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Ok, I'm still sort of new here. I've posted a little but lurked more than not. I'm one of those guys out there driving the large 4x4(factory spec) Heavy duty trucks that only gets 10mpg on a good day. I can occasionally get 11-13. Ever since I got this vehicle I have been a target for the smaller cars on the highway to draft behind and I've not really had a major issue with it. I can't say I really liked someone riding on my bumper but I could deal with it. I understand it, I'm not bitter. Until now.

Wednesday, August 20th(My Birthday was the 21st), I had a Prius behind me riding close enough that at times I couldn't see them in either of my mirrors. We were on the road traveling at 55-60mph when I had a German sheperd run out in front of me. I hit my brakes. That prius caused me frame damage, rear bumper totalled, bed of truck crushed but possibly repairable. The Prius, totalled. No one was hurt luckily. Everyone walked away.

The prius owner had no insurance so now I am stuck with the bill of $1000.00 deductible and my insurance will most likely go up now due to a claim I had to file in order to get my truck fixed. I special ordered this truck and received it only 4 months ago and I now have nearly $4000.00 of damage becuase someone was trying to save a few miles per gallon at my expense.

Please, Please be careful out there when you do things like this. think of me when you do.

Sorry to hear it happened that way, but I really think most of
the people who tailgate aren't even thinking about MPG -- whether
they're driving Priuses or monster RVs or whatever, they're
just all in this stupid, contrived hurry-up-and-get-nowhere
mode. I see all different combinations of vehicles tailgating
each other in every possible order, particularly in left lanes
of interstates, and occasionally there's a Prius mixed up with
them but there's nothing special about that.
.
What excuse, if any, did the Prius owner offer? Did you bring
up the issue of idiot-grade tailgating and whose fault it pretty
clearly was, and are you willing to pursue that further? Lack
of insurance does not absolve one of liability.
.
_H*

if you have lurked here for a while, you will realize that you probably won't find any serious hypermiler tailgating. and just because the driver was in a prius, i don't know that you can assume that he/she was hypermiling. we just don't condone it and i would have to think that 99% of the members here don't do it.

by the way, i am sorry you had the accident.

Maybe its different where you live, but around here if you drive the speed limit being tailgated is a fact of life--it doesn't matter what you're driving or what they're driving. Like Hobbit said, it mostly seems to be about rude or thoughtless people being in a hurry and not about drafting for gas mileage. Not that I'm saying people don't need to be reminded to be careful now and then.

Sorry your truck took that much damage. Either I must've been wrong about how tough the Ram's bumpers are or else the other driver mustn't have been paying much attention for there to have been so much speed difference--maybe they were on the phone too?

They were going 55-60mph and coming to an abrupt stop. I'm surprised there isn't more damage to the truck. The Prius driver was a moron -- no insurance and tailgating? Yeesh, those are the real threats and I wouldn't be surprised if that driver never even heard of the term "hypermiler" before he met the wrong end of Newtonian physics.

They were going 55-60mph and coming to an abrupt stop. I'm surprised there isn't more damage to the truck. The Prius driver was a moron -- no insurance and tailgating? Yeesh, those are the real threats and I wouldn't be surprised if that driver never even heard of the term "hypermiler" before he met the wrong end of Newtonian physics.

Reaction time, when you are sober and paying attenton, is ~.2-.3 seconds--a Ram super cab 4x4 won't slow down 55 mph in .2-.3 seconds and you have to figure there was a least a little gap between the vehicles when he hit the brakes for the dog. If the driver was tailgating, sober and paying attention, I would guess a 10-15 mph difference would be about the maximum unless the Prius had a brake problem. The Prius driver probably was a fool in more than one way; drive carefully out there.

I will chime in and second the notion that the Prius was not "hypermiling". It was just another proctologist looking to get somewhere a tenth of a second sooner. I'd bet they were on the phone, too. And to drive a late model car without insurance, on today's roads, is insane. They're now out $20k+ and will have to shell out for a new car. And good luck getting another Prius - there's a line out the door for em. The Prius will end up totalled because the replacement parts are astronomical. You see a bunch of them on eBay with salvage titles and little more than cosmetic damage. They're too expensive to fix.

Even if you live in a no-fault state, your insurance will not necessarily increase, especially if the police report lists the other driver's tailgating as a contributing factor. If this is the first claim, talk to your agent and explain the situation. They will almost certainly check the driving history of the other driver (who probably had no insurance due to excessive claims), and draw their own conclusion.

I am sorry to hear about the crash, and I am thankful that you were not hurt. The truck can be repaired quickly and easily (although not inexpensively). Injuries from vehicle crashes can cause permanent pain and disability, and that is not something I would wish on my worst enemy.

No way was the Prius driver hypermiling.

First of all, the majority of Prius drivers are struggling to meet the EPA; by definition, not hypermiling, so automatically the probability of any given Prius being hypermiled is pretty small.

Second, hypermiling requires a high level of concentration. Obviously that wasn't happening here.

Third, tailgating is antithetical to hypermiling -- you HAVE to leave room in front of you to allow for the lead vehicle's speed changes without having to burn off too much excess speed.

Fourth, hypermilers as a group tend to be more responsible than the average driver -- in other words, not likely to be driving without insurance. A Prius driver without insurance is probably a rarity, since a Prius is a pretty expensive car (min $15k even used) -- uninsured drivers are shockingly common (30%) around here, but they almost exclusively drive cheaper, older cars.

Sorry about the accident.

NO, the Prius owner was not hypermiling. You have to be thinking, "Okay, how much space do I have here? Am I too close? Can I pulse and glide here?" What the Prius owner was doing was being stupid and rude ("I'M GOING SOMEWHERE SO YOU GET OUTTA MY WAY!!!")

I don't know what your roads were like (two lane, one lane, dirt, blacktop). But I'm finding ways to deal with that. If I'm where I can I LOVE to do a reverse pass. Another thing I try to do is look for a spot where I can pull to the side of the road and let them pass if I have to (sometimes a POLICE STATION gets their attention, sometimes not).

I would recommend trying a more advanced technique of pulse and glide , which will accomplish two things (1) improve your fe and (2) annoy tailgaters. :D fe is actually better via a good pulse and glide than drafting.

