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Priced at $2,500, with cutting-edge manufacturing, Indian labor, no-frills (http://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSDEL19194820080110)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/tata.jpgAlistair Scrutton – Reuters - Jan 10, 2008

Just one more worry for Detroit if cars like these come to American shores - Ed

NEW DELHI - For the world's cheapest car, it was one luxury arrival.

More than 1,000 people -- journalists, VIPS and industrialists -- packed an auditorium on Thursday as Tata Motors Ltd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tata_Motors) unveiled its long-awaited "People's Car" in a media circus more worthy of a pop concert or an Oscar ceremony.

For those wanting to feel India's economic self-confidence as it takes on the world, all they had to do was to experience the blaring music from "2001: A Space Odyssey" and the flashes of scores of cameras as the Tata Nano was driven out.

It condensed years of anticipation into one moment of mayhem.

"I haven't seen this many cameras in my six years in South Asia," said one veteran journalist. "You couldn't even buy advertising like this."
… http://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSDEL19194820080110

I read a recent article that Ford Motor Co. picked Tata Motors Ltd. as the top bidder for its Jaguar and Land Rover units.

What are those, 10" wheels on that thing? I'd hate to hit a pot-hole with it. Not sure it would even make it over some speed bumps...

But it's a girlish car. I can't imagine a man would be seen in a car like this.

Expand your mind, girlfriend. I can see myself in a car like this.

If the car is a success, expect gasoline to go up at least $0.50/gallon.

All those new cars on the road, even if they get good mileage, will increase demand for gasoline, and raise the price.

Harry

I'd guess it proves popular with the younger crowd. But it's a girlish car. I can't imagine a man would be seen in a car like this.Just can't understand this perception among many that a guy driving a small car equates to him wearing a dress al la Klinger, but since it's an obsession, I propose all gas guzzlers must come only in pink.

_____________________

Safety and emissions will be a barrier, but what if Tata does and sells them for say $3,500 in the US?

I propose all gas guzzlers must come only in pink.

lol, that would be great.

Well, I can well understand them saying "I can't imagine a man would be seen in a car like this." It does look nice though, nice 2 tone paint job, 4 doors, no less!

Looking at the Tata Nano is painful to me. It immediately makes me painfully aware of what restraint of trade has done to us and this country. Capitalism and free trade would bring this and many other options our way.

Where has Capitalism gone? Can we ever regain that which made our country great, free trade?

Sigh.

Well, I can well understand them saying "I can't imagine a man would be seen in a car like this." It does look nice though, nice 2 tone paint job, 4 doors, no less!

Looking at the Tata Nano is painful to me. It immediately makes me painfully aware of what restraint of trade has done to us and this country. Capitalism and free trade would bring this and many other options our way.

Where has Capitalism gone? Can we ever regain that which made our country great, free trade?

Sigh.

Capitalism? Free trade? No way. We need more and more and more protection from ourselves. We need central planning and all its virtues. :D

To say India and China are exporting their product so successfully because of pure capitalism is erronous. Ironically, China does not have healthcare for their workers anything like Americans do (and that's not saying a lot), nor does it have a pension system... i.e. the average Chinese employee is treated like circa 1900 in the "evil" capitalist United States. ;) Then there is the outsoucing of pollution...Chinese industry is getting very bad press for safe (pet) food, lead in toys, toxic waste, and air pollution.

If the Chinese and Indians worked under the same environment the West did, the trade imbalance would make major adjustments in our favor.

Its worth noting some of the "frills" this car is missing.


A Wiper
The ability to go over 45mph without disintegrating (60mph will toast the axles)
Leveled Headlamps
Any sort of safety engineering. I-Beams, Crumple Zones, Airbags.

Its worth noting some of the "frills" this car is missing.

A Wiper
The ability to go over 45mph without disintegrating (60mph will toast the axles)
Leveled Headlamps
Any sort of safety engineering. I-Beams, Crumple Zones, Airbags.Where are the links to this? I'd like to read it...and I'm not doubting you.

Hi Chuck:

___For $2,500, you are not going to get anything worthy of your safety. I was looking at a small 2.0L diesel SUV GM launched in India the other day and it only had front air-bags and seat belts :rolleyes: I believe the only thing the Tata has is seatbelts but I will have to look it up.

___India’s already poor emissions standards, (there are basically none) can only be made worse with a vehicle like this although I do not have the complete details. In other words, we will not be seeing the TATA here.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

So... ta-ta to the TaTa?

It is interesting to see that a complete vehicle can be constructed for that price, but there is no way I would trust my life to one of those. Does it even have a speed governor in it to prevent this "toasting of the axels?"

