Archives

Picked up the 1992 Civic Hatchback VX over the weekend. The car needed more work than what the ebay ad said. Not surprising I guess.

So I'm on I-90 in Indiana, and I start hearing a bump, bump, bump sound over the Thunk, thunk, thunk sound caused by the the rear tire with the bulge in it. The bumping soon turned into clunking then clattering so got off the toll road and limped to the nearest town which was Grainger IN. Remember now, it was the 4th of July.

I found a Advance Auto parts store that was actually open. I asked if they could fix my car. They said nope, but we have the axles. They gave me directions to a number of repair shops but all were closed on holiday. I went back and asked if I could change the axles in the parking lot. The manager says OK and lets me borrow tools. So I get out my Haynes manual and start following directions. I get to the part where you remove the axle nut. Holy hell! Those things aren't coming off. I also noticed that my warped rotors are dangerously thin and pieces of the brake material are missing.

So I go back in the store about to ask where I could find a motel. An older guy was getting parts for a repair and he asks if he can help. I said that he certainly could if he can help me install the axles. No problem he says but I only take cash. I had cash so no prob. Then I say, do you do brakes? He says no problem. Then I ask the clerk if he has rotors and brakes, he says no prob. So I buy the axles ($60 each) the rotors ($18 each) and the Pads ($22 each). Total was $190 minus the core.

So this guy Fred is a retired state corrections dept guy drives my car while I follow him in his van. 6 miles later we are at his house over the state line in MI. Over the next 3 hours I learn how to replace axles and install new rotors and pads. The worst part was removing the axle nuts. He had to get out the "Fire" wrench. He charged me $125 for his time and by noon I was back on the road again.

Spent so far:
$1800 for car
$110 for plane ticket
$325 for O2 sensor
$215 for muffler
$315 for axles and brakes

Total $2765. $1735 left over to spend on the body and paint. Hopefully the sale of the VX rims will pay for a cat if I need one.

What kind of mileage are you getting?:p

awesome, working with mechanics while he teaches how to work on your own car, i wish i had someone like that.

sounds like the VX is almost ready for its prime...

Well hopefully the engine won't be as beat as the rest of the car. That would suck if it's got engine problems too and you could only get 35-40mpg or so. Good luck with it, 15 year old cars can be an adventure. I should know; I had a 1988 Civic in 2003.

I had a look at the plugs and they are all colored very nicely. That leads me to believe that there are no compression or ring problems. I'm thinking that the bad O2 sensor killed the cat. I have a used one being sent to me for only the cost of shipping. The problem I have now is the main fuel relay which doesn't like to activate the fuel pump after every FAS. So I am avioding FAS until I get that fixed. I have adjusted my route for more highway to take advantage of the lean burn since I cant FAS. My FE has been in the low 60's as a result.

I hope your new car ultimately runs well in it's old age.

I keep thinking about what that 1988 CRX HF would be like if I'd treated it kindly (probably 350,000 miles in it's 18th year).

If it turns out to be bad, it has to be better than this VX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_%28nerve_agent%29) :eek:

Low 60's is still excellent! Glad to hear it sounds like the engine is healthy even after all these years. So how many miles are on it anyway?

Low 60's is still excellent! Glad to hear it sounds like the engine is healthy even after all these years. So how many miles are on it anyway?


Only 132k. Interior is very good condition. A few rust areas outside where you normally see them. I can fix those no problem. First I have to get the cat installed and get it inspected. Then the underbelly and Mobil 1 in the engine and transmisssion. Then it is time for bodywork.

Today I decided to drive completely without FAS. That included stop lights (Wayne is cringing now). The trip to work (not much traffic and short periods of idling) yielded 62.27 MPG. The drive home (more traffic and longer periods oof idling) was 56.62 MPG. The RT ave was 59.27.

I'm starting to get the hang of the lean burn on the VX. It feels strikingly familiar to the Insight lean burn. First, some info from the OBDI training manual.



The LAF (Lean air fuel) sensor can be used to detect AF ratios in a range from approx 12:1 to 22:1. These were used on the 92-95 VX and 96-98 HX. If an AF ratio richer than 12:1 is required, the ECU will go into open loop.



