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Well, I just filled up the Jetta again. 875 miles on 14.5 gallons.

60 MPG. I cant count (120,000 mi) how many times that's been a reality for me.

I cant imagine why people are messing around with those battery powered things that
are getting 40+ when could be getting 60+.

Frankly I dont care how much fuel costs. I might consider buying a new Golf diesel hybrid when they come out. Going from 60+ to 80+ would be cool.

Good numbers! If you push it a little more, 70 MPG is definitely within reach. I find that with 800+ mile tanks, there's always those couple trips that bring down the tank average and keep you from getting really good tanks. By the way, I have a 2001 Jetta TDI as well. The Honda Insights are consistently getting 90+ MPG though, a little more than 40.

Kirk

great - keep us informed of your progress and techniques

Hi Diesel Joe:
I cant imagine why people are messing around with those battery powered things that are getting 40+ when could be getting 60+.
___You did not really mean that, did you? Diamond Larry’s 3-month Prius average is sitting at 83 + so I would step it up a notch to show “those battery powered things” what a diesel can do! 60 is just ahead of what an Accord usually pulls in these kinds of temps let alone a Prius ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

sounds like Wanye is setting up a 3 month fun run between the sparks and the smokes

How about an Indianapolis Motor Speedway to Disney run ? One tank, Wayne with a Prius and the Diesel Jetta's. It's only 985 miles. :D
Wayne you only have to squeeze about 82 mpg out of the Prius. On the other hand the 2001 Jetta's need to get 68 mpg to do it on one tank.

Im new to this site. And, with respect to this site and the people who frequent it, I know six Prius drivers and two Civic drivers none of them get more than 45mpg. The numbers that are reflected from the hybrids on this site arent representative of hybrid drivers in general. Whereas everybody I know who drives a TDI is getting mid to high 50's +. You dont have to be a hypermiler to get good numbers with a TDI. You do if youre going to get good numbers from a gasser hybrid... :woot:

Hi Turbo Diesel Joe:

___Don’t worry about it… I happen to know an 03 Jetta TDI driver that usually receives in the high 30’s to mid 40’s. They are what they are and this site is not about an us vs. them. We simply promote high FE no matter what you own and drive and by pushing our vehicles, you will soon discover your TDI is worth a heck of a lot more than just 60 mpg over an entire tank :)

___ALS, as for hitting Orlando, I would take the Accord as its range is closer to 1,100 miles at 58 + w/ its 19.6 gallon cap vs. the Prius’ 12.2 gallon cap. Either would be fun but a Lean-burn capable HCH-I with its 16.1 gallon cap and a 75 mpg highway number would kick all our @$$es let alone an Insight driving to Orlando and almost making it back to Indianapolis on a single tank ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Either would be fun but a Lean-burn capable HCH-I with its 16.1 gallon cap and a 75 mpg highway number would kick all our @$$es

___Good Luck

___Wayne
i know you probably talking about an MT but what am i doing wrong????:o

Hi Ikea:

___The next time you here of one of us passing through PA., let us know so we can take you out on a clinic. The lean burn capable CVT based HCH-I’s are fuel misers as well and I suspect that is what you own! Tom Baleno’s 03 w/ the CVT was an excellent ride once you settled her down out on the highway. He had a unique method in which he would throw it into a slight glide and bleed off about 2 mph per mile. After a mile or two, he would pulse back up to maybe 59 mph and let it bleed off to 55 over the next two miles and repeat. His was always good for 70 out on the highway doing that and it was pretty easy and fun too :) We did not have the hills that PA has however :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne

well i will try to talk to one of you when you are going threw here. I know i do not have the hills like west pa. it just seems to me like i am not doing something correctly.

Tanks weights vary more on that fuel .... that's why I'm wondering if it is possible to calculate exact fuelweight for precision on the numbers under temperature change.

I'm also wondering how the high compression will compete with the Atkinson or other easy starting engines that suit the hybrid purpose.

I don't know that the flywheel starts are too easy on the clutch when it comes to breaking the diesel compression when FASing.

Likely, the diesel hybrids (if they come into mass production) will probably need more energy in starting each time unlike the gas powered ... unless there is decompression mode built into them as well.

PDW, Wrong thread maybe?

