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I see about 99% of the discussion on hybrids focussed on the electrical apparatus. Unfortunately the battery can't be any more efficient than the efficiency of the source of energy required to charge the battery. This is the fallacy of the plug in hybrid. Where is the energy going to come from to get electricity from the plug?

It amazes me that the overwhelming majority of hybrid owners don't have any idea what an Atkinson Engine is. If hybrids had conventional otto cycle engines they would get considerably less mileage.

I am curious if any body could tell me how much of a loss of fuel economy is obtained when they have 300 to 400 lbs of extra weight in their hybrid. I would like to extrapolate that figure to project how much more fuel economy could be obtained if the existing hybrid,with the Atkinson Cycle Engine, didn't have the extra weight of the electrical apparatus. Wayne and I have discussed this at other sites. What would be the fuel economy of an Echo as compared to a Prius if the Echo had the Atkinson cylinder head from a Prius? Can you imagine the cost differential between the two cars?
I would ask that you visit this site and consider the merits of using other means to compensate for low speed torque losses associated with Atkinson Engines. http://modifiedatkinsoncycleengine.blogspot.com/

The batteries are not 100% efficient as you said. The idea though is that some energy that is normaly lost in the operation of the vehicle is captured back. A regular engine doesn't do that no matter what type of intake it has. A hybrid with an otto cycle engine would get better mileage than a non hybrid. Yes, the weight of the batter does make a difference but the fact the difference is overcome shows just how much energy people waste when driving.

In a perfect world where everyone coasts to a stop without ever touching the brakes and had people push start them to get them up to speed would make the hybrid system irrelavent. However, since this is impossible, hybridizing any vehicle will give it more MPG than a non-hybrid with the same engine. Well, that assumes your hybrid system is efficient enough to overcome the weight (if it isn't then the company wouldn't be using the system would they so you can be sure it is).

I respectfully asked you to read the blog. If this site is dedicated to the general concept of better MPG I would hope we could have an open mind to exploring new ways to achieve those goals. The hybrid is not cost effective at current fuel prices. I am trying to promote ideas that would make vehicles more fuel efficient at todays fuel prices without violating cost benefit ratios.

If we have to subsidize hybrids to make them attractive to the public we will go broke before we make a significant dent in average vehicle fuel econonmy.

And to make sure I'm clear. Yes, a hybrid using an otto engine would get less FE than it does with an Atkinsonised engine. However, it would still get better FE than the same non-hybrid otto engine.

Hi CleverLever:

___Tom made an excellent point with regards to regen for a hybrid vs. non-hybrid. There is another … It has to do with extremely slow speed inner city, slower town, and just slightly faster suburban driving. In the case of the HSD and eCVT equipped hybrids available to us today, EV mode saves a ton of fuel vs. idling or very slow speed travel with ICE-On. It is not just an almost closed throttle plate issue but the thermodynamic efficiency of an ICE and the overall efficiency of the system (the entire car) when crawling around in first and second gear while that ICE is busy burning fuel at idle or when accelerating from stop light to stop light. Although a properly designed Atkinsonized ICE can see somewhere in the neighborhood of 37% + efficiency, it is 0% efficient when sitting at a light idling away going nowhere. An EV approach can achieve upwards of 90% TE in this slow speed driving environment even though the SoC (State of Charge) came from the ICE running at just 30 to 37% TE. Which would you rather have? An ICE running at 30 - 37% efficiency but the system receiving in the neighborhood of at best maybe 5 - 10% TE overall traveling 10 miles in 1 hour or an ICE-Off w/ the car running EV at 90% TE for 6 - 7 miles of that same 10 miles over the same hour? A real world practical example is those leaving Houston to escape Hurricane Rita last fall. The Escape HEV, Prius I, II, Highlander, and RXh folks arrived at their destinations with > ½ tank after 200 or so miles whereas the ICE only non-hybrids were running out of fuel for anyone trying to keep their ICE’s running for the 15 - 20 hour + ordeal. There is a weight and performance penalty in some cases but overall, the Atkinsonized ICE with an EV capable pack does achieve decent performance while allowing much higher FE then the average non-hybrid driver will ever achieve.

___A caveat to this. There are those like myself who can out-hybrid the hybrids in the non-hybrids by taking the non-hybrid’s capabilities beyond the hybrid’s special tricks speed ranges. Think FAS’ing from 75 mph to a toll booth 1.5 + miles away and I think you can understand where I am coming from. Some hybrid’s can be forced into this realm as well but most won’t or risk other problems when doing so. Again, the non-hybrid (w/ a stick in particular) can be thrown into and out of any mode one can think of at will (other then EV) vs. the hybrid being stuck (HSD and eCVT’s have 41 mph ICE spin ups for MG1 protection and starting torque reasons) as just one hybrid limitation example.

