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Older Gen1(1997-2001) CRVs are still going strong (if their valves were adjusted at 30k) and there are a lot of them buzzing around Beantown..

But, some of them are starting to have problems with the RT4WD (Real-Time 4WD).
It starts as a grinding noise when making sharp turns that mostly ends up being
a simple maintenance problem. (It needs new differential lube).
But sometimes there is a bad U-joint on the propeller shaft or worse.
Then it gets really expensive to maintain that rear wheel drive.

However, there is a solution. Remove the rear wheel drive.

Not being a 'Car Guy', when I did the conversion, I had a lot of problems (due to rust), which are posted here:
http://www.hondasuv.com/members/showthread.php?t=31745
If it wasn't for all the rust problems, I could have done this job with simple hand tools
inside of 2 hours. That means the kid at the gas station could do it in 30 minutes.. :o

So far, I'm really enjoying FWD.. :) My old 26MPG is closer to 30MPG now.
My goal is to hit 35MPG highway..

Cheers,
Rich

Hey,I wondered just how much various 4x4 AWD systems of all sorts cost in respect to mpg.The EPA usually shows just a 1mpg penalty-city/and hy for big 4X4 with the rear wheels being the primary full time drive wheels.The newer Pilot shows a 2mpg improvement- with the FWD only version.
Food for thought for drivers of big SUVs pickups.They could probably be converted to 2wd in a reversible way that would be more efficient than the current switching methods that have a constant mpg penalty.
Thanks,
Charlie

Mine is just bolted on, it would be relatively easy to re-install the parts.
But, since I'm not planing on trading it in, I'm not worried about loss of value.
If I sell it to a private party, my main selling point will be the MPG, not
the loss of driving in deep snow. (My wife's FWD Corolla does ok in snow).

When driving the RT4WD in bad winter conditions, it's a little quicker to get up
to unsafe speeds than a regular FWD. Not worth the cost in my case.

Now that the car is lighter, the rear end tend to bounce around more on bumpy roads.
The little tool kit back there is making more noise. :)
The handling is the same, but now I have to take extra care not to jack-rabbit,
or there is a real good chance of laying rubber.. So, I'm picking up a good Hypermiler habit now..

The acceleration takes getting used to. I was on an highway ramp (that I use a lot) and
while I was looking back (so I could make a safe merge onto the highway), I failed
to notice that I was speeding up faster than normal. SUVs have to go slow on curved ramps,
due to the roll-over factor. My CRV was started to tip a little too much for comfort!

The car is more spirited now. A while back, I had to haul almost 600 pounds of wood mulch
(10 bags) home. With that load, it accelerated, shifted and generally felt just like the old 4WD CRV!
So, IMHO there is a pretty big price for having rear wheel drive that hardly ever gets used.

Rich, yeah folks pay a heavy penaltyfor the 4x4.They use it maybe 100 miles a year of the 10,000 miles they drive-1%. When I wasa kid-50's living in Philidelphia-no one had 4x4.They used chains/ sand and other weight over the rear drive wheels for traction.

If I end up with a 4x4 in the future I'll keep the mod in mind.My 2003 Pilot was AWD-it was pretty efficient, but better without it according to the EPA.
Charlie

1%?? On the CRV, it's hard to tell when the rear wheels are activated.
There is no switch or LED to tell you it's on. But most times you can tell.
When your front tires start to spin-out, the rear wheels will start up about 0.3 seconds later.

But, the second you get going and the front wheels aren't spinning out anymore, the rear end shuts down.

So, taking off at a light on a snowy day might use the rear wheel drive for 4 or 5 seconds.
At the end of the winter, mine must have had 5 or 10 minutes of use..

I wouldn't be surprised if guys who took their CRV out to play in the mud (off-roading) too much
ended up with rear differential problems.

Hello Richard.

I just read your comments on disabling the 4WD option on the Honda CRV. I agree it will improve the MPG although to what degree I do not know.