If that Prius owner had ever heard of CleanMPG and bothered to spend 10 minutes reading, he would have known that tailgating a 4x4 is an exercise in futility, not to mention dangerous. To me, this just tells me that the intelligence (to us, anyway) of a car buying decision may have little or nothing to do with the individual's common sense. Lack of insurance alone speaks volumes.

I'm sorry to hear of your accident, and I'm glad you came out of it with no bodily harm. But it is unfair to assume that we would ever, even for a second, condone what that idiot did.

What? something is not adding up right!
A car rams into you, at fault completely, and your ins. wants to raise your rates for making the claim?
Back when I used to bike to work I got home one night to find my car wrecked by a hit and run with no witnesses, my insurance still took care of it no increase in rates at all!

Thanks for sharing your incident with us . I get tailgated all the time and thought it was not a big deal, since I leave lots of buffer in front, so I wouldn't have to stop and get drilled from behind. Didn't really think of an animal or worse running out from the bushes forcing a hard brake. I will be working harder now to get TGrs around me now!

michael, around here in minnesota, especially with the upcoming hunting season when deer are more active, seeing a conga line of tailgaters really makes me wonder how they have the confidence (or stupidity) to do it. you just NEVER know when a deer is going to make a charge across the freeway, and with as close as i have seen people riding each other it would take out more than one car.......

i just don't understand how they can NOT think about that.......i was going 30, which was the speed limit, through sartell one time and had a procto on my tail when a cat ran across in front of me. i am sure lucky we weren't going any faster.

The driver of that Prius was definitely not hypermiling, just another ignorant tailgater driving outside their physical ability to react to an emergency situation in time. :mad: I'm sorry this happened to you and it's a huge crock of !@#$ that your insurance rate might be raised for something like this when it was clearly 0% your fault.

Hypermiling out on the highway requires a lot of concentration - it means driving at a legal speed (that is, between the posted limits) and doing a lot of other things at the same time that help the specific vehicle achieve maximum MPG. Hypermiling in general is about anticipation, being able to see things 10-20 seconds ahead (or more) and react to them *before* they become a problem. Being in a situation where you may or may not have to slam on your brakes in the next 1/4-second to react to another driver and avoid an accident is pretty much antithetical to what hypermiling is about.

i just don't understand how they can NOT think about that.......i was going 30, which was the speed limit, through sartell one time and had a procto on my tail when a cat ran across in front of me. i am sure lucky we weren't going any faster.

Its not just animals,, instead of a cat, it could easily have been a child chasing after a runaway ball or a couple of kids chasing each other.

Ok, I'm still sort of new here. I've posted a little but lurked more than not. I'm one of those guys out there driving the large 4x4(factory spec) Heavy duty trucks that only gets 10mpg on a good day. I can occasionally get 11-13. Ever since I got this vehicle I have been a target for the smaller cars on the highway to draft behind and I've not really had a major issue with it. I can't say I really liked someone riding on my bumper but I could deal with it. I understand it, I'm not bitter. Until now.

Wednesday, August 20th(My Birthday was the 21st), I had a Prius behind me riding close enough that at times I couldn't see them in either of my mirrors. We were on the road traveling at 55-60mph when I had a German sheperd run out in front of me. I hit my brakes. That prius caused me frame damage, rear bumper totalled, bed of truck crushed but possibly repairable. The Prius, totalled. No one was hurt luckily. Everyone walked away.

The prius owner had no insurance so now I am stuck with the bill of $1000.00 deductible and my insurance will most likely go up now due to a claim I had to file in order to get my truck fixed. I special ordered this truck and received it only 4 months ago and I now have nearly $4000.00 of damage becuase someone was trying to save a few miles per gallon at my expense.

Please, Please be careful out there when you do things like this. think of me when you do.

John,

Your grievence with the Prius driver very justified. Tailgating is both wrong and annoying - PERIOD. Stronly suspect this is one of the "just drive it" or possibly more accurately "just gun it" types.

I think this Prius driver is going to pay even more dearly for his foolishness. He won't be able to get another Prius right away and he would need insurance....his rates WILL be higher.

Just the fact it's harder to get hybrid vehicles serviced should discourage even non-hypermiling hybrids from recklessly tailgating.

Umm...isn't it illegal to drive without car insurance?

Umm...isn't it illegal to drive without car insurance?In Texas it is.

John, I'm sorry about the accident, but you should know that in many states it is regarded as illegal to swerve or the like to avoid an animal on the road. No, they are not worried about tailgaters, they are concerned about the driver. The reason is that too many drivers and innocent bystanders have been killed or injured because the driver lost control after he/she tried to avoid the animal in the road. If you swerve and hit someone else you are likely to get blamed for the accident. A sudden stop might be more up in the air on how the powers that be decide who is at fault. However you don't want to risk him hitting you in the rear and having your gas tank rupture and catch on fire.

So while to me it seems the accident was totally the other guys fault, I am sure his insurance company would be challenging yours because they will make the argument that your sudden maneuver contributed to the accident. One of the questions the other guys insurance company always asks me after any accident is what could I have done to avoid the accident. If the guilty fellow had been hurt I can just see them saying you knew he was tailgating you and therefore so you should not have slammed on your breaks in the middle of the road just to miss a dog.

Wow, bad luck-glad you are ok.
I didn't see wear the OP said he swerved, did I just miss it? He did the exactly right thing,and hit the brakes.

It was really bad luck to find a driver of a fairly new , fairly expensive car with no darned insurance ( most Prius average about 2005-2006 model year). The driver was a space cadet. Tailgating AND not paying attention. Most hypermilers are twitchy alert , I doubt it was a mpg driver. It was probably just a run of the mill idiot. Of course , it is possible it was someone trying to save gas
Luck,
Charlie

Sorry to hear about the accident. In Ireland, if you are caught without insurance, you are screwed. Fines, penalty points on your licence(if you have one!) and massive insurance premiums if you decide to get insured in the future. If you rear end someone, you are in the wrong no matter what. The law here states that you should be driving at a speed at which you can safely stop in the case of an obstruction. If you get involved in a crash without insurance, you will be paying the full amount of the damage no matter how long it takes. A friend of my wife drove her hubbys car without insurance and totalled a few cars in a crash she didn't start. That was about ten years ago and she's still paying for it. It's like a second mortgage. I don't know how legal stuff works around your way but i'd follow up that a$$h0le prius driver and sue them for all they are worth. You should have a good case. Best of luck getting back on track.

ollie

Sorry to hear about the accident. In Ireland, if you are caught without insurance, you are screwed. Fines, penalty points on your licence(if you have one!) and massive insurance premiums if you decide to get insured in the future....