A good way to monitor AFR is to attach the positive lead of a DMM to the Pump Cell Control O2 lead and the negative DMM lead to the O2 reference voltage lead. This shifts the O2 output such that 0V is stoich, a negative reading is rich and a positive reading is lean. To test the LAF, when introducing propane to the intake would create a rich condition resulting in a reading of -1.3. To create a lean condition, you could disconnect one of the fuel injectors which would result in a 0.4V reading.



In practice, I have found that lean burn does indeed result on a reading of 0.4 to 0.5. That is similar to the reading that you woulld expect when you have one injector disconnected. I could then logically conclude that lean burn could reduce fuel consumption by as much as 25%.



Of course it takes time for the cat to warm up enough to enable lean burn mode. When starting cold, you will notice a reading of -0.77V. This is also what you would read if the LAF was disconnected, and similarly, you get the same reading when the LAF is dead. After a few minutes, the reading will oscillate between -2.0V to 0V. After another minute or so you will notice the reading stabilize around 0V and then climb to 0.40 to 0.45V during a lean burn cruise. During idle, the reading is cut in half to about 0.22V.



Lean burn on the VX has more range than on the Insight. I can climb even the steepest hill on my commute in 2nd gear and maintain lean burn mode. Moderate hills can be climbed in 3rd and more gradual hills in 4th. On the highway, lean burn mode can be held at speeds up to 65-70 MPH, much higher than the Insight. Once your vacuum drops below a certain point, it seems like VTEC kicks in and your instantaneous FE drops immediately by 1/3. For example, While climbing slight grade in 5th at 55MPH, I can hold 45MPG indefinately. When encountering a steep grade, you would open the throttle to hold your speed. As the injector pulse width reaches about 6.3ms before dropping out of lean burn. The instantaneous FE drops immediately to 30 MPG. This is very similar to what you would feel during a NOx purge in the Insight.



There is a downside to lean burn in that when you don't have it, the FE is worse than what i got with the Del Sol. And after a long engine off coast, the LAF has to warm up all over again. This means that I need to rethink my route to take advantage of lean burn. I am still learning the tricks and techniques and Im not doing to bad considering the fact that I have a bad fuel relay and I have stoppedengine off coasting. As soon as my relay arrives, I will try to push the VX to the limit. Until then, I will use the time to learn how to hypermile all over again.

That's an awesome discussion. But does the pulsewidth go to
6.3 ms while still *in* lean burn, or is that the not-lean-burn
width? That's almost exactly the injector time the Prius exhibits
when in highway cruise, with very little variation. And that
in theory isn't lean-burn but *should* at least be a high torque
scenario.
.
I've spent most of the day upended under the dash of the Prius,
doing another round of mods pre-Hybridfest. I'm thinking of
throwing together a stupid-simple integrator for the injector pulse
which I've already got into my panel, and get some ballpark idea
of percent-duty in realtime while driving. Might be instructive
to have it for an 1100 mile drive...
.
_H*

I find that the threshold is 6.3ms. I try to stay in the high 5's so as not to disturb the VTEC gods. When VTEC stage 2 kicks in, it wrecks havoc on gthe FE. It feels like a kick in the pants.

I have found that the VTEC-E engine in the VX has gobs more torque at low rpm's than the Del Sol. I'm driving around at 800 rpm in 5th with no lugging. Don't blame me, Im just doing what the upshift light tells me to do.

IIRC I told you that you would be at Hybridfest even though you didnt know it yet. I will be cool to compare notes.

Very interesting results so far. In my HX, it won't engage VTEC until 2700rpm, regardless of throttle position. Also I can run 4th gear as low as 1100rpm or so but 5th gear requires around 1300rpm to avoid lugging unfortunately. What tires do you have on your VX?

I have the HX wheels with the Potenza RE 92's. I guess that I should clarify that I am assuming that VTEC is kicking in because of the power surge. It may however be just transitioning lean burn mode to non lean burn mode. I guess I dont know how to tell for sure if it is in stage 2 VTEC. But if it is not TEC that I am feeling, then I haven't noticed a second surge of power that you would expect when VTEC kicks in. There is a solenoid that activates the VTEC. Maybe I sould monitor power going to the solenoid to see it it is VTEC or not.

Yeah, that would be one way to know for sure. I'm still jealous of your ability to spin the engine a good 30% lower than mine without lugging though!