My 1997 CRV recently lost the u-joint holding the rear driveshaft in place, and I am wondering if you or any others who have disconnected their rear wheel drives are interested in selling the driveshaft? Honda does not sell u-joints, rather complete driveshaft assemblies only.

I live in Northern Ontario Canada, and I do need all-wheel drive, especially in the winter and especially since I deliver mail for Canada Post.

So, I thought I would ask. Maybe your driveshaft is collecting dust somewhere and you might want to sell it.

I can start recording my gas mileage in detail if you are interested in getting more data on the difference in all-wheel drive and front-wheel drive.

Please advise.


Regards,

Jim Mayer

Hi Jim,

That's what Honda calls the Propeller shaft. I still have mine, but I'm not thinking of selling it
at this time. The U-joints on both ends are starting to bind up.
And, I'm thinking of repairing them and using that shaft to connect an electric EV motor
to my engine transfer case. Make my CRV into a Hybrid.. :)


You need a Rockford kit # 430-9B http://www.rockforddriveline.com/Staked_Instructions.htm

http://www.rockforddriveline.com/_borders/430-11.gif
http://www.rockforddriveline.com/replacem.htm

With the 430-9B kit, you can replace those non-repairable Honda U-Joints for a lot less
money than it would cost for a used shaft. Or, have a local drive-line shop do the work.

Those install instructions are a little simple. The guys on the CRV site
http://www.hondasuv.com
tell me told me to saw out the center section of the bearing shafts and punch the shaft
sections inwards, to avoid making the tapered holes too large for the new parts.

I'm assuming your propeller shaft is either out on the floor or about to be taken out.
(It's only 14 bolts).
Since it's only 10 or 15 minute job, a lot of CRV guys have pulled out the prop shaft,
and some have been badly damaged by flexing too much in the middle..
The center section of the shaft should not be bent at much of an angle, since
the splines(?) can be damaged.

That part in the middle where bolt # 5 is..
http://www.slhondaparts.com/images/PCI/13S100/008/3.jpg
I placed my prop shaft on a long board and tied it down with a rope..

I wonder if this could be done on a Subaru Forester. The extra 2-3mpg would bring its FE closer in line with other vehicles of its size.

Maybe.. Have to call up some local shops and get estimates. If it's really high, then
you know it might be hard. If some are really low, it's a DIY job.. ;)

I think this is an older Subie rear diff..
http://offroadingsubarus.com/images/welded_rear_subaru_diff_cleaning.jpg

The Honda short shaft setup looks almost the same as on this Subie..
http://www.invoauto.co.uk/images/Products/Strutbrace/AA0278-1-oncar-lrg.jpg

But, from the looks of it, there may be female sockets on each end of the short shafts.
Whereas the Honda short shafts have plug-in (male) fittings on each end.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f147/Xringer/alxe.jpg
I had to yank the outside end section off my CRV short shafts, because it's the part that keeps the rear wheels from falling off! (axial)?

The other end of the CRV short shafts plug in here:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f147/Xringer/D007.jpg
Left side of CRV rear diff, before removal.

If it's an easy DIY, you could save the parts and re-install them when you sold the car.
But, if it's a long term keeper, you might be able just to sell those parts to the shop..
Make some gas money on the deal. :)

Hey,I wondered just how much various 4x4 AWD systems of all sorts cost in respect to mpg.The EPA usually shows just a 1mpg penalty-city/and hy for big 4X4 with the rear wheels being the primary full time drive wheels.The newer Pilot shows a 2mpg improvement- with the FWD only version.
Food for thought for drivers of big SUVs pickups.They could probably be converted to 2wd in a reversible way that would be more efficient than the current switching methods that have a constant mpg penalty.
Thanks,
Charlie

Since the thread was revived, I figured I'd add my own commentary, too.... I've always refused to buy into the cult of AWD that has grown up in the last decade or so, particularly in the snowbelt.

