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Just wondering what you all think of this...is it a myth?

http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/586/the-3000-mile-oil-change-myth

I agree. The 2,500 or 3,000 mile change is usually perpetuated by those who profit by it. It is a waste of money, as well as, bad for the environment. Modern engines usually don't require that frequency. You should always go by your car manual, and mine say 5,000 miles, but I usually go to 7,000 because synthecs tend to have more longevity.

It's not a myth!

If you do ALL really short trips, drive very few miles a year, drive in dusty conditions, cold weather, etc at the same time. These would be the severe conditions as stated in the owners manual. Some vehicles actually have this short of an interval recommended.

Actually the owners manual is probably pretty accurate or even conservative, for most normal real world driving though 3000 miles is too short. If you really want to know, look up Oil Analysis in the yellow pages and send a sample to them. It's not expensive and you'll probably be suprised at how long the oil can really go.

The vast majority of us don't know the real condition of our oil because we don't have any accurate way to monitor it's condition. Some use color, miles or time or all three which is really just a guess as to condition since these do not actually measure oil condition. Mostly though the factory recommendation is pretty good, make up your own interval if you fall between "Severe" and "Normal" and you'll be fine.

We have 5 generators at work that use about 100 gallons of oil each. Mfr recommended interval is one year. Based upon two $20 oil analysis data we change at three years, saving a bunch of money, downtime and petroleum.

Your mileage may (will) vary. Measure it.

My manual calls for 7,500 miles, or 6,000 (I think) for severe conditions. Neither is anywhere close to the oft-quoted 3000. Again, look at the source. It makes THEM more money this way. :rolleyes:

There was a test a few years ago with New York taxicabs. The oil (conventional, not synth) didn't start breaking down measurably until 6000 miles. That's the most severe duty I can imagine for an engine.

Agreed. The owner's manual in my 2000 Accord said 3750-7500, depending on conditions. I don't have a manual for the Civic, so I don't know.

This kinds ties in with a thing i read a while back about this company, Frantz: http://www.wefilterit.com/, that makes filters that filter the oil completely and result in the user never having to replace the oil, only what is burned in the engine and what remains in the filter when removed. The filters are made from rolls of toilet paper which is odd but if the end result is less oil being used then that has to be a good thing. Anybody here use them?

ollie

I've used toilet paper - yes.

Couldn't resist.

I hate to admit this, but I used to work at Enterprise Rent-A-Car. They always used the highest number on the manual. The computers would prompt us when a car comes in OVER that mileage. Which means, the computer would not even inform us when we rent a car with 7,499 miles since its last oil change to the guy who will have it for a week and is doing a cross country trip. In addition to that, Enterprise is known to have a lack of cars available at times, we would rent out cars due for a LOFR (Lube Oil Filter Rotation) again and again. I would say in my 3 month stint there as a management trainee I saw about a dozen cars with over 10,000 miles since their last LOFR. The record I saw was 17,000. Anyway, the cars rarely had problems, and the problems they did have were not ones that would be caused by viscosity break down. So, I do believe this 3,000 mile oil change is a myth.

I've used toilet paper - yes.

Couldn't resist.
Yeah, that was too easy....:D

ollie

I remember an article in one of the car mags (Car and Driver or Road and Track) that covered high mileage cars. They questioned the drivers about what they were doing to get such high mileage. One guy with a Volkswagen Beetle said he simply added a new quart of oil each time the dipstick showed he was a quart low. Amazing, since the Beetle of the day did not have an oil filter. Yet, he had over 500,000 miles on his bug. I would not recommend that at all - but it worked for his car (and was probably very unique).

On the other hand, there were some who changed the oil like clockwork, either by a time or by a mileage basis. Not one of them suggested that they changed their oil by conducting an oil analysis. Too bad, because that can tell you a lot, and any safe savings of oil is a big savings for both us and our environment.

Two of my cars have an "Oil Life Monitor". The manual says "Change the oil when the CHANGE OIL SOON appears in the display, or once a year, whichever comes first."

The monitor has suggested oil changes at about 6500-7000 miles, depending on the season of the year (counts down faster in winter), and length of trips (fewer cold starts makes the countdown slower). This is in a low-tech low-rev pushrod V6 engine, and I suspect that some of the high-rev smaller engines can't go quite as far.

For cars that have engines that are sludge-prone (Toyota, VW/Audi, and the Chrysler 2.7), use synthetic oil and change it more often. If you use conventional oil in the sludge cars, you should adopt what is called the "Hanes Schedule" - where you change the oil whenever you change your underwear.

