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View Full Version : Butanol: The hot sister of ethanol?


AZBrandon
05-23-2006, 08:37 PM
http://www.butanol.com/

About a week ago I read my first article about butanol. It had a link to the above listed website which is admittedly corny and hits me as being very unprofessional appearing and would lean one to believe that butanol is perhaps yet another alternative fuel with no future.

I started doing a little more research however and the bottom line is that butanol is just another of the four major fuel alcohols comprised of methanol, ethanol, propanol, and butanol. Of the four, butanol is the least volitile, least corrosive, and has the highest octane and highest calorific content per gallon. It's also the only one that can be run in a gasoline engine unmodified unlike ethanol which needs to be mixed in with gasoline and can't be run in concentrations above 10% without special flex fuel tuning.

By the numbers, butanol looks incredible. Other than the cost (currently listed as running around $3.70/gal in bulk) it appears to be an ideal replacement for gasoline. Although the above mentioned website quotes calorific content at 64k, 84k, and 110k for the three primary fuel alcohols, other sources that I personally think are more reliable peg it at 57,000, 76,000, and 105,000 BTU per gallon for methanol, ethanol, and butanol respectively. This lets butanol compare very well against the approximate 110,000 BTU of E10 gasoline.

Now the biggest kicker is that everyone knows ethanol has a very high octane count. It has a RON of about 111 and MON of 92 for (R+M)/2 AKI "octane" of 101.5. Now since E85 is mixed with low grade gasoline, E85 falls in around 99 on the AKI scale, typically just rounded up and declared as 100 octane. Butanol however needs no mixing with gasoline, thus its values of 113 and 94 give it an AKI octane of 103.5.

Now most all modern engines, even the ones "tuned" for 92 octane fuel still have to be able to pull back timing and run on lower grades in case a thoughtless owner pumps in some 87 octane on accident. Also, 87 being the cheapest, its the fuel of choice for those trying to get the most distance per dollar of gasoline. You can only run up to around 9.5 to 10.5:1 compression on a standard gasoline engine designed for 87 octane and likely not much more than 11:1 even with direct injection.

Now if we start getting automakers to build engines exclusively for butanol, if we can throw away the notion of using gasoline on accident, then you could build an engine made specifically for it's extremely high octane and thus a compression ratio of 14 to 15:1 becomes possible. Increasing the static compression ratio by 50% will more than offset the fact the fuel has about 5% lower BTU count.

So other than the fact it appears ethanol is running $1.60/gal and butanol is $3.70/gal, why is it that butanol is all but entirely absent from the news? One would think that its ability to run in gasoline engines unmodified would be a huge selling point, especially since 91 octane fuel is currently around $3.50/gal in California anyway, so stepping up to 104 octane for another couple dimes seems like a no-brainer.

lakedude
05-23-2006, 09:02 PM
Fill'er up with Bute! Has a nice ring to it. Like a combination of Brute and Beauty.

Sounds better than "fill'er up with Bio"

or

B-100?

Hmmm B-100 sounds pretty cool, like a Bomber or something.

philmcneal
05-24-2006, 04:33 AM
good post.

Yeah i wonder why it hasn't received press if the stats on paper sounds so good? Sounds like another EV car killa case to me...

gonavy
05-24-2006, 09:20 AM
What little I know of organic chemistry, butanol is harder to produce than ETOH. You would probably distill ethanol then dimerize it (mash molecules together) to create some isomer of Butanol. Don't know how well it would scale to match ETOH output levels?

xcel
05-24-2006, 05:24 PM
Hi Brandon:

___Although Butanol may have a higher Caloric content; the price is the exact reason its not going to be a successful solution imho. Ethanol can be made for ~ $1.60 here in the US (never mind what it costs to actually purchase today) and that is very inexpensive vs. any of the other alcohol or crude based fuels. The conversion to E85 compatibility from the OEM is more along the lines of $100.00 so that is not a big expense. Octane of E85 is around 100 - 105 so if the auto manufacturers were to build an E85 or E100 specific ICE’s, they would be able to run upwards of 12:1 + before knock issues would rear their ugly head. I just do not see a market for Butanol at today’s cost when Ethanol costs < ½ to manufacture and has all the advantages of Butanol at ½ the price except for ~ 20% less FE per given quantity consumed.

___The alcohol evaportation - emissions issues do need to be considered becasue PZEV'ing an E100 based automobile is going to be a rather large problem ...