Thanks to modern traction control systems, there's no reason why a FWD or even RWD system with good snow tires can't handle most people's winter driving needs, especially in light of modern traction control systems. Buying a set of snow tires is far cheaper than the MPG hit + extra cost of maintaining and repairing those AWD suckers over the long haul.

I'm sure there's folks who live in Alaska or who live in the snow belt hills who do need AWD capability -- or people whose job requires them to absolutely get through regardless of weather. But for the rest of us mere mortals, snow tires get the job done just fine.

Maybe someday if this place goes bankrupt and has no more money to plow the roads during the winter, I might need 4WD..
But, I could just stay home until it melts and then move to Texas.. :cool:

My wife has never had snow tires on any of her FWD cars and she hardly ever has any problems during the winter. Since we have retired, (and are not forced to drive to work)
we can just sit out the bad weather/black ice etc.. :Banane49:

Before I got the CRV, I had a 4WD Subaru back in the late 70s. I hardly ever used the rear wheel drive. I was really surprised to find my low mileage CRV had rear-end problems, since it has had very little use. (32,000 miles when I removed it).

This year, we are going to be hitting it's 10th birthday.. I'm going to try a timing belt job this spring. That should be fun.. :eek:

Another bad weekend is on it's way to Beantown, so we did most of our driving around, this morning and plan on getting in a trip to the blowing alley this afternoon..

Thanks for the info Rich.

I will contact Rockford for pricing. It looks like something my mechanic and I can handle.

I wish you well with the Hybrid idea!

A quick experinence: since the propeller shaft came off my CRV I got stuck TWICE! The 1st time delivering mail - going up an icy hill. When I went to back down I lost control and ended up in a guardrail. Thankfully only the guardrail was damaged. Then the next day I got stuck in my own driveway! Granted I was 'plowing' down the snow - that's how the lazy ones clean their driveways up here. I only then realized that FW drive is not posi-track. So there I was stuck with only one wheel spinning. Anyhow I miss my AWD.

I am all for saving fuel, so perhaps since the removal and/or installation is so simple I will run in summer mode (prop shaft removed) and winter mode - all 4 available.

So thanks again for the insight.

"realized that FW drive is not posi-track"..

They didn't build that in on Gen1 CRVs. :) Even when you have your RTAWD working,
if you let one side of your V get stuck on ice or in mud, the two tires on dry pavement won't turn.. While the other side is spinning out..
So, be careful when it's been raining and you pull off the shoulder on the highway.
I've heard of CRVs spinning out so much, the right-side wheels sank down to the little hub caps..

Good luck with the Rockfords. A while back, I heard they were about $70.00 USD a set.
Two things to remember,

1. Saw out the center of the old (press-fit) U-joints and drive the shafts inwards,
to preserve the ID of the holes. Because if you make the holes oversized, the new U-joint won't last long.
They will have little crimp marks inside the holes. You may need to sand them down smooth to fit the new part in snugly.

2. Be sure your mechanic knows that the prop shaft should not be bent in the center.
Since it will be damaged. (A while back, a shop guy screwed one up)..

Good Luck!!

The rear on the CR-V is not limited slip? That's surprising, since I used to have an '87 Civic 4WD wagon, whose "Real Time 4WD" system was the forerunner of the CR-V's. I'm 98% sure it had rear posi.

I've owned several AWD vehicles (the Civic, one Subie with rear LSD and two Subies without rear LSD) and the Civic substantially outperformed the non-rear-LSD Subies offroad and in deep snow. There was just about nothing that could get it hung up. The Civic would also spin donuts in a snowy parking lot with ease, something it shared with the rear-LSD Subie and but was much harder to do with the non-LSD ones.

I'm not sure why they would put a limited slip diff in a CRV..

Since the RTAWD is set up to work in Real Time, that is when the front
wheels show a loss of traction, by turning faster than the rear tires.

When the rear diff dual-pump gizmo has input from the propeller shaft going extra fast
(The transfer case is linked into the front wheel drive system), the un-equal
pressure from the shaft pump (compared to the rear-wheels pump),
shifts a piston, and engages the diff shaft-input clutch, Driving the rear wheels..
It all happens in about 0.28 seconds and turns off as soon as all four
wheels are turning at the same speed. (front wheels aren't spinning).