If you use conventional oil in the sludge cars, you should adopt what is called the "Hanes Schedule" - where you change the oil whenever you change your underwear.

I certainly wouldn't wait THAT long!:p

I certainly wouldn't wait THAT long!:p

...Gives new meaning to the informal farewell - "Smell ya later!" :eek:

I'm at a point where I change the oil and filter in the 2000 Jetta TDI every 10,000 miles, using Shell Synthetic Rotella T 5W-40. This is diesel engine oil for heavyweight trucks, and it does just fine in the Jetta. Plus you can buy it by the gallon at Waliworld.
Now the 2000 Altima, on the other hand, I go somewhere between 5-10,000. I'll probably change it out around 7,500 with Mobil 1 5W-30 synthetic w/filter. I would use a 20 weight oil, but I can get this stuff by the gallon so it's cheaper by about ~$5. I Hi-Mile the car (avg. ~33mpg) so it doesn't see much abuse, other than a WAI.
But I agree; we, as a country, change our oil a bit too much. If you've ever changed the oil in an old motorcycle, it would give you a whole new respect for the quality of the oil that comes out of your car!

My Mazda Tribute manual says 5k-7k
Same engine in the Ford Escape says 3k-5k

Interesting hu. The engine runs better in the Mazda then in a Ford? Hmmmm.


I figure there is/was truth to the 3k oil change. When oil was of a lower quality and/or if your driving conditions merit 3k. Like excessive stop and starts, dusty roads, or lots of pulling heavy loads.

Back in the early 70's I was just a not so wee nipper of about 12. Dad had a 1966 Impala with a 327 engine backed by the infamous 2 speed hydraglide. He bought it new when the local dealer was doing the fall clear out in '66. He took it for it's first breakin oil change at 2000 - 2500 miles then only changed the filter every once in a while after that. When the oil got low he just kept adding. In 1974 I think it was, we were going to use this car to go from Calgary to Victoria and back for hoildays so he "treated" the car to a full oil change, grease etc at about 75000 miles. I still have a clear memory of leaning over the front seat between my parents while Dad was passing a couple of slow moving trucks and watching the oil light come on. It seems the car couldn't handle being treated nice after so many years of abuse, so it went from using very little oil to a quart every 70 miles, just because of this oil change. The sludge holding the engine together must have got cleaned out by the new oil. So he moral of my little tale is never change the oil.........or is it change the oil more frequently than every 75000 miles...:confused: :D

kryten

I usually change the oil in the Elantra when it starts breaking down, which is roughly 7-10k miles. How do I know? Something in the drivetrain starts to chatter when I hit that point. Valves, rocker arms? Dunno, but it pings on each revolution of the cam shaft. I think I'm going to give the fully synthetics a try this time, and I'll change it myself.

figure there is/was truth to the 3k oil change. When oil was of a lower quality and/or if your driving conditions merit 3k. Like excessive stop and starts, dusty roads, or lots of pulling heavy loads.


abcdpeterson: While I'm driving around my part of the world trying to make enough coin to keep body and soul together, I listen to a lot of old time radio. Included in my favorites is "The Whistler". For a long time this show was sponsered by Signal Oil so during the commercial breaks the message was use Signal gas and get your car serviced by your friendly Signal dealer. One of the lead in lines was "has it been 5000 miles since your wheel bearings have been regreased" always gave me a chuckle. If your car had to go in for service that frequently I think it really would seem to spend more time in the shop than on the road.:D

kryten

My '06 HHR has a DIC (digital information center) which tells oil life. Its first oil change (freebe from the dealer) was at 4000 miles and the DIC said 40% oil life. I did the second myself with Mobil 1 at 9000 miles and 38% oil life. I've been doiing them myself around 7000 mile interval with Mobil 1. The HHR is one of the easiest cars to do your own oil change. The manual states change the oil once per year or when the DIC tells you to. I've done four oil changes and he car now has 36000 miles on the clock.

It all depends on your driving conditions as to the frequency of changes.

Well I'm glad to hear of improvements in technology that will allow actual monitoring of the oils condition. It would be interesting to try driving several identical cars with the monitoring system and see how they compare on different schedules....say chaning filter & adding oil every 3/5k; same as 1, but with premium filters; same as 1, but with synth oil; same as 1 but premium filters and synth oil; and finally...no maint other than changing as recomended by the system.

Why is only 60% of oil recycled? Where does the other 40% go?