Kirk

I cant imagine why people are messing around with those battery powered things that are getting 40+ when could be getting 60+.I'll tell you why. Those (semi-) battery powered things are built by Honda and Toyota. TDIs are built by Volkswagen.

I'm about to head over to my mechanic to pick up my TDI, which has been in the shop for 150k service, exhaust work and an injector pump rebuild (has been getting clattery lately).

$3,500.00

Which is fine. Don't get me wrong. That's a big budget hit, but we'll figure out how to deal with it. After more than 8 years of deciding NOT to buy a TDI because they're made by VW (we actually submitted, and then cancelled, an order for a TDI Golf back in 1999 -- more or less the car we're driving now), we finally decided last year that it would be worth it anyway. We KNEW there would likely be more maintenance hassle and expense than we've been accustomed to with Japanese cars, but we decided to accept that. And the Golf is a blast to drive, too!

Still, you can see how this kind of thing might just scare a few people off from TDIs and make them to decide on a HCH or Prius instead.

(also, if you are getting 60+ out of your TDI you're probably also capable of getting 60+ out of a Prius or HCH. I don't understand this widespread diesel vs. hybrid mentality. Both have their pluses and minuses, but they're BOTH good. It's even sillier than Ford vs. Chevy. What's next, window stickers showing up on the back of Priuses showing Calvin peeing on a VW? On the back of TDIs showing Calvin peeing on a Prius??)

Im new to this site. And, with respect to this site and the people who frequent it, I know six Prius drivers and two Civic drivers none of them get more than 45mpg. The numbers that are reflected from the hybrids on this site arent representative of hybrid drivers in general. Whereas everybody I know who drives a TDI is getting mid to high 50's +. You dont have to be a hypermiler to get good numbers with a TDI. You do if youre going to get good numbers from a gasser hybrid... :woot:Joe, I'm not finding your statements about phenomenal TDI mileage to be the case, and I think you'll see there's pretty wide variation over at tdiclub.com too.

As you can see my car (with my wife driving it most of the time) is averaging just 42mpg so far. On roadtrips we get 48-50 (NOT 50+!) if we keep the speed in the low 60s. In town, my wife has a 1 mile commute that doesn't even come close to warming up the engine, so she gets 38mpg for most of her in-town driving. The previous owner averaged 41 mpg.

And no, there's nothing wrong with the car though. Driving conditions are the key here. I got 62mpg in it at the Lacey fuel economy challenge (90 miles of back roads) a couple months ago. We did a 1000 mile trip over the 4th weekend and got 48mpg including a lot of city and mountain driving and the A/C on 95% of the time. But despite my best efforts -- and I've gotten to be a pretty decent hypermiler -- I'm definitely not in the "mid to high 50's +" like "everyone you know who drives a TDI". Do you (and your friends), by any chance, spend a large percentage of your time driving on a rural roads at speeds in the 40s and 50s? A lot of people on this site do, and for the most part those are the ones posting the great fuel economy numbers. The reason we're not doing as well is that our driving is 60% pure city, and the rest is highway roadtrips.

Just goes to prove the whole point of existence of cleanmpg: driving style and conditions make a huge difference in fuel economy, far more than most people realize. By most accounts, TDIs and HCH/Prius level hybrids get very similar mileage to each other in most conditions. If TDIs get better mileage it is only marginally the case in my observation.

interesting,

but we aren't really comparing apples to apples here - The new TDI has 230 ft. lbs of torque thats a rather high powered machine.

Well, for one thing the prius is the ugliest damn thing on the road. People are buying because they think they're making a PC statement. AND, it needs batteries to get those numbers. My TDI doesnt. Will I buy a new Golf diesel hybrid that gets 80+ mpg probably, but it wont look like a bloody spaceship thats for sure.

Well, for one thing the prius is the ugliest damn thing on the road. People are buying because they think they're making a PC statement. AND, it needs batteries to get those numbers. My TDI doesnt. Will I buy a new Golf diesel hybrid that gets 80+ mpg probably, but it wont look like a bloody spaceship thats for sure.

Joe, we are glad to have you here but you really need to calm down and check your facts before posting something like that.

Looks do matter, but that really isn't the point here -- and a whole boat load of people are voting the same way with their pocket books right now as they try to deal with the high price of fuel. If the Prius was only good for a PC statement, not nearly as many people would be buying the machine. They buy it because it does get good mileage, it is plenty utilitarian with the hatch, and is very reliable.