Here in the US, there are several states where even liability insurance is optional. Then, we have a large number of illegal immigrants who drive with no license and phony insurance tied to the registered owner of the vehicle. If they are convicted, they just change their identity and get another car. They "disappear" without a trace.

And if that isn't bad enough, if you are unfortunate enough to be involved in a collision with them, they will sue you to cash in on the insurance. A friend of mine was driving his car and was hit by an illegal immigrant who turned left into the side of his car. The other driver sued him, claiming personal injury and loss of income due to being off work. They didn't count on my buddy having another friend who worked in the same factory as the plaintiff. The woman claiming to be unable to work was indeed working. But since they get paid in cash, there is no paper trail to prove it. My sister (law office manager) said these people sue all the time, and they collect, because it is cheaper for the insurance company to write a check than to go to trial because court costs are so high and the other driver doesn't have any insurance or asset worth pursuing.

Although immigration is a "hot button" issue in the US and so it is not always wise to reference it in a thread, this account is provided to illustrate that any collision can be the result of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And it is a major headache and expense for both drivers.

is it only me who finds it strange that the original poster hasn't added anything else to this thread?

Nope. Nope.

In other threads, the OP said he works in emergency medicine, so it may just be an instance of a long work shift occurring between then and now? Perhaps he'll chime in again when he gets home and unwinds a bit. There are times when I'm "away" from my CleanMPG family for a few days, and it takes me time to catch up with everyone when I return. :)

John, I'm sorry about the accident, but you should know that in many states it is regarded as illegal to swerve or the like to avoid an animal on the road.That is preposterous. Cite please.

I have a niece who had a deer come through the windshield of her car and land in the back seat. It bled and kicked and successfully demolished the car from the inside out before it died. Fortunately she avoided much physical injury.

The concept of it being illegal to try to slow down or avoid the animal cannot possibly stand up in court.

Yes, it is a little odd. I think it is odd for someone with an almost new car to not have insurance. -Most prius are just 3 years old, and most are still owned by the finance company. Finance companies require insurance. Folks with enough $$ to buy a $25000 car usually can pay for insurance.

I'm always too suspicious. Chances are it is as he said. He got hit by a hypermiling, drafting , uninsured Prius driver . Have any of our Prius drivers gone silent lately??

Just kidding,
Charlie

I think in the process of swerving, you risk crashing into other cars, people, etc. which is why it might be illegal.

Well, you could always forget and let your insurance lapse... it's possible. You wouldn't be able to register the car for the subsequent year, but then you'd need to get caught before that happens. I once saw a truck with an OLD (really old) blue PA plate tooling around here in NC. They phased out the blue plates back before 2000, if memory serves. Meaning, you were sent a new plate. You had to put on the new plate. Failure to do so would result in you being pulled over and cited. And the little sticker was plainly well past the renewal date by several years. I suppose it's just dumb luck he never met a cop that cared here in NC, but that thing was surely not registered here or in PA any longer.

That is preposterous. Cite please.

I have a niece who had a deer come through the windshield of her car and land in the back seat. It bled and kicked and successfully demolished the car from the inside out before it died. Fortunately she avoided much physical injury.

The concept of it being illegal to try to slow down or avoid the animal cannot possibly stand up in court.

wdb, I sorry about what happened to your niece.

With a fair amount of looking around the web I have yet to find a specific law on the issue. I did find of number of lawsuits as a result of some other person being injured after someone swerved to avoid an animal with what seemed like mixed results. So perhaps the law is something I just remember hearing. But clearly people are using the argument that swerving to avoid an animal in the road and that resulting in an accident with someone obeying the law is grounds for a lawsuit.

What I did find was almost universal advice never to swerve - even for large animals. The consensus seems to be that the risks of injury are much larger if you swerve than if you just hit the animal. Some references did not like hard breaking, most seemed to say slow down if you could maintain control of your vehicle.

The poster did not say he swerved, just that he made a sudden stop from 55-60 mph. He was driving a large pickup truck and knew the Prius was tailgating him.

I don't know if your read all of my original post or not, but I also said in there that I felt that the guy who him time was totally at fault.

One big point for me was that I would not like to be facing the lawyers for the man who hit me who are going to say "you slammed on your brakes knowing you would be hit by my client when you knew that hitting the dog would cause little or no damage to your truck."

Lawyers and insurance companies go after this kind of thing. One of their favorite questions is "could you have done anything to avoid the accident?" They like it because perhaps although their client was in the wrong they hope they can put part of the blame on you for not doing something that would have avoided the accident and this will reduce whatever settlement you eventually get.

Well, you could always forget and let your insurance lapse... it's possible. You wouldn't be able to register the car for the subsequent year, but then you'd need to get caught before that happens. I once saw a truck with an OLD (really old) blue PA plate tooling around here in NC. They phased out the blue plates back before 2000, if memory serves. Meaning, you were sent a new plate. You had to put on the new plate. Failure to do so would result in you being pulled over and cited. And the little sticker was plainly well past the renewal date by several years. I suppose it's just dumb luck he never met a cop that cared here in NC, but that thing was surely not registered here or in PA any longer.

There was a piece in the Washington Post a couple of weeks ago about a new gizmo being used in Charles County MD that read license plates, feeds the plate to the central data base and then alerts the cop if the guys registration or insurance is not current. Then he stops the guy on the spot.

The OP does sound sort of like shtick, but I like to give benefit of the doubt and a holiday weekend is the sort of thing that might keep, ahem, normal people off the web and, for that matter, keep critical care nurses working overtime.

is it only me who finds it strange that the original poster hasn't added anything else to this thread?

It's been less than 24 hours, so I see nothing odd in OP not yet responding. Some computer users do have a life, or even a job :-) so it may take several days to get back to see the replies.

In a previous political forum, I made a snide remark before going to work. During the work day someone cross-posted it, without full context, to similar forums to which I didn't subscribe. It raised a massive storm. At an activist meeting that evening right after work, several sarcasm-impaired folks were furious that I hadn't retracted my posting in all forums, apologized everywhere, and groveled at their feet. It never occurred to any of them that I didn't read any forums from work, didn't subscribe via my work email, and was unaware of the storm. (It was also aggravated by other factors not relevant here.)