So, if the ice isn't too bad, the RT is over in two or three seconds.

So, your limited slip diff would only be used in the winter time for a few seconds
a week (or a month in my case).. Plus, it works just fine without the extra stuff.
I know a lot of people that drive them in snow and ice all the time.
They hardly ever get stuck.

Now that I've pulled out all that RTAWD junk, my CRV has a lot more pep.
And, I do have to be very careful not to smoke the tires.
(Never was able to Lay Rubber before)! And, I can get stuck in snow pretty easy now.

I guess you could say that the CRV has a front-to-back limited slip system..
(Expect for the FWD models they sell down south).

It would take at least one wheel in front and one rear wheel spinning on smooth ice to get you stuck.

I just acquired a 2000 CRV AWD (4WD ) with a roaring driveshaft / propeller shaft and want to take care of that problem and potentially increase MPG by converting to to 2WD . For now, I just want to remove the drive shaft . I don't want the rear Dual Pump differential to lock up or something from not having the drive shaft connected (wrong pressure, lack of lubrication ). I want to operate the vehicle that way for about year or so before removing the rear axles and rear end .

BTW- The photos in the post below are no longer viewable . Would some one some please post some new photos for this project -

- Thanks



Maybe.. Have to call up some local shops and get estimates. If it's really high, then
you know it might be hard. If some are really low, it's a DIY job.. ;)

I think this is an older Subie rear diff..
http://offroadingsubarus.com/images/welded_rear_subaru_diff_cleaning.jpg

The Honda short shaft setup looks almost the same as on this Subie..
http://www.invoauto.co.uk/images/Products/Strutbrace/AA0278-1-oncar-lrg.jpg

But, from the looks of it, there may be female sockets on each end of the short shafts.
Whereas the Honda short shafts have plug-in (male) fittings on each end.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f147/Xringer/alxe.jpg
I had to yank the outside end section off my CRV short shafts, because it's the part that keeps the rear wheels from falling off! (axial)?

The other end of the CRV short shafts plug in here:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f147/Xringer/D007.jpg
Left side of CRV rear diff, before removal.

If it's an easy DIY, you could save the parts and re-install them when you sold the car.
But, if it's a long term keeper, you might be able just to sell those parts to the shop..
Make some gas money on the deal. :)

Not many of those old pics left, even on my PC.. Maybe in my back-ups.?.
Here's a link to my CRV folder at Photobucket.. http://s46.photobucket.com/albums/f147/Xringer/CRV/
I just uploaded a few that I could find.

Anyways, if a (1999) Rear Diff is not leaking a lot, then it's going to be okay to run without the Propeller shaft.
I ran mine with no ill-effects and so have a lot of other 1999 CRV owners.
http://www.hondasuv.com/members/showthread.php?t=31745

Xringer - Thanks.

The DP rear differential is not leaking and the fluid level is normal . I will remove the driveshaft and leave the rest
(removing rear half shafts ) alone for the extended time being .

Be careful not to nail it off the light. Without the rear-wheels, You will lay rubber.

I was surprised by a quicker acceleration while on a curved entrance ramp to a highway.
I didn't realize how fast I was going, until I felt the Gees & tilt, before I slowed down some.
It seemed like I was headed for a roll-over..

I also had to take some cable slop out of my cruise control adjustment.
Because, the quicker acceleration would make the cruise control surge and back-off.
It was really noticeable when carrying a heavy load in the back (over 500 pounds).


When the prop shaft is driving the rear diff, it loads down the engine so it's always pulling hard.
That mean the CC normally wouldn't surge on a flat road. It's kinda like always going up hill.

You will get better MPG.. :)

I never missed RTAWD, since I'm retired and never "need" to drive on snowy days.. :)
MA has so many dumb drivers, even with AWD, you can still wind up getting hit by
some fool speeding on black ice..