matter how slowly I drive, I still have a 100% arrival rate to my destination. We get a kick out of the fast drivers who speed past us only to slam on their brakes at the light. Then I catch up to them or pass them; they speed past and slam on their brakes; I stealth past; they speed ahead . . .

so I ducked into a driveway for a few seconds to let them all go on their way. That left me at least six or seven miles of blissful, stress free hypermiling before anyone came up behind. It was well worth the few seconds of idling! That was my thought exactly when I was driving home frm Hybridfest. The momentary pulling over was worth the miles upon miles of peace.

I have a tendancy to speed up to the speed limit when I have cars behind me. I think I will try the pulling over thing; ) It might give me more oportunities to drive at "my" speed.

Hi All:

___Great thread.

___My own POV. I travel 10 under to 10 over out on the Interstates and usually back and forth in a HS P&G. Thank goodness for those going 15 + over as they give me the leeway to ride the high end and thank goodness for the limits (45 - 55 mph) so I can take advantage of those in a FAS while RR. If someone doesn’t want to go around with 3 – 6 lanes to the left of me while I am with in the limits, that is their issue, not mine. That being said, if I am traveling a single lane roadway, I will RR and wave those that might stack up behind. If they are afraid to pass, I will pull off the road at a safe place and let them by in that manner. When I say pull over, I am talking about pulling into a subdivision, U-turning back around, and back onto the main roadway without losing much in the way of momentum.

___Tim, I suggest looking for an opportunity like the last one described because idling in a drive to let someone pass is akin to blasphemy :D

___Another … although very few saw it. When I pulled out on for the FE Challenge run at HF2006, I had to perform something similar not 200’ after leaving the starting cones to let traffic stacked up ahead move forward before I could smart brake into far fewer obstacles at an even slower speed in a FAS. A long line of cars was sitting at a stop sign as they were leaving the Fair grounds. A journalist who was with us that weekend told me later he knew exactly what I did and it worked like a charm. Just remember, keep your options as open as possible and the FE will get seriously stupid real quick ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I'm just obeying laws that are in place. If there were a law against fast food and I was forced to eat fast food am I enforcing my morality?

I have no idea why limiters are set the way they are. I suspect it is because of the rating on the tires that come from the factory more than anything else. I think factory tires on such cars are rated at about the same speeds as the limiters (probably to eliminated liability of the manufacture from law suits)

We do now have laws against smoking in public places because of the damage smoking does to the innocent. Speeding can kill just as easily if not more so than second hand smoke. It seems however that people can control their smoking better than they can their need for speed.

We do have laws against driving drunk don't we? Why are we enforcing our morality on those that choose to drink and drive? Because it can harm us thats why. As can speeding.

Maybe we should start to require people that get more than one speeding ticket a year to put a speed limiters on their cars like we require breath analyzers on those drivers convicted of DWIs.

Seriously, I realy don't have problems with people that want to speed. My objection is that I should be allowed not to speed. Why must I fight for this right? Why is it MY burden?

"Seriously, I realy don't have problems with people that want to speed. My objection is that I should be allowed not to speed. Why must I fight for this right? Why is it MY burden?"

IMO that sums it up.

I think AZ is desensitize to the issue.

I'm assuming that there are stop signs every 1.5 miles because you are driving through suburban (formerly rural) neighborhoods. If that is the case, I find it disrespectful to drive like a maniac through someone's neighborhood and stick to the limit. It is there not just for my safety, but for the safety of the people and their families who live along that route. No one wants a speedway in front of their home. Road raging commuters are not a welcome presence in anyone's neighborhood. Once I am out in the open country, then I'll go over the limit if it suits the situation. I will yield to the road warriors if/when I get an acceptable opportunity for me.

How do you guys handle this?
Since I started hypermiling safety is #1, courtesy to other drivers #2.
But #2 also doesn't mean I'm doomed to be underfoot.