Well the car only weighs 2094lbs.:D

Hi Dan:

___That was a hell of a story and made me glad I wasn’t driving her home!

___Does the VX have any kind of NOx purge while pushing lean-burn? With the CAT removed, its NOx is probably through the roof but maybe there was no feedback for NOx purge or if Honda even used a NOx Adsorber of some sort way back then?

Today I decided to drive completely without FAS. That included stop lights (Wayne is cringing now). The trip to work (not much traffic and short periods of idling) yielded 62.27 MPG. The drive home (more traffic and longer periods of idling) was 56.62 MPG. The RT ave was 59.27.
___Excellent FE for a car still being brought back to life … Just imagine what it will be when you get back to driving like you should be driving ;)

___The math on the LAF sounds about right. Leanburn cruise in the 5-speed at 50 mph is about 100 and the CVT based non-leanburn capable Insight is worth about 80 doing the same.

___That was very interesting information with regards to idle. Sounds like a semi-lean-burn mode vs. stoich? I have always read the Insight’s run lean-burn at idle but I do not believe anyone has verified this? I can bet some Insight’ers that have read this thread are scratching their heads right about now?

___For the future, I can see you inputting your own output from the LAF so as to force the ICE to run lean even when cooler after a very long FAS. A properly sized pot should take care of that issue although I think the emissions people may have something to say about it …

___It sounds like you have a good one with just a touch more work to bring her from near death to Good condition.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

___Does the VX have any kind of NOx purge while pushing lean-burn? With the CAT removed, its NOx is probably through the roof but maybe there was no feedback for NOx purge or if Honda even used a NOx Adsorber of some sort way back then?

During the drive home I went 500 miles in lean burn with no NOx purge that I could detect. The cat is still in but I fear that it is non-functional due to the exhaust smell. I doubt if there is any NOx control.


___Excellent FE for a car still being brought back to life … Just imagine what it will be when you get back to driving like you should be driving ;)

___The math on the LAF sounds about right. Leanburn cruise in the 5-speed at 50 mph is about 100 and the CVT based non-leanburn capable Insight is worth about 80 doing the same.

___That was very interesting information with regards to idle. Sounds like a semi-lean-burn mode vs. stoich? I have always read the Insight’s run lean-burn at idle but I do not believe anyone has verified this? I can bet some Insight’ers that have read this thread are scratching their heads right about now?

Exactly what I was thinking, semi lean burn.


___For the future, I can see you inputting your own output from the LAF so as to force the ICE to run lean even when cooler after a very long FAS. A properly sized pot should take care of that issue although I think the emissions people may have something to say about it


___It sounds like you have a good one with just a touch more work to bring her from near death to Good condition.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I am happy so far. This car is much more of a highway cruiser than the Del Sol. Once I get it through emmissions inspection and get my belly pan and grille block back on, I will start testing different routes to see which one is best.

Well the car only weighs 2094lbs.:D
Yeah that's a good 300 pound advantage over my HX too.

krousdb,

That is a light car, esp. a four-seater!

Yes, that was my main motiation, a hypermiler that the family could fit in. The Del Sol had to go because I had to stop at home to get the Outback before picking up the kids at school. It also became a PITA in other situations.

Technically it's a 5 seater, but there is plenty of room for four.

Just failed the emmissions inspection on the VX. CO was very good at idle and 2500 rpm but I failed the HC at idle test. 239ppm, 220ppm limit. At 2500 it was 116 so no problem there. I looked at my spark plugs again. I noticed a strange thing. While the electrode looked good, the insulator was white on one side and black soot on the other side. 3 of 4 plugs looked this way. It's like the combustion is fine on one side of the chamber but rich on the other side. I put in an old set from the Del Sol and decided to drive on those plugs for awhile to see what they look like. The only problem is that the heat range is one higher than what is recommended for the VX.

Anyone have an idea what would cause the plugs to look like that?

On another note, I installed my new main fuel relay which was preventing me from FASing. The drive to work was very interesting, just over 72.3 MPG which is about 0.5 better than my PB in the Del Sol. What made it interesting was that the FE at my milestones started out lower than the Del Sol. But when I got to the 6 mile uphill climb on the highway in lean burn mode I was able to make up for a 10 MPG deficit.

First milestone at 6ish miles, Del Sol - 63.59, VX - 61.10.
Second milestone at 13ish miles, Del Sol - 89.16, VX - 79.90.
Third Milestone at 19ish miles, Del Sol - 69.00, VX - 69.33.
Work at 25 miles, Del Sol - 71.71, VX - 72.33.