As for "needing" batteries to get high numbers, please review the several threads available here about highway mileage in the Prius. The battery is too small to offer much in the way of help over large distances and really doesn't come into play much at the higher speeds you are comparing to. If you read posts by the expert Prius drivers here you will quickly discover that they avoid use of the battery as much as possible because of conversion losses involved in charging it back up afterward.

For the sake of completeness, the same observations are true of Honda hybrids -- except they don't have an all electric mode and have even smaller batteries.

So no, it doesn't use batteries to get the high numbers on the highway. And we have more than one driver who manages high 60s and low 70s on the highway without "needing" batteries to do it. Augmented vehicles (plugin prototypes) do use the battery to help and they get well over 100mpg on the highway because of it. We have only one or two occasional visitors who even own one of those -- the rest are stock.

Personally, I drive an unmodified Honda Insight to numbers over 100mpg at highway speeds -- and I avoid the battery like the plague to do it.

I'd also like to reinforce what Wriconsult mentioned about diesels and hybrids generally being pretty comparable out on the highway. Check out the "shootout" article comparing performance of two generations of Civic Hybrid, a Prius, and an advanced Diesel Civic driving across the country. The Diesel just barely edged out the hybrids for mileage and fell considerably short in the cost per mile equation.

When it comes down to it, we have several members here driving non-hybrid gasoline vehicles that get numbers up into the 70's at highway speeds -- notably some early model Civics and some Honda Fits.

We aren't in the business of bashing tech here -- we are here to help each other use less fuel in whatever we happen to own or choose to purchase. Diesels are without a doubt a good choice for fuel economy, but there are other choices which are very competitive and often reward their owners with very similar mileage numbers. Please avoid devolving discussion to an "US vs. THEM" challenge. This community is very open and welcoming -- an atmosphere that relies heavily upon a healthy level of respect for others and their choices.

Well, for one thing the prius is the ugliest damn thing on the road. People are buying because they think they're making a PC statement. AND, it needs batteries to get those numbers. My TDI doesnt. Will I buy a new Golf diesel hybrid that gets 80+ mpg probably, but it wont look like a bloody spaceship thats for sure.

:D Are you trying to start an argument with half the people here? If you want to see spaceship, look at the Nissan Murano.

I can attest to the fact that the hybrids can be hypermiled far beyond my TDI. I doubt I would ever see a 120 MPG round-trip segment like in the Prius in the 2008 WFEC.

Kirk

Whereas everybody I know who drives a TDI is getting mid to high 50's +.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but my '03 TDI has NEVER gotten in the mid-high 50's. Best mpg I've ever seen is 50-even.

3 times.

Out of 304 tanks of fuel over the past 5+ years.

Honestly, this subject is something that really pisses me off over on TDIClub. Lot's of guys spout off about the mileage they're getting , but make NO comments about HOW they get these numbers.

:mad:

I don't understand this widespread diesel vs. hybrid mentality. Both have their pluses and minuses, but they're BOTH good. It's even sillier than Ford vs. Chevy. What's next, window stickers showing up on the back of Priuses showing Calvin peeing on a VW? On the back of TDIs showing Calvin peeing on a Prius??)

I hear you... I see this a lot in forums that have nothign to do with hybrids or diesels. We own a coupel of MINI's and folks over in that world have been up in arms about the MINI diesel not being sold here. Many of these people seem to have their head in the sand. MINI has public stated why the D isn't coming here anytime soon and I understand and believe them. I can also think of business reasons which they haven't stated. You should have heard the uproar when MINI announced the upcoming EV MINI.

You want to hear the best "head in sand" arguement against hybrids I've heard so far?

"What about when those batteries end up in landfills??? :eek: "

They really don't know what to do when someone defending hybrids owns and drives TWO diesels... it's like watching their brain short-circuit right before your eyes... :rolleyes:

FWIW, I have seen "wee on Toyota" and "Honda" decals on TDI's... makes me embarrased to drive a VW... almost as much as driving a VW around central NJ when Waterfest is in town... :(

Honestly, this subject is something that really pisses me off over on TDIClub. Lot's of guys spout off about the mileage they're getting , but make NO comments about HOW they get these numbers.