___I will try and post the Ford Hybrid Experience write up in the article section later today or tomorrow with information as to what the Atkinson cycle ICE is worth vs. the std. OTTO cycle in a regular Escape as well as what weight does to the overall efficiency (Fuel Economy) not TE in ~ 100 # increments. I think it will be worth your time to read ;)

___What I would like to see is a relatively lightweight 3, 4 or 5 door coupe/sedan/hatch (see the CleanMPG gallery for pics of the Yaris, Fit, and Versa at the Chicago Autoshow) with the hybrid’s Atkinsonized ICE and a smallish and relatively inexpensive BAS system similar to what GM is placing in the Saturn VUE Greenline and Toyota is placing in their Japanese based Vitz. You would see Prius II like FE with sub-compact like $15K or less USD pricing. PZEV’ing these small ICE’s is not that expensive so the manufacturers may as well throw that into the mix just as Ford did with the 03 Ford Focus’ w/ the PZEV based 2.3 L ICE’s throughout the country! Give me an Atkinsonized PZEV based 2.0e w/ a stick in the 06 Ford Focus ZX3, 4, or 5 and we could do some serious damage to the EPA estimates ;) It may not be a 0 – 60 in < 8 - 9 second automobile as it is today but who cares. 10 - 12 seconds or less to 60 mph is fine for the traffic most sit and drive in today imho.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hello,

To use part of Wayne's Statement:

It may not be a 0 – 60 in < 8 - 9 second automobile as it is today but who cares. 10 - 12 seconds or less to 60 mph is fine for the traffic most sit and drive in today imho.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

That is not just so many (Words), I just got to go throught that on the way home Friday evening. Interstate, bumper to bumper and flowing at the rate of 15 to 60 mph, both lanes. Anymore speed is just not all that (Important). FE (Fuel Economy) on the other hand: "IS".

Terry

My counter point to the in town benefit of hybrids is not politically correct but thats never bothered me before. At the point where regenerative braking makes sense we should be considering mass transit. Where I live Park and Ride has become quite popular. You drive your car to a point where traffic conjestion is about to become a problem and you get on a bus. Reality is they aren't doing it for fuel economy reasons they are doing it to save on urban parking cost.

I am also to dumb to understand why we can't have the engine turn off at idle feature on conventional engines. Residual AC capacity could be maintained with a low cost refrigerant accumulator upstream of the expansion valve. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Buick used to have a starter that was connected to the gas pedal?

And then there is the illusion factor which is that the electricity to recharge the battery is subtracted from highway mileage because of the EPA test cycle.

I think the truth is that people on this board are much more intelligent than average drivers who just aren't going to adapt to your sophisticated driving habits.

Again my pursuit is cost effective means to improve fuel economy that are applicable to mainstream drivers.

Hi Cleverlever:

___The average public automobile owner including my wife won’t go through the gyrations of keying off and on the ICE let alone FAS’ing, P&G’ing, DWB, DWL, PP, Face-out, or any other number of techniques we use. The HEV incorporates some of these techniques under the hood without user intervention and an average driver having no skills whatsoever can receive 44 - 48 mpg in an HCH-I or Prius II vs. the average Civic/Corolla driver with real world FE in the high 20’s at best! If all of us could ride the train, car pool, or Park and Ride, most of us would but it’s not practical enough for about 5 million people in the Chicago and Chicago suburbs and the Chicago area has one of the best Mass-Transit systems in the country :(

___We do have ICE-Off capability today. It is called the key ;) In Europe and in many large cities on the East coast, there are posted signs saying excessive idling is strictly prohibited. In Europe, it is taught as a part of any Eco driving course as well as being common knowledge throughout most of the EU. We will eventually see Stop/Start, Autostop, Auto Start like systems built into all cars here in the state as a huge % of our fuel consumption comes about from sitting at a light or sign with the ICE idling and us going nowhere :( Types? Anyone that has clutch started a moving MT equipped automobile knows how much more energy a moving vehicle has then a 12V Gear reduced starter. I would propose a small flywheel spun up via ICE or regen once the car was in motion. Just enough mass to spin over the ICE via clutch a few times within 10 minutes of the ICE stopping should do it? This may actually be the least cost approach for a Start/Stop system imho?

___I hope for the Yaris, Fit, or Versa to become that cost effective basic hybrid for the masses. I think the mainstream hybrids have the advantage in the FE department as has been shown time and time again but a full hybrid is an automobile that the poor simply cannot afford. When we see Chevrolet Aveo’s with BAS and EPA ratings in the low to mid 50’s/high 40’s City/Highway going for ~ $13K or less, I know our country will finally have arrived …

___Good Luck

___Wayne

My counter point to the in town benefit of hybrids is not politically correct but thats never bothered me before. At the point where regenerative braking makes sense we should be considering mass transit. Where I live Park and Ride has become quite popular. You drive your car to a point where traffic conjestion is about to become a problem and you get on a bus. Reality is they aren't doing it for fuel economy reasons they are doing it to save on urban parking cost.

I am also to dumb to understand why we can't have the engine turn off at idle feature on conventional engines. Residual AC capacity could be maintained with a low cost refrigerant accumulator upstream of the expansion valve. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Buick used to have a starter that was connected to the gas pedal?