Some of warthhog's assertions are mentioned here (http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jQWovbLOUlK2ilNvpr20PJwlFNQg).

Tata says the Nano is cleaner than the two cycle scooters they are likely to replace - not a high standard at all. They are also hoping to sell a million annually...India's middle class is expected to reach a half billion by 2020.

BBC reported the rising cost of steel might make a $2,500 price tag impossible.

It is probably powered by a dirty little two strock? H

It is probably powered by a dirty little two strock? HSince Tata says it's cleaner than a two-stroke scooter, the 33hp engine is probably four-stroke.

Anyone want to bet if it has an OBDII interface for ScanGage? :D

someone at my drive-your-pickup-fast workplace saw this this morning, and was poking fun at it. chuck beat me to posting it. i think it's going to add more pollution to an already ailing country. on the other hand, maybe driving it will help reduce the population :p

Hm... 33hp? Maybe it is an old air cooled VW Beetle engine? 36hp + catalytic converter? :D

More info here:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/01/tata-motors-unv.html#more


Harry

Here's another story about the Tata.

http://www.forbes.com/markets/2008/01/10/tata-motors-nano-markets-equity-cx_rd_0110markets05.html?feed=rss_markets

and one from the Trib.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-india-ultracheapcar,0,2491736.story

These mention some but not all of the compromises on the Tata.

Unfortunately, as happens sometimes, the CNN story I saw appears to have been "corrected" to a more PC version. I took notes on a legal pad yesterday, but the link now points to a much more positive story.

And if you don't believe me, look for a story on this posted yesterday before 6PM CST. They've all been wiped. Yet, I was talking about the unveiling with two coworkers at 5:30.

warthog,

Thank you for the links. :)

The Nano's engine is rear-mounted, so does this mean it can go off the road when overturning like the Corvair?

Delta:

I'm not sure about going off the road, but I wouldn't want to be in the passenger compartment if it rolls.

RLC:
No Governor. The Axle is a hollow tube instead of solid steel, so according to the company, 45-top is "emergency use only". Also, you'll figure it out when the axle flies apart. No Joke.

Hi WH:
The Axle is a hollow tube instead of solid steel, so according to the company, 45-top is "emergency use only". Also, you'll figure it out when the axle flies apart. No Joke.

___That was actually quite humorous! Except for the poor guy or gal who has to drive the POS :(

___Thanks for the links too!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I'm about to confuse a Yugo with a Volvo in this context. :eek:

Its worth noting some of the "frills" this car is missing.


A Wiper
The ability to go over 45mph without disintegrating (60mph will toast the axles)
Leveled Headlamps
Any sort of safety engineering. I-Beams, Crumple Zones, Airbags.


It does have a single wiper.

It does have a crumple zone.

It is probably powered by a dirty little two strock? H

It is a two cylinder with multi point fuel injection, not a two stroke.

Is the whole car the crumple zone? :eek:

It does have a single wiper.

It does have a crumple zone.


Thus, it is missing a wiper. I, like most drivers, prefer being able to see out the entire windshield in rain/snow/whatever.

Also, the "crumple zone" is a laugh. Saying that the windshield and light sheet metal make a crumple zone is like saying the FFV Suburban is a hybrid.

Several automakers use only one wiper in the front. Mercedes does IIRC.

Wouldn't take much of a dent to total the car in terms of insurance, would it?

Harry

Hi Earthling:

___That depends? If it costs $100K in medical bills in the event of a 10 mph fender bender, insurance could become prohibitive pretty quickly ;)

___I know we are making fun about a sub-quality car but for an Indian needing something, it will hopefully beat the 2 stroke motorbike in terms of both FE and emissions? We can only hope anyway?

___Than again, the $4,000 Yugo could go down the road at 45 mph without worrying about the wheels falling off … Sort of anyway :D We all know how that vehicle turned out :rolleyes:

___Good Luck

___Wayne

stupid yugo joke:

guy goes into an auto parts store and asks the guy behind the counter "can you give me a gas cap for a yugo?"

he responds "sounds like an even exchange to me"



:p:p:p

Hi Laurie:
Guy goes into an auto parts store and asks the guy behind the counter "can you give me a gas cap for a yugo?"

he responds "sounds like an even exchange to me"
___Best one I have heard in a while :D :D :D

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Ummm

I think this needs some perspective

India per capita income is only about $800 (vs. US aprrox $30,000) , for Delhi per capita income is $1,600 so the cost is approx 2-3 times annual income.
But the gasoline cost is about the same or higher, 10,000miles at 50mpg per annum about $800. What % of population will find themselves suddenly able to buy this car and pay for the gas? This is a very large population so it will increase world demand in the short term but in the age of peak oil supply constraints, those most able to pay for gasoline (OECD) will move on from current $94 per barrel(very cheap) to a price that will destroy this demand in lower income countries.