For a long time this show was sponsered by Signal Oil so during the commercial breaks the message was use Signal gas and get your car serviced by your friendly Signal dealer. One of the lead in lines was "has it been 5000 miles since your wheel bearings have been regreased" always gave me a chuckle. If your car had to go in for service that frequently I think it really would seem to spend more time in the shop than on the road.:D
kryten

Hey ya wheel bearings... I will have to take a look in my manual. I don’t think it mentions anything about wheel bearings…

I have re-packed wheel bearings on old cars in the past. but only cus I took them apart for some other reason. I don't think I have ever heard of anyone having one go bad.

Hey ya wheel bearings... I will have to take a look in my manual. I don’t think it mentions anything about wheel bearings…

I have re-packed wheel bearings on old cars in the past. but only cus I took them apart for some other reason. I don't think I have ever heard of anyone having one go bad.

I'll go out on a limb and suggest that those bearing were re-greased through zerks (grease nipples). No re-packing necessary, at least at Signal's suggested 5000 mile interval.

These are the same zerks that abound on old farm machinery, where some bearings must be greased daily. My first car (before buying anything with my own money) had four zerks installed by the dealership. Memory of that era is now fuzzy, but they were probably on the wheel bearings. After striking out on my own and getting the car serviced elsewhere, a couple shops noticed the zerks and dutifully pulled out their grease guns.

Sealed bearings are better.

OK let me share some of what I have learned on oil

Oil end of life is normally determined by 4 items:

TBN, A measure of the additive package remaining life
Contamination from Coolant
Contamination from Insolubles
Oil sheared out of grade


Other things can also happen, but normally the above are the big hitters. All 4 can be measured with testing by a Lab.

What works for some is to find a decent quality oil ($2 to $3/qt) and run it say 5 or 6k (less if severer duty or short trips). Change the oil and send a sample in for testing. The test results will tell if you exceeded the oil's life or you dumped it too soon. After a few cycles of changes and testing, as long as you stay with that oil and your driving stays about the same you got it licked and have verified maximizing the oil life as a function of miles driven.

IMO All else is just a guess!

Labs
I use Blackstone Labs, but Caterpillar tests as well. A test will set you back $25 to $30

I wonder if hypermiling causes less wear on oil with the lower rpms?

Ok, I stopped reading after page 1 of this thread.

The oil analysis is a good idea, I was going to do one through blackstone labs, but it cost about $20. To put 4.8 quarts of synthetic and a new oil filter on my car costs about $30 to DIY. So I just never got around to doing an analysis.

I'll go out on a limb and suggest that those bearing were re-greased through zerks (grease nipples). No re-packing necessary, at least at Signal's suggested 5000 mile interval.

These are the same zerks that abound on old farm machinery, where some bearings must be greased daily. My first car (before buying anything with my own money) had four zerks installed by the dealership. Memory of that era is now fuzzy, but they were probably on the wheel bearings. After striking out on my own and getting the car serviced elsewhere, a couple shops noticed the zerks and dutifully pulled out their grease guns.

Sealed bearings are better.

Years of working with industrial electric motors has taught me that overgreasing the bearings is worse than neglect. The best possible lube for ball bearings is oil mist.

Years of working with industrial electric motors has taught me that overgreasing the bearings is worse than neglect.
On electric motors, isn't that only because the excess lube gets on things in the motor that it should not as opposed to hurting a bearing or bushing.:rolleyes:

When our cars used to run carberators the manufactors would intencialy set them with a high air to fuel ratio in some cases 12:1 or even 10:1 this was so that as the carb broke in and air leaks around things such as the butterfly shaft would be compinsated for and you would not need service for a little longer also the carb had a pump in it that would douse the air stream with excessive fuel to help excelerate and with cold starts.
With all this extra fuel in the mix it would pass by the piston rings and contaminate the oil quickly.
Now today all engines are fuel injected and are optimized for cold and warm starts and run close looped control with a vast array of sensors.Lower compression ratios lower octane fuel, and as some one else said earler in this post the oil is better refined today.
This all leads to less contaminates in the oil over time and with most all cars now having overdrive gears the engine turns less then it used to about 25%
It seems to me the main end result of hypermiling is to have the ice rotate as little as possible, my guess is that dumping oil that is still in good working order is a very big waste.
and yes the dealers make money on the oil changes and while your here why don't we do an injecter cleaning or flush your radiator rotate your tires relax in our nice clean waiting room .
The EV1 only required tire rotation never needing the services an ice needs and it was killed but thats another story.