As for uninsured drivers, during my younger years numerous coworkers did not have their lives sufficiently ordered to remember to keep their insurance up to date, or replace their out-of-state licenses with the required in-state licenses. Combined with various police reports of the frequency of unlicensed, uninsured drivers, I'm not at all surprised that numerous readers will have run-ins with drivers who do not have their papers in order -- even those who do have the financial means to be responsible.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

I'm sure he will have pictures of the mishap.

There was a piece in the Washington Post a couple of weeks ago about a new gizmo being used in Charles County MD that read license plates, feeds the plate to the central data base and then alerts the cop if the guys registration or insurance is not current. Then he stops the guy on the spot.

Yeah, I was gonna say, how can one not have insurance nowadays?
Yeah I realize you can get insurance, pay the down pmt, and then pay no more. Does that not affect your credit? How do you buy a Prius?

Also, if you quit paying, does it not show up at your DMV? And therefore on your cop's computer? It does in Texas, AFAIK. You have to show proof of insurance to do anything involving a vehicle in Texas.

Still, there are Texas drivers w/o insurance. :confused:

:confused: -jon

michael, around here in minnesota, especially with the upcoming hunting season when deer are more active, seeing a conga line of tailgaters really makes me wonder how they have the confidence (or stupidity) to do it. you just NEVER know when a deer is going to make a charge across the freeway, and with as close as i have seen people riding each other it would take out more than one car.......

i just don't understand how they can NOT think about that.......i was going 30, which was the speed limit, through sartell one time and had a procto on my tail when a cat ran across in front of me. i am sure lucky we weren't going any faster.

Funny we were just talking about this!
this evening while gliding down a rural county road I saw 2 racoons on the left side of the road, and sure enough, just as I was about to go by them, they darted for my side of the road. I braked pretty hard, not enough to lock them up though. I thought one was going to bite it, I will NOT swerve off the road or into the oncoming lane to spare an animal!
but i didn't feel a bump, and saw no road kill left behind, so i think it made it. :)
If I was going the speed limit or higher i would have squashed them almost certainly.:eek:


Why did the chicken cross the road?

to show the racoons and possums it can be done!:p:p

If I was going the speed limit or higher i would have squashed them almost certainly.:eek:Happy to hear you missed them. However when it comes to animals it's still just a crapshoot; unless you're doing 5mph, an animal can still dart in front of you in an instant -- leaving you no time to brake. It happened to me about 20 minutes ago, and my speed had nothing to do with it. I struck and (thankfully) killed the poor critter, and I never even had the time to move my foot to the brake pedal.

As for the original poster, I get a definite 'troll' vibe. Perhaps tinged with a bit of jealousy. ;)

JohnMcD,
Glad no one was seriously hurt. And great quote in your sig!

Now one you don't want to run out in front of you is a skunk - I had one do that to me one time and I was on a bicycle going about 30mph with no time to stop. He spotted me and stopped in his tracks. Fortuneatly I went around him so fast he did not have time to take aim at me. I think I missed him by about three feet.

Now the rabbit was not as lucky. I managed to him him with the rear wheel of the bike. He ran out stopped, took of in front of me and got by, turned around and ran back. My foot him as he went between the wheels. Then the rear wheel got him. Last I saw him he crawled back into the woods.

Happy to hear you missed them. However when it comes to animals it's still just a crapshoot; unless you're doing 5mph, an animal can still dart in front of you in an instant -- leaving you no time to brake. It happened to me about 20 minutes ago, and my speed had nothing to do with it. I struck and (thankfully) killed the poor critter, and I never even had the time to move my foot to the brake pedal.

As for the original poster, I get a definite 'troll' vibe. Perhaps tinged with a bit of jealousy. ;)

crapshoot is right. My son had a deer stop in the road. As he slowly passed him the deer turned and ran right into the side of the car.

Last time a deer ran out in front of me I was being tailgated by some woman. If I had slammed on the breaks I would have been hit. However I was able to slow up just enough to miss the deer by a couple of feet and get still not get hit from behind. The woman did not learn. She continued to tailgate me for another mile.

Being illegal to swerve to miss an animal doesn't make sense. I had to swerve on the Interstate once to miss a garbage can that flew out of someone's pickup. What about those big chunks of tire, or any kind of debris?

It is possible that the OP is involved with hurricane prep-especially if he is in the medical field.
Luck,
Charlie

Here in the US, there are several states where even liability insurance is optional. Then, we have a large number of illegal immigrants who drive with no license and phony insurance tied to the registered owner of the vehicle. If they are convicted, they just change their identity and get another car. They "disappear" without a trace.In Texas, you must have proof of insurance for car inspection, getting licence plate renewal, anything. In spite of all this, I suspect the more than usual wild driving I see early in the morning is the result of uninsured drivers as MaxxMPG depicted....it's not as bad in the evening. Kind of strange it happens at 6am, but seem to also see a lot of drivers that act like they are not sober. Not trying to be offensive - just making my observations.

Then I suppose it would be illegal on a two lane road where swerving could lead to oncoming traffic.

Unless the big chunks of tire or debris suddenly flew out in front of you, I don't think you would be swerving, especially on an Interstate.

Maybe it's not illegal at all but I think the point is that if someone has to die, better it be the animal than you or your family.

I think it's less about the legality of swerving to avoid *anything*, and more about using it as a defense in the event of an accident. It probably does not stand up as a defense.

Where does the law in the US stand on somebody rear ending your vehicle?

ollie

Where does the law in the US stand on somebody rear ending your vehicle?

ollie


It is almost always regarded the fault of the guy who hit you in the rear. There are exceptions, but you likely need a witness to say the guy in front did something dumb - like cut in front of you and slam on their breaks. That is an insurance scam that does get run here in the states. Someone cuts in front of you, suddenly hits their breaks, you hit them, they sue you. Sometimes they will have a friend in another car who will witness the "accident" for them just to say you were wrong.