And then there is the illusion factor which is that the electricity to recharge the battery is subtracted from highway mileage because of the EPA test cycle.

I think the truth is that people on this board are much more intelligent than average drivers who just aren't going to adapt to your sophisticated driving habits.

Again my pursuit is cost effective means to improve fuel economy that are applicable to mainstream drivers.
Some Valid Points here I think (IMO) of course.:) Like this statement from your comments.

"I think the truth is that people on this board are much more intelligent than average drivers who just aren't going to adapt to your sophisticated driving habits."

I agree with you on this comment to a (Degree). I'll explain, Yes the members here are probably for the most part Rather Intelligent. And to take their philosophy on FE (fuel economy) to it's true meaning here at www.CleanMPG.com (http://www.CleanMPG.com) . I think this or I should in this case say I would like to, simply clarify something. This site was and is not set up for a (Specific-Vehicle) and or a (Perfect-Driver). It is here to Share Driving Tips and Suggestions to "Anyone" that drives any "Vehicle", that would like to Increase their FE. That means simply, a person can increase their (MPG) FE to what ever degree that (They) want to put in the effort and practice to learn. It may in some cases be a (Little) or then with some other person a (Major) increase. It is all up to the person and how far they want to take the information to it's end result. Anyone can do better, and that is one of the Main Focuses here. So it is always a Win-Win situation for the Driver here, The better FE a driver wants, the more self learning, practice that he/she will be willing to do.

So I do agree with you on your comment up to a point, as long as we both understand each others philosophy on this topic.

I do want to say at this time that the above comments are (Mine) and not the Founders of this Web Site. I am in No-Way speaking for them. However I Honestly think that my comments here on this are "Correct".

Terry

Hi Tiger:

___That was one of the most exacting posts I have seen you type up! Nice job giving a viewpoint to those that just want to drive all the way to those of us that believe an ounce of fuel wasted is as close to blasphemy as … well blasphemy ;) A great understanding of what I hope to see CleanMPG develop into as well. I can only hope I have a part in teaching others how to take whatever they are driving to FE and range that they had never before dreamed possible :D

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Request some clarification about this site

Is this site devoted only to driving techniques or is it acceptable to talk about about technological advancements that can improve fuel mileage?

There must be some place on the internet thats devoted to low tech means to increase fuel economy. So far I haven't found it.

What I have found thats interesting is I can take my RVS-FLO Rat Rod to a show and get more interest in one day than I have gotten in 30 years of promoting renewable energy. And the sole interest in E85 is to keep the former intake ports cool.

Says a lot about where most people have their heads at.

Heres the car http://cleverlever99.blogspot.com

Anything FE, tech advancements or habbits. Discuss it all. But if someone disagrees with you don't take offense.

Request some clarification about this site

Is this site devoted only to driving techniques or is it acceptable to talk about about technological advancements that can improve fuel mileage?

There must be some place on the internet thats devoted to low tech means to increase fuel economy. So far I haven't found it.

What I have found thats interesting is I can take my RVS-FLO Rat Rod to a show and get more interest in one day than I have gotten in 30 years of promoting renewable energy. And the sole interest in E85 is to keep the former intake ports cool.

Says a lot about where most people have their heads at.

Heres the car http://cleverlever99.blogspot.com

How, very interesting. I just read about that vehicle the other day. :)

So now I get to meet the owner, well chat with the owner, excuse me. :cool:

Terry
BTW, Nice ride: :D

Is there any data on this subject?

I don't dispute that you can reduce a lot of pollution by eliminating excessive idling. However I have read lots of SAE papers that have talked about how much fuel could be saved by just lowering Idle speeds. With negetive valve overlap you could reduce idle speed a lot and maintain excellent idle quality. Its also true that with high expansion ratios associated with Atkinson engines you can greatly reduce idle fuel consumption.

So heres a question. Take a prius with manual trans and turn all the accessories off and tell me how long it would idle before it ran out of gas.

I would bet it would run 3 days before it ran out of fuel.

I am also hoping for some imput on how much highway mileage is impacted by 300 lbs of weight increase.

Hope My questions don't bother you. I have a habit of making people think a lot and they usually become smarter people for having taken the time to answer my questions.

Hi Cleverlever:

___To answer a few of the specifics, you might want to read the following article …

Ford Escape Hybrid Fuel Economy Experience and Ford HEV Employees Passion (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=494)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

It's late so forgive me for not studying this more.

While I wish western cities like Dallas had better mass transit, it will never get the ridership of the East Coast. It would not work in my situation as DART does not serve Lewisville. I'd be tickled to death if the general public traded-in for the most fuel efficient vehicle in it's class. Many of them could easily go down a size or two in class...

I will read up more on the Atkinson engine.

I view today's hybrids as a means to recover wasted kinetic energy - the power source is still the gas tank. Honda seems to emphasis this more than Toyota. With Honda, they seem to stress an efficient gas engine with an electric motor in a supporting mode.

I need to read up more on this - hope no offence is taken.