I could only get my HC down, I might really be able to see some good numbers.:D

Hi Dan:

___Just a thought? Insight plugs are indexed so that the electrode faces the ~ correct direction into the injection swirl to ignite the incoming Fuel/Air mixture most efficiently and completely. I doubt the VX’s plugs are/were indexed and Honda probably did not know nearly what they do today about the incoming charge’s properties. Because you are seeing just 3 of the 4 plugs showing a rich (cool burn w/ carbon deposits) on just one side of the plug, this could be an explanation? Running lean should clean those plugs all the way across but again, that ICE was designed a very long time ago. How a plug can be designed for both a rich and lean mixture mode is far beyond my understanding and I am sure it was a technical challenge to those early Honda engineers too.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Check PCV valve.

Didn't you say the car smells of unburnt fuel when you run it, and that you suspect the catalyst is burned up? That would be the primary candidate for replacement at this point. As for plugs, correct, the VX and HX use a very specific spark plug that is not only a higher heat range, but supposed to be "special" so as to tolerate both lean and stoich mixtures. At the very least, I know they use their own plugs, separate from the rest of the lineup.

Additionally, although I don't think any other Civic has used an EGR, the Civic HX uses and EGR and it's possible the VX does as well. If that is the case, you'll want to make sure it is not clogged or failing in any way. Bad EGR will certainly cause emissions problems. Lastly, if the fuel injectors are no longer in spec, you can be getting a slightly different flow rate in each cylinder. If you can afford vehicle downtime, it may be worthwhile to pull the injectors and send them off to RC Engineering to be flow tested and cleaned/balanced.

Thanks for all of the suggestions guys. After some thought, I suspect that the plugs look that way because of running rich before I changed the O2 sensor. I have about 75 miles on some other plugs (not the right heat range) and there is no sign of soot. As far as the cat, PCV and EGR, all of those were marked as "PASS" in the inspection sheet. But that may nean simply that they are present and not necessarily functional. I guess I will need to buy a compression and vacuum tester to test stuff out.

IYes, the exhaust smells like unburnt fuel. I suggested the cat to the service manager but he said that the cat wasnt the problem. He suggested a tune up.

It's tough to say what is a "tune up" in this day and age. If you haven't had a valve adjustment done, I'd suggest that. It's a very common one to be neglected and can cause all sorts of leakage problems. A compression test, and more importantly a leak-down test will tell you if there's a fundamental problem with the engine, although based on the description so far, I have doubts there is any such damage to the motor. A valve adjustment from the dealer should be no more than an hour and a half of labor, so maybe $150 or so, but get a quote first. An independant shop would almost certainly do it cheaper and the only gotcha is that VTEC engines are generally harder to get it right than non-VTEC. I've done valve adjustments on both, but never a SOHC VTEC, only the DOHC ones and I'll tell you it is a massive PITA.

Anyway, like you said, it's possible the other plugs look the way they do from having the fuel trim being incorrect for long enough to permanently burn the plugs. It's worth buying new plugs of the proper heat range, making sure they're gapped correctly, and installing them to be safe. You are correct that when they say PASS they just mean it's physically there. I've seen plenty of guys with Nissan 240SX's with the SR20DET swap pass emissions and those cars have neither an EGR nor charcoal canister, both of which the original KA24DE engines have. They just fab up dummy parts in the engine bay to make it look original, then make sure the cat works well enough to pass and bingo, emissions says everything is golden.

A good running car should come in at 20-25% of the limit, so it's still very likely the cat is toasted. Does the VX use the standard under-the-frame catalyst, or is it like the HX where it's built into the exhaust manifold?

Lastly, if you have not yet done so, run a full bottle of Techron additive through there. Like the big bottle that says it treats 22 gallons or something. That should help clear any injector clogging, and thus unbalanced injection out.

Just had a 68 MPG tank. :D

The fuel tank continues to be a pain to fill. I had to nurse in every drop because the pump keeps shutting off. The MID was disconnected during inspection so I dont have good data to calibrate it. My guess it that the MID overregisters fuel consumed so my daily numbers may actually be higher than what I have been reporting. The 68 MPG assumes that the tank was full. Since I spilled somefuel during the last click and I could see the fuel at the top of the filler, Im pretty sure it was full.