Situation#1
As I'm beginning from a stop light in the middle of a pack of cars I begin setting up a traffic buffer. Typically the car(s) ahead of me are speeding up, tightly packed while my buffer is increasing. I look behind and see:
1. Large distance behind and growing. I ease off more.
2. Car behind is following at a safe, comfortable distance. No tension. I just keep doing what I'm doing.
3. Car behind is tailgating, irritated that I'm falling short of the pack. I'll still set up a reasonable buffer but not as large as desired.
4. Car behind is agressive, on edge of rage. I've not seen this.

95% of the time I see #2.

Situation#2
I'm driving down the road, nobody behind. Going the speed limit or below. A car(s) from a distance approach from behind:
1. Slowly approach and keep distance. I make no changes.
2. Slowly approach and keep distance for a few miles, then close in, but not agressive. I'll increase speed at or near speed limit, exceeding when it favors DWL.
3. Fast approach behind. Tailgating. I'll increase speed at or near speed limit, exceeding when it favors DWL.
4. Fast approach. Tailgating. Edge of rage. I'll find a way to let them pass.

95% of the time I see #1 and #2

We've all been talgated on a multiple-lane freeway only to find that it isn't really our speed, but just the fact that we're in their way and will tailgate the next guy going 20MPH faster than us. I see tailgaters on a single lane road as the same. They pass and get right behind their next victim. They do it because they get away with it. I equate them to dog-kickers or wife beaters. A sickness.

-Steve

Seriously, I realy don't have problems with people that want to speed. My objection is that I should be allowed not to speed. Why must I fight for this right? Why is it MY burden?

I have no problems with people who want to speed. If they want to speed, fine. Just don't try to force that on me. Also, don't compound thier speeding by tailgating. If they see my obeying the law as dangerous, why do they do something more dangerous by tailgating? Perhaps if people cause an accident or kill someone and the cause can be directly attributed to that speeding, they should have thier liscence suspended just as somene who gets caught for DUI.

...We've all been talgated on a multiple-lane freeway only to find that it isn't really our speed, but just the fact that we're in their way and will tailgate the next guy going 20MPH faster than us. I see tailgaters on a single lane road as the same. They pass and get right behind their next victim. They do it because they get away with it. I equate them to dog-kickers or wife beaters. A sickness.

-Steve

Got to strongly agree after a couple of evenings this week.

Situation #1: I'm trying to get on a busy access lane to US 75 in Richardson. The ramp to the freeway is 100 yards away. I finally get on the access road, but this speeding (70 in a 45) minivan almost beyond visual pops up and swirves like she has a kid in the ICU.

Situation #2: Same access road to US 75, but a mile farther north. I was five seconds from the ramp to the freeway doing 50, and this lead-footed F-150 blasts by me. After getting on the freeway, I snap and pass him with an attitude (yes, a bad example).

This nonsense is going to happen, but I probably can be subjected to less of it. In the evenings I need to either leave immediately after work or stay 2-3 hours as rush hour dies down. Being on Dallas freeways between 5-6pm will be frustrating.

What gets me steamed is when you give drivers behind you legit ways to pass you and the still pass you on the shoulder or something else that expresses rage. :mad:

Another Thought

I'm glad that someone in Wisconsin saw my www.cleanmpg.com (http://www.cleanmpg.com) sticker and joined. I'm starting to think it tends to promote the reverse reaction in Dallas. Consider the demographics of my area that has above average of commuter 5 liter vehicles and tends to agree with Rush Limbaugh on hybrids. The see I'm not speeding. They see that "wierd" Insight. They see the "Animal Friendly" Texas licence plate. The see the www.cleanmpg.com (http://www.cleanmpg.com) sticker on the back of my Insight. I think some drivers down here slam on the accelerator quicker and figure I'm an "enviromental left-wing wacko". Of course, there are a sizable group in Dallas that consider right of center socialist :rolleyes:

I'm not removing the sticker.