In MN it is no-fault from what I've told. This means ANY drivers involved in an accident (unless the vehicle is legally parked and empty) are responsible. :( This was not the case in SC and I can tell you it makes me very nervous during the winter when I have to not only be careful about conditions ahead of me but also the situation behind me in icy environments -- not nice when you have very little ability to get out of the way. :(

crapshoot is right. My son had a deer stop in the road. As he slowly passed him the deer turned and ran right into the side of the car.I had a deer run into the side of my car as well, at night, as I was traveling at very low speed -- I was literally driving through a herd of about 10 deer, who were just standing around in the road! I'm told that they don't understand that a car has 3 dimensions, not just 2; as soon as the headlights pass them they think the thing is gone, but of course it's not, and they run into it. My Subie has a nice little dent in a very odd place from that episode.

In MN it is no-fault from what I've told. This means ANY drivers involved in an accident (unless the vehicle is legally parked and empty) are responsible. :( This was not the case in SC and I can tell you it makes me very nervous during the winter when I have to not only be careful about conditions ahead of me but also the situation behind me in icy environments -- not nice when you have very little ability to get out of the way. :(

I am not sure I understand the no fault thing.
when my van was totaled by the lady in the monster suv this spring I got a nice check from her ins, and it did not effect my account at all!
and thanks to the miracle invention called ductape, I am still driving the van too:rolleyes:

Michael, I thought your van was parked and you weren't in it?

You are half right, I WAS parked, but I was in it! :eek:

Wow, very active thread;

Sorry about the accident John. Did you avoid hitting the dog, even after being slammed?
How did the police react to the guy with no insurance when they wrote up the accident? What state did the accident happen in?

---------------
For the group:

I can't image its ever illegal to swerve or other to avoid an accident, however once you take action, you also take some responsibility. If a crash occurs & your initial reaction played a part in the accident, you can be help partially responsible.

Example 1; You think something runs in front of you (as in this case), and swerve into oncoming traffic & have an accident. You would be repsonsible for that head on collision.
Now this example assumes you do something illegal; Breaking shouldn't be illegal, escpecially with cause;

Example 2: Oncoming traffic leaves their lane & enters yours; You swerve to avoid driver, but they also swerve to avoid you & you both collide. Strangly, you can often be held partially responsible even through you would have never done anything if they hadn't entered your lane. Amazing how many drink driving accidents occur where someone else gets partial blame for the accident.

I have always been curious what I would do if someone (pedestrian) ran in front of me & I could avoid hitting them, but in so doing would crash into an occupied car. The other car driver would be more likely to survive, but they were innocent of the event. Not that this would be thought out during the event, but how would you want to react? I'll put specific numbers for this thought...
1. Ped takes illegal action and would be considered at fault for any accident;
2. No matter what happens, ped (or family) will take responsibility;
3. Ped has 60% chance of dying if hit;
4. Oncoming driver has 10% chance of dying;
5. Your chance of death is 0% with ped & 10% with oncoming driver;

Same scenerio, but ped (or family) will not take responsibility & will run from car/car accident.

In my opinion, the ped made the mistake & should take the risk either way. If it were only property damage vs. life, I'd take the property damage even if I ended up paying for it. The real tough question would be a no-fault sitation where none of the people involved/at-risk made a mistake. Say a crosswalk light turned green at the wrong time, or a baby in a stroller getting into traffic. Now I'd rather do whatever minimizes risk of death for everyone involved, but who is going to be able to analyze that in real time?


----------
No fault states;
Once again, wikipedia has the answers including states
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-fault_insurance

. I don't know how legal stuff works around your way but i'd follow up that a$$h0le prius driver and sue them for all they are worth. You should have a good case. Best of luck getting back on track.

ollie

The only problem with sueing the person is that most people that don't carry insurance on their vehicles don't have a pot to -iss in so you're likely just going to be out a bunch of money in attorney fees and court costs.

Just be greatful that you were not hurt. I was involved in a construction accident almost 9 years ago that left me disabled and in constant pain. I know it's bad situation to be in, having your nearly new truck wrecked, but the truck can be replaced or repaired which is more than I can say for my health. Doctors have told me that I will have to live in pain for the rest of my life. I would much rather have had a car destroyed than my health.

Welcome to CleanMPG!

... I will have to live in pain for the rest of my life. I would much rather have had a car destroyed than my health.Very sorry to hear that happened to you! :(

Ford Man- that is rough. Chronic pain is extremely hard to deal with, and there is no really good medical treatment for most cases. If there is a decent it always requires insurance- extremely good insurance- and you usually aren't fully covered for extensive rehab that lasts years. The "legit" pain clinics are extremely expensive and frequently offer less than satisfactory , but very lucrative therapies. The dodgy "pain pill clinics" actually offer "pills" that work, but once again they are very expensive, you develope tolerance, and you go into a nasty withdrawal when the Feds come in and close them down. The family Dr. frequently is the best bet; he can give you enough analgesia to get by. Chronic pain is one of the toughest problems-only no good choices.

My wife is on disability- autoimmune condition that attacked the arteries that "feed" her l feet, legs,eyes, hands, arms etc. She couldn't walk for several months, but it doing much better now.She has a fair amount of wierd nerve pain- like a diabetic. I've learned more about chronic disability than I ever wanted to.

Hey, where is the OP?? Yes,I'm always suspicious.

Charlie

Hi All:

___I am a bit suspicious about this one too. A Prius owner is driving a $25,000 vehicle more than likely and if it is not paid off, it is insured. If it is paid off, the guy or gal has a ton of money to spare and would be insured to protect it. A hypermiler? Not even close.

___OP, pics of the vehicles and details as I suspect some stretch of the truth has been cast upon us with the story as posted. And a Dodge Ram no less. Are they made of tin as of late?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

The only problem with sueing the person is that most people that don't carry insurance on their vehicles don't have a pot to -iss in so you're likely just going to be out a bunch of money in attorney fees and court costs.

Even the amount of insurance they are required to carry by law can be very low. I think in MD is something like $20,000. No way does that cover a major accident.

One solution to protect yourself is to carry a higher limit and they carry a rider that basically covers you to your limit in case the other fellow is at fault and does not have adequate insurance to cover the injuries. It will cost you, but pays off in case of need. Of course you may have to get a lawyer and sue your own insurance company. But I can tell you it does work.

Even the amount of insurance they are required to carry by law can be very low. I think in MD is something like $20,000. No way does that cover a major accident.