Any ideas why my tank is so hard to fill? Im wondering if it is related to my HC emmissions failure. Also, I replaced the fuel cap because it alsofailed inspection. One thing I have noticed is that during the few times that I have ever removed the fuel cap, there has never been a pressure release which I normally hear on any other car. Any ideas why? Perhaps related to emmissions failure?

To answer AZ's question about the cat, it's bolted on to the exhaust manifold. I have a used cat on the way. It had passed emmissions testing prior to removal. I also have a compression tester on the way.

If I stick the fuel nozzle completely in the filler hole, then it almost always false trips the gas pump. But it works fine if I only stick about half of the fuel nozzle into the filler hole. I've never noticed a pressure release on my car when I open the gas cap.

It doesn't matter how far the nozzle is in. The back pressure is too high. Makes me wonder if my vent tube is clogged.

Does your area or the area the VX came from use E10 gasoline? Just curious. I'm over 150,000 miles on my HX now and it's always run great. Part of me wonders if the natural solvant nature of the 10% ethanol in our Phoenix gas is part of what has kept the fuel system clean and working well over the years and miles.

We do have E10 but I try to avoid it.

Made some progress on the VX yesterday and today. I replaced the drivers side axle seal and the rear shoes and drums. Got my ebay compression tester today and got 175, 180, 170 and 175. That compares to 184 new and 135 min. I think the rings and valves are ok. No oil leaks now either. The last thing is the emissions.

When I first checked the plugs I noticed that all 4 had soot on 1/2 of the insulator, while the other side was white. Then I put in a spare set left over from the Del Sol. After several hundred miles, plug 1, 2 and three have no soot on the insulator, while plug 4 has the 1/2 soot 1/2 white syndrome.

Any ideas? It seems like there has been some improvement on all but #4. Im wondering if I have a clogged injector? I ran a tank of seafoam on the way home form chicago. Perhaps another? Any other things it could be?

I think the injectors are a good bet. If one (or more) of them isn't injecting at the proper rate, the ECU will sense a lean condition and increase the pulse width to compensate. But that extra fuel will only go into a couple of the cylinders, which leaves them running rich (soot on spark plugs?) and the others running hot and lean (white spark plug?). Those rich cylinders might explain your excesss hydrocarbon emissions, to boot!

You could try some fuel system cleaner (or a tank of E10...or maybe both) but it's a crapshoot whether or not it will work. Really badly clogged injectors generally need to be removed and cleaned on a bench.

I just bought the proper heat range plugs and a new set of wires. Also dumped a bottle of Lucas in the tank. But before I went home I woent for a highway drive to get a baseline for highway FE before adding the belly pan. I made a 51 km round trip at 55 MPH, DWL down to 50 up hill and up to 60 on the downhills. I did not CODfish, just had the injector shutoff downhill.

66.4 MPG (Assuming the MID is calibrated correctly)

That beats the Del Sol by about 4 MPG and I was FASing in the Del Sol and also had the belly pan on. I'm hoping for 67ish with the pan. Maybe better if I can fix the HC issue.

I think I will put in my new plugs and wires now.

In addition to adding the Lucas upper cyinder lube, injector cleaner, after my highway run, I decided to test out the VTEC. Previously I assumed that when lean burn kicks out, that VTEC kicks in. Well noooo! There are three distinct modes in the VX. Lean burn is in effect when the engine is warm, the O2 is warm and the pulse width is 6.3 or lower. The second mode is non VTEC, non lean burn which is in effect when the pulse width is above 6.3. It peaks with a pulse width of 9.5. This mode is in effect until between 2500 and 3000 RPM. That is when VTEC kicks in. At full throttle above say 2700 rpm, the pulse width maxes out at 11.5-12. Holy hell does this thing pull hard (relatively speaking). It will leave the Del Sol in the dust! It is also amazing how much fuel one can burn in VTEC full throttle. For sure I cleared out the cobwebs.

That being said, I just finished installing my NGK V-Power plugs (proiper heat range) and the new plug wires. Two details of note. That 4th plug that had the 1/2 white and 1/2 black insulator... Well the black had started to turn to brown and was noticeably less sooty. Secondly, the old wires measured between 5 and 8 kOhms, shortest to longest. The new ones measures 8-10 kOhms, shortest to longest. After installation, it seems to idle smoother. But that might just be my wishful thinking.