Hello everyone !
I am new to the forum.
I am an Indepent Amsoil Dealer.
The 3000 mile oil change myth was shattered in 1972 by Amsoil when they were the first in the world to come out with an api approved chemically engioneered synthetic for automotive use. When it made it's debut it was guaranteed for 25,000 mile or once a year oil change.
It has taken the world 35 years to wake up to the superior lubrication and filtration that Amsoil offers to each of us to eliminate the 3000 mile or 3 month oil change myth.

Here is a website address from a parts courier, take a look at his maintenance log. He is running the original automatic transmission at 1 million miles, the engine gave it up at 930,000 miles. www.millionmilechevy.com

If you would like to research further my website is donsoil.com
Thank you!
Have a great day!
Don

Back in the early 70's I was just a not so wee nipper of about 12. Dad had a 1966 Impala with a 327 engine backed by the infamous 2 speed hydraglide. He bought it new when the local dealer was doing the fall clear out in '66. He took it for it's first breakin oil change at 2000 - 2500 miles then only changed the filter every once in a while after that. When the oil got low he just kept adding. In 1974 I think it was, we were going to use this car to go from Calgary to Victoria and back for hoildays so he "treated" the car to a full oil change, grease etc at about 75000 miles. I still have a clear memory of leaning over the front seat between my parents while Dad was passing a couple of slow moving trucks and watching the oil light come on. It seems the car couldn't handle being treated nice after so many years of abuse, so it went from using very little oil to a quart every 70 miles, just because of this oil change. The sludge holding the engine together must have got cleaned out by the new oil. So he moral of my little tale is never change the oil.........or is it change the oil more frequently than every 75000 miles...:confused: :D

kryten

Can't explain that one either, but my brother bought a 68 impala 307 from a guy that never changed the oil and it also didn't burn oil. First thing for him to do was change the oil and as you experienced the thing started burning oil more like 40 miles to the quart?

On electric motors, isn't that only because the excess lube gets on things in the motor that it should not as opposed to hurting a bearing or bushing.:rolleyes:

Have you ever felt how hot the ball bearing housing can get on a 200 hp 3600 rpm motor that has way too much grease in the bearing housing?

Have you ever felt how hot the ball bearing housing can get on a 200 hp 3600 rpm motor that has way too much grease in the bearing housing?Most the 200Hp to 1500hp Motors I work with are force oil lubricated. The bigger ones have oil coolers. They are almost all bushings, not roller bearing design

So no, I have not. Tell be about the application and what you know.

Paul -

How often have you been changing your oil? I have been going by the oil life indicator. I wonder if I need to change it sooner. I know, oil analysis but I don't wanna! :p

When I had my Peterbilt I was changing oil every 12000 miles give or take. In this distance I would have to add 1 gallon at about 8000 miles. At 12000 it was real close to needing another top up. A couple of times due to not being able to get home I had to stretch it out to 16000 miles. When I had to do this I was adding 1 gallon every 2000 miles. Apparently with the Cat engine I had in it the oil was breaking down just after 12000 miles. This story may or may not transfer to a car.

kryten

Paul -

How often have you been changing your oil? I have been going by the oil life indicator. I wonder if I need to change it sooner. I know, oil analysis but I don't wanna! :p
4500 miles for 1st
2nd will be a 10k on the button and than test to see what I left on the table.

This is my take on this issue.

Being that the oil really goes by how much the engine is used, as a hypermiler, I believe that oil change shouldnt be measured by miles driven, but by the amt of fuel used. It's just harder to keep up with that so I figured I'd use an equation to spit out avg. miles driven for a certain amt of fuel used. Effectively, the same amt of fuel I used for driving 3000 miles, I use about the same to go 6000 miles now, so That should be my starting point. Since the oil doesnt really start breaking down until twice that amt of time in high stress driving, I could effectively double that to 12000 miles btw oil change If I wanna get real dirty. I think I'll probably go to the 10000 mile interval. :)

I used to change everything at 5K (with a synthetic) because that was an interval that was easy for me to remember.

Oil testing makes a lot of sense. Is there a way to do it in a car without dumping the oil?

I suspect that the Insight could go much longer than the Honda recommended intervals because mine spends so many miles coasting in FAS, and the rest of the time mostly at very light loads.

For those that go to dealers, dealers put on stickers that are usually based on the severe service intervals, or even shorter. I asked what severe conditions we had in this area (coastal CT, not offroad, mild winters) and they had no response. So now I rip off the stickers and do my own thing. I'd change it myself but I no longer have a garage, just a carport, but my friend has a lift so I may start imposing on him.