One solution to protect yourself is to carry a higher limit and they carry a rider that basically covers you to your limit in case the other fellow is at fault and does not have adequate insurance to cover the injuries. It will cost you, but pays off in case of need. Of course you may have to get a lawyer and sue your own insurance company. But I can tell you it does work.

I carry a boatload of "underinsurance" for just that reason - getting hit by uninsured or underinsured motorists. It s*cks that you have to pay to insure yourself because the minimums are pathetic in so many states, but it is critical today, considering the costs of replacing/repairing the vehicle, treatment of injuries, and so on.

If an uninsured Prius (or anything else) hits me, I am covered very generously by my own policy. Considering the circumstances surrounding the incident reported by the OP, it may be worth it to those who are concerned about this possibility to check into the cost and practicality of adding this "Uninsured/Underinsured Motorist" addition to their policy.

Just curious--

What states is it where even liability insurance is optional? I'd move there in a heartbeat.

I'm paying up the @$$ for liability only, minimum coverage insurance and it's still $100+ a month on the account of some dumbass ricer who's wrecked his (or her) fourth car in a year which then causes the insurance companies to profile anyone < 25 as high risk. Nevermind that under 25's are the single demographic LEAST able to pay ridiculous insurance rates.

I have no speeding tickets on my record, no DUI's, no wrecks of any kind. Not even a fender-bender. No, I haven't every hit any trees or poles. (Knock on wood.) Come close a couple times though. And I've still paid out more than my car's worth in insurance in just three years.

Sorry Folks, it's been awhile since I was back here. Work has been killing me and I try to spend the little off time with my son.

I'm fine, THe truck will get repaired, just not today. Probably in the next few weeks. I just need to make arrangements for another vehicle and I haven't had time to get to the rental office.

Other than that, everything else is cool.

TN used to not require insurance, but it does now.

Maybe some other southern state.

Just curious--

What states is it where even liability insurance is optional? I'd move there in a heartbeat

I go the other way, I'm with MaxxMPG on this one. I'm tired of paying out for insurance to cover my injuries/damages when the other guy is at fault and does not carry enough insurance. If I had my way no one would be allowed to collect more in damages from someone than they were carrying in the way of insurance in case they were the ones at fault. My logic is that if they are unwilling to make sure I am compensated when they are at fault then they should not expect me to pay them if I am at fault.

Ford Man- that is rough. Chronic pain is extremely hard to deal with, and there is no really good medical treatment for most cases. If there is a decent it always requires insurance- extremely good insurance- and you usually aren't fully covered for extensive rehab that lasts years. The "legit" pain clinics are extremely expensive and frequently offer less than satisfactory , but very lucrative therapies. The dodgy "pain pill clinics" actually offer "pills" that work, but once again they are very expensive, you develope tolerance, and you go into a nasty withdrawal when the Feds come in and close them down. The family Dr. frequently is the best bet; he can give you enough analgesia to get by. Chronic pain is one of the toughest problems-only no good choices.

My wife is on disability- autoimmune condition that attacked the arteries that "feed" her l feet, legs,eyes, hands, arms etc. She couldn't walk for several months, but it doing much better now.She has a fair amount of wierd nerve pain- like a diabetic. I've learned more about chronic disability than I ever wanted to.

Hey, where is the OP?? Yes,I'm always suspicious.

Charlie

I do have a pain clinic that I go to where they have tried many methods to reduce the pain, but about the only thing that has done any good at all is strong narcotic pain relievers and even using them my pain level on a scale of 0-10 still normally stays in the 6-8 range. Prior to going to the pain clinic I went through physical therapy for months and went to several doctors and surgeons trying to find someone to do something to help relieve the pain. My family physician finally sent me to this pain clinic and they have done more for relieving the pain than anything or anyone else. On top of the chronic pain since I had my accident I have been diagnosed with severe depression and have to take lots of anti depressants just to keep me going and not giving up completely. I think a lot of the depression set in right after having the accident and not being able to work and maintain the lifestyle I was used to and also having to fight for 5 years in order to get my disability approved. I have a son that is 17 and I often think of all of the experiences that my disability has taken away from him and the things that he has missed out on because I either can't do certain things or don't feel like doing them. I do have good medical insurance through my wife's employer, but even with good insurance the medical costs can be astronomical.

I'm glad to hear that your wife is doing better now, because no one understands what it is like to be in pain 100% of the time unless they have actually experienced it themselves.

Ford man- the old standby - an opiate - is still frequently the best choice for chronic pain. In general all the things that have been tried- PT, talk therapy ,"think" cognitive therapy, electrical stimulation gadgets , acupuncture ,heat therapy and a host of other things - work in just a small percentage of patients. They- the other therapies - fill the pockets of someone , but they just don't work as well as the opiates. Opiates have problems(addiction, constipation , lethargy , cloud your judgement etc), but in general they aren't as toxic as Aleve(kidney, heart) or tylenol (liver, kidney). They are cheap - a big plus for a chronic problem. The main problem for patients is the fear of being suddenly cut off from the relief ,and to be sent into withdrawal. You are lucky you found the right clinic.

Hope it works out for you-even if you drive a FORD. We have a 1998 Suburban(206,500 miles) and a 2006 Prius. Just kidding. Good luck-Charlie

Fordman i have had pain and disabilities most of my life, but 6-8 level all the time? even with meds? I can't even comprehend what that is like! You must have a strong faith that gets you through that every day. I don't know if i could do it.
I pray you find some relief!

Michael

I too live with pain since my injuries I sustained when in the military years ago. You would be amazed at how your body actually becomes adjusted to a particular pain level over the years. It doesn't really go away, it just becomes something you live with. It becomes a part of you. What I initially thought of as a 7-8 scale pain level after my major injuries were dealt with and recouperated from now after nearly 10 years is just a major annoyance at times but something I have learned to work around and live with. The pain I feel now is nothing compared to the pain I felt before. My threshold has risen greatly over the years.