I'm wondering about the improvement shown on plug #4. It might have been the Lucas upper cyl lub/ injector cleaner doing its job. Or it could have been the cobweb clearing VTEC run. Whatever it was, hopefully #4 will look normal after a few hundred more miles.

I hope that cleaner stuff and the new plugs/wires work out. Good luck with the next attempt at emissions testing!

Also, you only think the belly pan is good for 1% improvement at 55mph? I would have hoped for something a little more significant, but then again I have yet to start screwing with the aerodynamics. The numbers that I got from an SAE paper suggested that some slick aero mods might be good for a solid 5% FE improvement, and then I was told by some of the gassavers guys that my estimate is stupid low, and should be more like 10-20%. I'll be curious to see what your numbers show.

I happen to think that aero mods are worth less than what others think. At highway speeds it doesn't amount to much. But that doesnt mran that it is not worth it. The proof is in he numbers. I hope to have some soon.

My preowned catalytic converter is on it's way. Soon I will be emissions testing again.....

One thing i have noticed with the VX is that compared to the Del Sol, it is difficult not to get good FE. But on the other hand, extreme FE techniques like FAS don't show much improvement over just leaving the ICE on in Lean burn mode. The result is that both the VX and the Del Sol have very similar extreme FE potential, but you just don't have to try as hard with the VX. The VX pulls away at highway speeds however, not to mention the fact that there is seating for five.

Or maybe I haven't cracked the VX code yet......

The catalytic converter arrived yesterday. Now I just need to find the time to install it. I just went over 500 miles on this tank and the gauge is still pegged above F. I seem to remember that on the maiden voyage from Chicago to Pittsburgh, the needle dropped below F at about 415 miles. Yes, there is a pproblem with my fuel gauge. The plan is to run the tank down far enough so I can remove the fuel filler tube without having to drain the tank. I need to make sure that the vent tobe isn't clogged. While I'm at it I will remove the sending unit and take some measurements to see what the deal is.

I have a feeling that I will smell like gas for a few days after I am finished.:p

Hi Dan:

___Woman have this almost prescient ability to smell something amok from a mile away … You might want to park it out on the side of the house and remove some of your clothing before you come into the garage. This is before she has the chance to smell the residual on your person, lays down the law, and you begin the ordeal of stripping down in the garage before being allowed into your own home? We both know who really rules the roost when it comes to things like this :D

___Good Luck

___Wayne

It appears that my PCV valve is acting like an open pipe and potentially causing a vacuum leak at idle. Coincedentally, my HC problem is a idle only, so hopefully this will fix the emmissions problem.

Anyway, it turns out that you can't get a PCV valve for the CX/VX at your local auto parts store. You have to go to the Honda dealership. And they don't stock it. Maybe by Monday I will have a new one. For $17, I think it will be gold plated.....

After spending $325 on a freaking O2 sensor, did you really think you'd get off cheap on the PCV valve? Anyway, hopefully that helps and/or fixes the emissions problem. This is CleanMPG, we can't have you running around in a gross poluter doing 50 miles a day! :)

It definately needed the O2 sensor. I can handle another $17.

Indeed, the total cost of ownership for your new car is still extremely reasonable, IMHO. I've certainly spent more in repairs on cars that were a lot fewer years old, so I think you're doing great so far!

After spending $325 on a freaking O2 sensor, did you really think you'd get off cheap on the PCV valve? Anyway, hopefully that helps and/or fixes the emissions problem. This is CleanMPG, we can't have you running around in a gross poluter doing 50 miles a day! :)

Actually, my HC at 2500 rpm was well under the limit. The problem was only at idle. Since my car never idles, I am technically not in violation.:p

Well that's good. It's too bad not every place can afford the simulated road test emissions like we do in Arizona and California. Much less emphesis on just idle and non-loaded engine speed operation, since the car is put on loaded rollers and run up to actual road speeds, coasted down, etc. It's kind of like the EPA City test, but only lasting about 3 minutes instead of 12 or however long the EPA test is. Much better way to identify what cars are truly poluting or not. It's possible your car would have passed AZ emissions, based on being clean when above idle speed actually. I'm not sure if they measure idle separately or not though. Hmm... ok it might have still failed, but at least you'd have had more info!

Hi Dan:

___About your next emissions tests, how many times can you go in before they say enough is enough? I know your car will be fine after the new/used CAT is installed and the tune up/emissions parts replacement but just wondering what the laws in your state are.