___I believe we have some news posted on MIT’s work with DI and Ethanol with the fuel in pure form or as a co-injection with std. Gasoline to cool the charge inside the cylinders before combustion to prevent detonation. I have no idea what tech will lead the way but the main item is that once the Ethanol supply/demand issues are alleviated somewhat, Ethanol has a surprisingly strong advantage over the other alcohols and crude due to price alone! Those Ethanol plants currently up and running must be making Ethanol at wide open throttle while the coffers are being filled faster then they can plan the next batch!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

lakedude
05-24-2006, 07:11 PM
Hi Brandon:

___Although Butanol may have a higher Caloric content; the price is the exact reason its not going to be a successful solution imho. Ethanol can be made for ~ $1.60 here in the US (never mind what it costs to actually purchase today) and that is very inexpensive vs. any of the other alcohol or crude based fuels.

___Wayne

According to the link:


Our preliminary cost estimates suggest that we can produce butanol from corn for about $1.20 per gallon, not including a credit for the hydrogen produced. This compares with ethanol production costs of about $1.28 per gallon.

xcel
05-24-2006, 07:28 PM
Hi Lakedude:
… butanol is $3.70/gal.

___Sorry Lakedude, I saw Brandon’s post and took it for what was posted … Probably a typo? At $1.20 per for Butanol, that changes things completely!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

AZBrandon
05-24-2006, 08:26 PM
Yeah, I only quoted the higher cost since the butanol.com figure has never been achieved in mass production yet. For all we know, there's somebody who will claim they produce ethanol for 70 cents a gallon, so I shied away from giving any weight to that claim.

At any rate, I think cost is the primary factor here. There's so many things that are viable, just at different price levels, I guess. The higher that gasoline prices go, the more viable all the alternatives become.

gonavy
05-24-2006, 10:12 PM
Hi Brandon:
Ethanol plants currently up and running must be making Ethanol at wide open throttle while the coffers are being filled faster then they can plan the next batch!


Pacific Ethanol (PEIX) has gone from ~$7/share to >$42 since December. ~$30 today. Compliments of all the factors we've beat around here. Happened to catch that on NBR last night. WOW.

I'd take >500% return! Smells like the good ol' days when I paid for grad school by flipping Ciena, JDSU, and Nortel- only those were mere 100% returns over a semester!

http://marketwatch.nytimes.com/custom/nyt-com/html-companyprofile.asp?sid=1948771&time=6mo&uf=0&x=56&y=5

note the step-function events in late Jan/early Feb...Colonial pipeline announces the end of MTBE transshipments, and April- when the changeover got down to the retailer level and the intermittent outages occurrred in the mid-Atlantic, pushing ETOH onto page 1 again. Though it had no real impact on their particular market per se (West coast)

xcel
05-24-2006, 11:57 PM
Hi Bryan:

___Remember we discussed PEIX before its run … Never did we pull the trigger however :(

E85 as an investment opportunity? (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104&highlight=PEIX)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

xcel
05-25-2006, 03:20 AM
Hi John:

___I was very close to PM’ing you this morning to receive your take give the new position as an Ethanol insider ;)

___From the MSDS’, I see some issues against Butanol and some for.

Butanol Pro’s

B 9% soluable in water <-- Very good!
E 100% soluable in water <-- Not good at all as we all know.

Con’s

B OSHA permissible exposure limit 100 ppm <-- Refueling data WRT actual concentrations reached?
E OSHA permissible exposure limit 1000 ppm

B Inhalation Hazard at 20 ppm <-- That is going to hurt.
E Inhalation Hazard at 1000 ppm

B incompatible with aluminum, copper, copper alloys <-- Aluminum? Ahh Ohh, that may be a deal breaker :(
E incompatible with platinum <-- CAT issues arising?

B spills - spills are classified as hazardous waste, and must be treated as such <-- Not good.
E spills - check with local regulations - varies by area as to classification

___Good Luck and thanks for the info.

___Wayne

phoebeisis
05-25-2006, 11:55 AM
There wouldn't be any point in making butanol from ethanol. It would take energy to reduce one of the hydroxyl groups; you would never get that energy back when you burned it. It is just like using ethanol to produce H2.
Ethanol is the way to go.Humans have been making it cheaply for 1000's of years, it isn't toxic to any great degree, it biodegrades, apparently it isn't expensive to make vehicles ethanol resistant(FFV Titans sell for the same money non FFV sell for).
It isn't extremely expensive to build a fermentation plant-or plants to produce 100% 100 ethanol. You could build lots of small,safe plants-not like they are not a huge hazard like the gasoline/diesel refinery that just blew up here near New Orleans.
Heck, they even smell pretty good!! Oil refineries stink!
Luck,Charlie

AZBrandon
05-25-2006, 08:14 PM
Wouldn't it be a little more fair to compare against E85? You can't buy ethanol! The only thing close that you can buy is E85, which of course contains gasoline which is MASSIVELY toxic and dangerous, unlike pure ethanol.



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