I always do my own changes, the dealers use the cheapest stuff. Stay away from FRAM filters and pennzoil. quaker state has issues with some cars but really good in others. or you can get the quaker state synthetic, that's ok. I just get mobil 0w -30, that should be good for 10k miles, So I'll change mine in 7000 miles. so not only does hypermiling save gas, it reduces my oil changes by a 3rd! that's another $90 bucks per year. Granted I save a lot in every other department such as wear in brakes and all that. I'll probably put all this money saved from hypermiling into a savings account as my downpayment on a house.

Oil testing makes a lot of sense. Is there a way to do it in a car without dumping the oil?

Yes there is a way
Cheap way is small hose down dip stick and syringe it out.

...For those that go to dealers, dealers put on stickers that are usually based on the severe service intervals, or even shorter. ... So now I rip off the stickers and do my own thing. ...

I leave those stickers in as a quick reference of the previous oil change, not as the target for the next change. Every place I've used marks them with the same 3 months / 3000 miles increment, regardless of what the owners manual recommends for severe use. But sometimes the ink bleaches away in the sunlight.

But always check the new sticker for accuracy. One quick-lube place marked the sticker for just 300 miles, so I promptly ripped it out. I've since weaned myself from those places, except for unplanned situations while traveling (e.g. family issue adds 1800 miles to trip, or -40F weather comes in while engine has too-heavy oil).

Yes there is a way
Cheap way is small hose down dip stick and syringe it out.

Thanks!!

In a sump system as in auto engines, they are designed to drain to a low point (drain plug). If you suction the oil out of the dipstick tube, the solids settled out near the drain won't be removed. (if there are solids)

I use Amsoil extended interval filters and Amsoil 0-20w oil for a change at 25,000 miles or 1 year. Before the Ea filter came out, I changed the filter at 15,000 and oil and filter at 30,000. Their product is designed for this service. I drive about 35,000 miles yearly so you can see the cost benefit even with the higher price of the Amsoil product.

At work, oil in pulverizing mills is targeted for at least 9 years of use. This is a an extreme service piece of equipment that runs 24/7. We have a monthly analysis and the filter differential is monitored. The filter is 12 micron absolute and the Klüber synthetic is used.

What if i am ice off coasting 75% of the time and rarely above 2500 rpm the other 25%?

Lightfoot:

My Peterbilt dealer had an oil analysis machine on site. They have a plunger cup type of thing that sucks oil out of the dipstick tube. They only need an ounce or two. Cost was around $20 last time I had it done. Only takes about 1/2 an hour which includes the time to get the sample. You can check the truck dealers around your area, I'm sure at least one of them would have a machine. They may look at you funny when you show up, but $20 is $20.;)

Kryten

There's a big truck stop on my commute and a truck dealer is right next door to it, so I'll check there.

Maybe I'll try dipstick analysis to see how long I can stretch Mobil 1 0-20 and then do an analysis of the oil oil at the change (getting a representative sample might be tough if stuff settles out).

As far as sludge goes, STM what's circulating and what is not are two different stories. Sludge might give a history of what happened to the engine? What's circulating may tell how the oil is doing and a bit about what's up with the engine?

Maybe I'll try dipstick analysis to see how long I can stretch Mobil 1 0-20 and then do an analysis of the oil oil at the change (getting a representative sample might be tough if stuff settles out).

If you use Blackstone Labs, they will send you the sample kit(s) for free.

The best way to collect the sample is to have the bottle ready and when on the lift, drop the plug and catch some in the bottle after it has run a little. Also, it's good to grab it when it's been run some so it all mixed up.

Good luck

Conventional oils today are so much better than even ten years ago. I know with my turbo four daily driver that is run under 3 miles each way on residential streets and rarely sees highway my M1 oil is shot by 5K miles. Yet my highway car gets a OCI once a year since it sees less than 2% city driving. Follow the manual if it says 5K miles under severe service change it every 5K miles. Just make sure you use a good quality conventional oil.

I can't wait to seem some results from Paul and then from lightfoot on the 0w-20(that is what I am running now)

Hey ya wheel bearings... I will have to take a look in my manual. I don’t think it mentions anything about wheel bearings…

I have re-packed wheel bearings on old cars in the past. but only cus I took them apart for some other reason. I don't think I have ever heard of anyone having one go bad.

I usually re-pack the wheel bearings when I change my rear brakes which is usually somewhere around every 100,000 miles. I had a rear wheel bearing go out on my '88 Escort when it had somewhere between 300,000-400,000 miles. The other rear bearings are still the original with 479,000+ miles on them. I have had to replace the front wheel bearings a few times in that length of time, but they are sealed bearings and I can't re-pack them.