___Brandon, here in Illinois they got rid of the roller test w/ a Gas probe in the tail pipe because of damage to some vehicles. Now it is idle and rev in idle with the sample probe for older cars and a simple OBD-II check if your vehicle is relatively new. This was the way it worked during my last check probably 2 or 3 years ago here in IL. anyway?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

The rule is that after at least two failures, if I can show that I have spent over $250 in repairs performed by a qualified mechanic, I will get a one year waiver. So every year I would have to spend $250 to get the waiver. Or I could move to the next county and not have to worry about it.

True, all OBD-II vehicles just get plugged in and scanned for codes, as well as pressure test the gas cap, visual inspection, and something else trivial. It's possible that after some number of years even the OBD-II cars have to do the roller test, but so far my 97 Civic has passed just with the gas cap test, visual, and OBD-II scan. My older cars had to be roller tested.

That seems odd that they would cite "damage" as a reason to discontinue the tests there. I mean L.A. has more cars than the entire state of Arizona, and most all of CA plus about 75% of cars in AZ are in areas that mandate the roller tests. I've never heard of any problems except a long time ago when they first introduced roller testing and you'd get some clown who'd roll a FWD car with the rear wheels over the rollers, or vice-versa, or who would put an AWD truck on the rear rollers. Haven't heard of any such thing in a long time now, however. I imagine the fact that all cars from the last 10 years are OBD-II anyway is a big contributor to fewer stories of roller incidents.

The rule is that after at least two failures, if I can show that I have spent over $250 in repairs performed by a qualified mechanic, I will get a one year waiver. So every year I would have to spend $250 to get the waiver. Or I could move to the next county and not have to worry about it.

I live in the next county. :) Emmision testing is just one of many reasons I find to not live in Tulsa Co. or Oklahoma Co. That being Tulsa or OKC. :D They did drop standard inspections several years ago in the state and I thought that was really stupid of the morons in OKC. Ive seen cars being driven on 4ea. donut spares. Head lights and tail lights missing. Windshields all but blown out and all sorts of things that are major saftey hazards.

With all the ozone alerts we have had this summer and the failures in controling ozone on such days Tulsa is about to get hurt bad by the EPA. Its a shame most folks in Tulsa ignore the alerts and do as they please. I pay attention to them and I live 40 miles south of town.

I remeber doing the roller test with my geo metro. They were barely able to get it to follow the program that shows them when to accelerate and how fast. I think at some point the absoulutely couldn't get it to accelerate fast enough and it veared from the programing (I believe there was a screen with two lines on it, one showed where the car should be based on the program and the other was the actual speed/acceleration rate.)

They had my car past redlineing trying to keep up some of the acceleration rates on the screen. This may be part of why they might have eliminated it due to damage. If your car had a weak spot in the exaust they probably could have blown a hole in it, or if your oil hadn't been changed or was low they could have blown some engines.

I think I might finally had the SuperMID calibrated. The problem I have been having is that my tank is very difficult to fill consistently so I don't know if I am consistently filling to the same level. But the last two fiulls, I jiggled the car after topping it off and the level didn't drop. In both cases I could see the fuel at the top of the filler tube. Hell, when I got home from the gas station, 0.116L later I checked the filler tube and I could still see the fuel. I'm pretty sure it is full.

The results?

:woot: 708 miles, 9.715 gallons, 72.88 MPG!

The MID showed 67.0 MPG.

I have recalculated my fuel parameter to 14219. What this means is that the numbers that I have been posting are about 8% low. It appears that the VX does indeed perform better than the Del Sol, which also makes sense.

Nice. Congrats on the huge tank!

krousdb,

saw on an older post that you had your honda ECU flashed for lean burn - can you tell me a little more about that (i.e. where you had it done, what was involved, was it worth the cost, etc.).

I'm curious if my base (non VTEC) honda engine can enter lean burn (whereas the HX and Hybrids tout VTEC-E Lean Burn capable). I know the HX and Hybrid civic's run two cats (not sure if this is directly related to lean burn mode), does your VX have dual cats, and if not did you notice (or do you track) higher exhaust gas temps with the lean burn mod?