:mad:

Ian, a 40-55 P&G at 75% load with FAS will bring you over 70 MPG.

edit: I love my diesel, but I don't see a problem with defending hybrids, both are great technologies.

Kirk

Ian, do you have the manual or automatic? The automatic sucks a lot of mpg potential, I don't actually know what one can achieve.

If you haven't done so, read Beating the EPA - The Why’s and how to Hypermile (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1510). Get your tires pumped up to max sidewall. If you've spent much time at tdiclub, you probably know about the maintenance that TDI's like to be in top running condition: replace the air filter when required, clean the snow screen, give it a high rpm high boost run to keep the intake clean, make sure the timing belt is replaced by somebody with the proper tools, and get your fuel from a place that does plenty of diesel business. Simply setting the cruise at 60mph should give in the 50's mpg if the car is running well.

Manual. I do the maintenance on the car, including TB (have all the tools). I've always inflated tires to max.... long before I ever hear of hypermiling... and I've driven this way for years... always coast to lights... avoid slowing... hard accelerations... use drafting... and so on... none of this stuff is really very new...

Where do you live where 40-55 P&G won't get you killed? :confused:

Most of my driving is on 4 lane highway in Ontario (Muskoka). It's built for cottage traffic, so my weekly commute is nearly traffic free and I can do 40 in a 60. I admit that this isn't possible for everyone :D.

My current tank has been a lot of cruise control @ 55 MPH because of longer trips, other passengers, so I'll post what the results are after the fill up.

SG has been showing amazing results for steady state driving near idle (~1000 RPM) in 5th gear. I haven't been able to thoroughly test it though.

Also, read this thread (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11079) about the dangers of drafting.

Kirk

WOW I just found this thread. I have both a 06 Jetta TDI and an 07 Prius. I don't get this us vs them mentality. Both cars get great mileage. Currently I am in the middle of a Kilo(1000 mile) tank attempt in the Prius. I will need to be in the low 80's to do it and am at 83.7 and 275 miles. After this tank, I am planning on driving the TDI and entering the fuel ecomony run for the TDIfest at the end of August.

All you getting great mileage in your TDI's, I would appreciate any help when I switch over to the TDI.

Ok, let me back track a little bit and apologize to anyone I've offended. It was not my intention to cause people to get riled up. I dont have anything in general against hybrid technology. I havent had to many positive interactions with the people Ive found driving the Prius. Politically Im conservative. While I enjoy my TDI and enjoy hypermileing Im in the way of thinking it's a personal choice, and not something I want our nanny state telling me to do. The current political direction with respect to green this and energy that is that big government direction. That said, it seems to me youre smart buying a hybrid or TDI for the economical reasons. I dont truck with the political statements people are trying to make buying a Prius over say a Civic hybrid. Toyota outsells the Honda ten to one because people are making a political statement buying them. You cant tell the Honda is a hybrid unless you check out the ass end. The Prius looks like a space ship. You cant miss it. Yada yada yada.

My apologies for causing a ruckus. :(

BestMapMan, mostly the advice I can give you is less than what you'll find on this site. Take a long time accelerating to highway speeds. Drive 60 mpg, or slower. Coast in neutral whenever possible on down hills. Take advantage of the advice here. Im just learning the three letter codes here and trying to take advantage of the vast knowledge and advice here.

Good luck.

BestMapMan, P&G works great in the TDI, there is less of an urgency to FAS (although it's still effective) since you're idling around 0.036-0.04 lph (~0.1 gph), significantly less that our gas counterparts.

Torque falls off below 1400 RPM, so keep your accelerations in the 1400-2000 range, I use between 75 and 80% LOD for accelerations. I use a 43-55mph P&G bracket for highway driving, any lower than 43mph is on the verge of a downshift to 4th to keep in the appropriate RPM band. I think that I'm around 80-85 MPG doing this.

Without the detrimental pumping losses, a steady state in 5th at 1000 RPM ~30mph gives some nice numbers, over 80 MPG in my limited testing.

One nice thing that's available is the BSFC map for the 1.9l TDI.
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/ALH_TDI_engine_map.png

A TDI driver's greatest bane: No diesel 'hybrid mode' in the SG. You're flying blind for ICE-OFF P&G.

Hope this helps, feel free to ask if you have any questions.

Kirk