I too live with pain since my injuries I sustained when in the military years ago. You would be amazed at how your body actually becomes adjusted to a particular pain level over the years. It doesn't really go away, it just becomes something you live with. It becomes a part of you. What I initially thought of as a 7-8 scale pain level after my major injuries were dealt with and recouperated from now after nearly 10 years is just a major annoyance at times but something I have learned to work around and live with. The pain I feel now is nothing compared to the pain I felt before. My threshold has risen greatly over the years.

i can totally relate, though perhaps not on the same scale.... i had a knee replacement 2-1/2 years ago, and it was supposed to relieve the pain of my poor arthritic knees. i no longer have the arthritis pain, but the pain and discomfort from the surgery has never really gone away. i have seen the surgeon several times, gotten a second opinion, did more PT, and there seems to be no solution and i have been told i have to live with it.

i am sure the pain is not as intense as what you probably deal with, but it does make me aware of it on a daily basis......we learn to adapt, but i don't always like it.

Big aside - but for those with chronic neck pain soreness/spasms - I stumbled across something that I didn't expect to work , but it did. About 15 years ago ,I tried home cervical traction. It is the type you stick under your mattress/boxspring , not the doorway "hang "yourself one. I'm sure the hang yourself in the doorway one would work as well or better , but it is less comfortable . I have used it everyday-with just 8-10 lbs-for the last 15 years. The chronic soreness with periodic spasms has largely disappeared. I had it from summer of 1969-1993. It was a life changing sort of pain. Now the 3 cervical vertebra and their discs that are "diseased" have more or less "fused" themselves together , so they don't really move much. The lack of movement prevents the diseased bone "spurs" from compressing the spinal nerves. Of course, years ago I learned to not move my neck.

The above sort of thing has/and is used on lower backs, but not in a DIY home version. My suspicion is that it it hard to get a good "grip" on your hips (the way the cervical one can grip your head/chin) and you need a helper to suspend the much, much heavier weight-100lbs maybe?? that is required to pull the lumbar vertebra apart. The office versions do it in pull release cycles , and no doubt it is expensive ($150 treatment -rank guess). If I had chronic back pain I would find a way to put together DIY version. Those "boots" inversion boots , that hung you upside down from a bar would do almost the same thing, I think , but there are obvious problems with them (you have to be athletic, not overweight ,and it will break your neck if they suddenly fail.

I'm more or less free from chronic neck pain- lucked out I guess. It was a nasty , depressing 20+ years. My wife now has the diabetic like leg pain , and the morning and evening headaches/nausea from Cellcept - her medication (an immunosuppressing drug usually used with transplants). She is doing pretty well.

My message is that occasionally you stumble across something that works, I guess. Most of the stuff along the way borders on a ripoff (even when well intentioned). The talk therapy for chronic pain -usually in groups with a $100+ day cost - might help a little , but I had/have no faith that it is worth the $$, since once it "stops" you revert. Frankly, the practioners think it works , they are not pure ripoff artists, but I have grave doubts since they have a huge financial incentives to see what they want to see. They brag about getting folks off opiates , but they self select by running off the ones who aren't responding to their therapy. " If you complete the programs, you will be drug free.". "You quit,so you don't count in our numbers." It is never, "when we cut your Vicodin you quit because our program wasn't stopping your back pain."

There just isn't a good treatment for chronic pain -just not too bad treatments but addicting/tolerance inducing treatments/ potential withdrawal syndrome inducing , or useless treatments .

Running wide here, sorry.
Charlie
PS -Exercise , if you can do it -it being anything- works. Walking, bicycle ,stationary bike ,swimming -anything works to some extent. I won't make the endorphin claim -not really so firmly proved to be the reason exercise works- but it does work. It isn't a cure , but it is free ,and at worse , harmless (within reason of course).

PPS -JonhMcD 348 -We/me were right on the edge of impugning your story. I'm always suspicious, just my nature. Glad you returned. Where do you live? How did this Prius owner get away with no insurance? Did he buy-get the insurance card- and then drop? Lotta folks have $$ problems , but usually the loan company will jump on folks who drop the insurance. I suspect they can actually take the payment and apply it to insurance instead of to the loan balance. They write the loan agreement, so it is waaaaay in their favor.

...everything else is cool.
John, great to hear that, and glad to hear you're posting again. BTW, we share the same birthday. :bananapartyhat: I'm sure this year's wasn't your happiest, but next year's ought to be better! :)

I guess I'm not so certain as some other posters your accident wasn't caused by hypermiling. I see definitions of drafting on this site, although they advise extreme caution; nevertheless, if hypermilers really want to discourage it it needs to be strongly indicated by members of the site. To my mind, drafting ought never to be an option. IMHO! Again, welcome back!

I may not have chronic pain but I have lower back and neck pain. Sitting down or staying still for longer periods of time is pure agony.

When they tell you to sit up straight, they mean it...

I guess I'm not so certain as some other posters your accident wasn't caused by hypermiling. I see definitions of drafting on this site, although they advise extreme caution; nevertheless, if hypermilers really want to discourage it it needs to be strongly indicated by members of the site. To my mind, drafting ought never to be an option. IMHO! Again, welcome back!

I'm "strongly indicating" it -- don't draft!!

I'm "strongly indicating" it -- don't draft!!

Anyone who reads through the forums will quickly learn that CleanMPG members do not recommend drafting, and will strongly urge people not to even try it. As Wayne notes, driving in heavy traffic reveals that 98% of the motoring public is drafting/tailgating simply because they cannot/will not leave themselves a buffer. When someone cuts in front of you, the result is that you are indeed drafting until you coast down enough to restore the buffer.

Many new members will read the "Beating the EPA" article and conclude that because a technique is defined in the article, it is encouraged or recommended. They miss the text stating that it is not recommended and there is a huge safety risk.

There are articles published that detail research concluding that smoking improves short term memory. Does that mean the doctors are recommending that you start smoking? Not in the least. They are just stating the results of their research, and including the additional text that smoking causes damage to every other major system in the body.

Note to anyone reading this who thinks that drafting is a great idea and a sure way to vastly improve FE - Spend an hour here and read some posts that deal with the topic. For every newbie who claims it's the greatest thing since the curling iron, there are a dozen other long-time hypermilers who have determined that it is not practical, as the trucks are all moving too fast or too erratically (and right-lane low-speed driving is the real secret to great FE ), and there is no measurable benefit in light of the vast increase in the chance of a serious collision.

That being said, get in the right lane and slow down, and enjoy the safe and legal traffic side draft , where your car's "air speed" ends up lower as you cruise along in a gust of wind created by all the speeders blasting by in the next lane.