Hi Dan:

___That was huge and you are playing around in Insight territory now! This is from a car and yourself with less then 25 hours together and you have yet to find an optimized route yet, correct? I cannot wait to see what you will do when both the VX and your route are dialed in!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

krousdb,

saw on an older post that you had your honda ECU flashed for lean burn - can you tell me a little more about that (i.e. where you had it done, what was involved, was it worth the cost, etc.).

I'm curious if my base (non VTEC) honda engine can enter lean burn (whereas the HX and Hybrids tout VTEC-E Lean Burn capable). I know the HX and Hybrid civic's run two cats (not sure if this is directly related to lean burn mode), does your VX have dual cats, and if not did you notice (or do you track) higher exhaust gas temps with the lean burn mod?

The ECU is a Honda OBDI for a 92-95 Civic DX. It was chipped (meaning I can program a chip with different fuel maps) and I used it on the Del Sol. I had it running about 10% lean and noticed nothing in terms of better FE. I did notice less power however. Now the Del Sol is gone and I still have the chipped ECU. I'm trying to sell it at the moment.

As far as your non-vtec honda, you will not be able to have lean burn unless you have the LAF aka Wideband O2 sensor. The easy way to tell is to count the wires. 5 wires means that the O2 sensor is capable of monitoring AFR's from about 10:1 to 23:1. Without it you will not have lean burn. The VX was the first VTEC-E, way back in 1992 in fact.

Hi Dan:

___That was huge and you are playing around in Insight territory now! This is from a car and yourself with less then 25 hours together and you have yet to find an optimized route yet, correct? I cannot wait to see what you will do when both the VX and your route are dialed in!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wayne,
I have found that the same route will work for both the Del Sol and the VX. What I thought was a 73MPG PR to work turns out to be close to 79 MPG with the new calibration. I would say that I am optimized. I just got back from a highway run at 55MPH using DWL up the hills. Since I was in a 65 zone there was lots of traffic passing by pulling me along with them. The 34 mile RT (all in lean burn mode) was worth 76.1 MPG at 85F. :Banane06:

I just checked, and I only have 4 wires running to the O2 sensor - it was worth a shot...

And your fuel re-map experience makes me less inclined to go down that road myself. Thanks for the info!

I just checked, and I only have 4 wires running to the O2 sensor - it was worth a shot...

And your fuel re-map experience makes me less inclined to go down that road myself. Thanks for the info!

Im glad you didnt get too far along before asking.

Lean burn mode has a distinct feel. When it kicks in, you feel a sudden loss of power. As you apply more throttle, the injector pulse width increases very slowly, letting more air in the throttle body while only adding a tad bit more fuel. Lean burn can easily be sustained at 65 MPH and up most hills without losing too much speed. Lean burn might even be good up to 70-75, I just haven't been in that much oif a hurry to try it out.:p

Hmmm. It is interesting to me that lean burn in the Insight is not sustainable once you get over 55 MPH IIRC. I'm wondering what an Insight is worth at a steady 70 MPH, maybe 70 MPG? The VX with belly pan and grille block might be able to give an Insight a run for the money at those speeds.

As expected, the newly calibrated SuperMID has me in the mid 70's now for my daily commute. 78ish to work and 73ish on the way back. So far this tank, 144 miles, 75.3 MPG.

I finally broke the 80MPG barrier on the drive to work, and I did it with quite a margin. Everything worked today, no traffic, made all but 3 lights, warm temps, etc... For the 25.x mile commute to work, 83.18 MPG.:woot:

Coincedentally, exactly one year ago, August 4th, the drive to work in the Prius was 83.41 MPG under similar environmental conditions.

The drive home in the VX has been normally in the 71-74 MPG range depending on traffic. Not much chance of an 80 MPG round trip but that doesn't mean I won't have fun trying.:D

Current tank, 320 miles, 75.7 MPG.:eek:

LOL

Man you are good! I'm just pushing 55 in my civic :(

My best RT yet today. The drive to work was not a record at 80.1. But my drive home was a racord at 77.7. That puts the RT at 78.9. The 15 MPH tail wind during my highway segment (50% of total distance) probably didn't hurt much either.:D

thank you , every one for your kind and warm greetings

My brother, who has worked at a Honda dealership for 15 years, believes the Civic motors of the early 90s are the most reliable that they have ever built. And getting that kind of milage is a clear indication that your engine is in great condition. I remember for the year before I found out my last car engine was dying, my milage was very poor.