Showbizk,

You are probably seeing stuff from two years ago but maybe this will clarify:

WE DON'T ENDORSE DRAFTING IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM

If it's necessary to elaborate, let me know. :p

I may not have chronic pain but I have lower back and neck pain. Sitting down or staying still for longer periods of time is pure agony.

When they tell you to sit up straight, they mean it...

My back is where my chronic pain is located. MRI's and CAT scans have shown that I have 7 bulged discs throughout my back, 4 in the lower and 3 in the upper, but they say they are inoperative. It varies but the lower back and the area around my upper back and shoulder blades is the worst. I sometimes have pain radiating into my legs. arms and around into my ribs. If you have back and neck pain then just imagine it all of the time. There have been times when I would hurt so bad that I have stayed in the bed for a week at a time and for the first several years it wasn't uncommon for me to spend all day in bed sometimes a few days a week. I have also experienced the neck pain. Once for several months I couldn't turn my head around far enough to look behind me when backing the car. I had to use rear view mirrors and turn my body at the waist to see behind me.

I don't know why or how the driver got through without getting or having insurance. I know he got alot of tickets from teh Trooper and I'm sure there's a court date involved somewhere in their future. I haven't heard anything on my side. The trucks actually in the shop now. Sorry, no pics prior, I just never gave it much thought, I was too mad to think about stuff like that. The Highway patrol took plenty though.

I live in Lakeland, FL and don't really get on this site much. I'm far from being a hyper Miler. I'm pretty much Hypo at my best I get 12mpg on long interstate trips. I first logged on here to find ways to help stretch my mileage as best I can so since I can't really be close to the same league as you guys, I just don't get on here that much.

thanks for stopping back, john. i think we just thought there was the possibility of a person just dropping in and leaving one post just to get us up in arms. i am glad to see there's a real person there. i hope you recover from the accident and the damage to the car isn't beyond repair. sorry for any doubts i might have expressed.

Crazy the number of people from Lakeland I have met this year.

You have my utmost sympathy. Back pain is something I wouldn't wish on anyone.

No problem. I dont take thing personally too often. I know there's Trolls out there on the net who love for nothing more than to start things and run away. It was just bad timing on my original post time and like I said before, I lurk here on occassion but don't post often as I really have nothing to contribute at present.

I never developed the awful habit of tailgating,but i admit to drafting one time to see what it was about.Screw the fe numbers,it is not for me.Remember dad saying if a car he was in got too close hey-if you want to stop them and ride with them we can do that,if not get off their a$$! Been known to repeat that a few times.....

...hey-if you want to stop them and ride with them we can do that,if not get off their a$$!

LOL! I really like that!!!!

WE DON'T ENDORSE DRAFTING IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM




LOL! Indeed! I couldn't have said it better, myself! Thanks, Delta!

Just curious--

What states is it where even liability insurance is optional? I'd move there in a heartbeat.

I'm paying up the @$$ for liability only, minimum coverage insurance and it's still $100+ a month on the account of some dumbass ricer who's wrecked his (or her) fourth car in a year which then causes the insurance companies to profile anyone < 25 as high risk. Nevermind that under 25's are the single demographic LEAST able to pay ridiculous insurance rates.

I have no speeding tickets on my record, no DUI's, no wrecks of any kind. Not even a fender-bender. No, I haven't every hit any trees or poles. (Knock on wood.) Come close a couple times though. And I've still paid out more than my car's worth in insurance in just three years.


That's just the cost of being inexperienced, we all went through it. I have a 17 year old son that has been driving just over a year with no tickets or accidents and I am paying betwwen $700-$800 every 6 months for liability on him alone. The insurance on him is more than the liability costs of three other cars and a motorcycle (almost double) I have insured, but they have an experienced driver rating.

WE DON'T ENDORSE DRAFTING IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM


If the car manufacturers would properly design cars with a suitably low Cd, then there would be little FE benefit to drafting. With my car, drafting provides so little FE benefit that its not even worth trying and when coasting on a road with any amount of downslope, I'll start rapidly overtaking them and have to apply braking, negating any slight FE benefit from the drafting.

That's the thing I hate about trying to coast to a point when I'm driving my truck. I live in a area that has quite a few down slopes that I usually take on my way home. I can almost promise you that there will be someone ahead of me that will ride their brake the entire ride down the hill. It drives me nuts sometimes. Late in the evening, when I get off work or in the wee hours of the night, I can shift into neutral just before I crest the top and by the time I am at the bottom of the hill, I can easily gain 20mph and be able to coast the nearly 1.5 miles to my turn and still be doing 30mph.

Agree that that's bad in a conventional car, but get behind an
experienced Prius driver on that same downhill and you'll see the
brake lights on all the way down -- collecting 30 amps of regen
goodness all the way, and arriving with stone-cold brake parts
at the bottom!
.
_H*

I can almost promise you that there will be someone ahead of me that will ride their brake the entire ride down the hill. It drives me nuts sometimes. Late in the evening, when I get off work or in the wee hours of the night, I can shift into neutral just before I crest the top and by the time I am at the bottom of the hill, I can easily gain 20mph and be able to coast the nearly 1.5 miles to my turn and still be doing 30mph.

When this happens make the best of it, try leaving the truck in gear, foot off the gas, and ride fuel cut at least to the bottom of the hill. That nets you something at least.

Hopefully the 20mph you gain on the downhill doesn't take you over the PSL? If so, try cresting the hill at a lower speed so the gain on the downhill puts you at the PSL. That may also help you avoid issues with traffic riding their brakes.

My truck weighs in at nearly 8000lbs. I canstart off at 30mph and end up at nearly 60 by the time I'm at teh end of the hill and use the momentum to continue the coast about 1 mile beyond or more until I get to my turn and be back to 25-30. THe PSL there is 45 so I end up 15 over and 15 under by the time it's done. Granted, I can only do that in the wee hours of the morning when coming home off call and no one else is around but you get the idea. During the day, I usually end up behind someone of (extended years) who usually drives well below posted limits and is intent on burning up their brakes by maintaining 35-45mph on the long down hill trek.

Tha'ts just the way it is. If I notice them a few turns ahead, I'll try to give them alot more room in advance of me so it will allow me a little glide time on the slope. Sometimes, it works, sometimes not so much.