Good Luck
Andrew

Only 50 mpg on this thing!! Or that's what I heard. That sounds pretty bad for a toy car.
(BTW, one wiper on a toy car isn't so bad.)
I bet I could get 70, though where I would want to try this is another story (the sidewalk?)
Hilarious Yugo joke! :-)

--des

Current Indian demand is slightly over 1 million cars and about 7 million '2 wheelers' a year. As anyone who has been to India can attest - the 2 wheelers are polluting frightening death traps.

The 1 lahk car (aka 100,000 rupees) represents 2 years wages for a skilled factory worker in India. I suspect it represents 10 years wages for a poor farmer. Tata isn't going to sell more than 150,000 to 250,000 of these a year. They buyers will be young Engineers.

All of you who are crowing about this 'toy car' sound quite similar to those Pick-up truck drivers who describe our cars as rice burners.

This car is much much safer than the 1960's VW's and has about the same power. Why all everyone is laughing at the 33 HP engine ?

Us hypermilers should applaud this car !

Current Indian demand is slightly over 1 million cars and about 7 million '2 wheelers' a year. As anyone who has been to India can attest - the 2 wheelers are polluting frightening death traps.

The 1 lahk car (aka 100,000 rupees) represents 2 years wages for a skilled factory worker in India. I suspect it represents 10 years wages for a poor farmer. Tata isn't going to sell more than 150,000 to 250,000 of these a year. They buyers will be young Engineers.

All of you who are crowing about this 'toy car' sound quite similar to those Pick-up truck drivers who describe our cars as rice burners.

This car is much much safer than the 1960's VW's and has about the same power. Why all everyone is laughing at the 33 HP engine ?

Us hypermilers should applaud this car !

Oh but it is kind of funny isn't it? I think we are mostly just having fun, no?
As a hypermiling vehicle, I think I mentioned that one could do pretty well (might be limitations, as I am very surprised they are determining 50 mpg with no A/C and less than aggressive driving conditions, though may be very stop and go!) As a hypermiling vehicle it would have to be a serious contender in a first world country, which I think it is not. (Compare to Smart.) Obviously it is designed for Asian third world economies.

The comparisons with the VW may be accurate, only difference would be that they had the VW (and several other tiny cars to work from). I don't know what the original Beetle sold for. The VW also was a more versatile car with more advanced technology, by the sound of. I think this is more of a riding lawn mower and frame.

I would imagine the speeds that they can actually go at are going to be around 25 mpg. The streets are pretty darn crowded with an assortment of people, bike, and car traffic and still amazing traffic jams. So safety may not be quite as much of an issue. I don't think there will be many people actually trying to go at 45.

It's too bad there isn't funding for some really innovative type of research in small very high FE for this area of the world, I am thinking in the order of 100 mpg. Without this, this little Tata could add to the already bad situation there in terms of air quality. OTOH, you want these countries to be able to develop a higher standard of living.

Compare to one laptop per child. http://www.laptopgiving.org/en/give-a-laptop.php
Here is a wifi computer, solar powered, virually unbreakable, you can sit it in the rain, etc. This is real innovation.
But a laptop is cheaper than a car.

Ok, there's your serious answer.



--des

Thanks, Vooch. Your comments apply to the Smart car thread, too.

Thanks, Vooch. Your comments apply to the Smart car thread, too.

Actually they don't. The Smart represents some serious technology and safety standards for use in the first world. I don't think the Tata is quite there. It might actually be all that you can do for this sort of money. I think it is more covered motorcycle, golf cart really.

(BTW, I don't see that people here have been knocking the Smart! I think several of us might want one! )

--des

The firm also said it would introduce a diesel version of the Nano at a later date.

that's what i'm waiting for. a diesel should get at least 70mpg. it would be really nice if they'd build a nano, diesel pickup.

Vooch,

I guess we got a bit hard on the Nano.

In the back of my mind, this seemed similar to the Honda Z600 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Z600) keicar of the early 70's (which reportedly got 136mpg at 30mph).

That leads to another thought - where will Tata be ten years from now?

Des said;

It's too bad there isn't funding for some really innovative type of research in small very high FE for this area of the world, I am thinking in the order of 100 mpg. Without this, this little Tata could add to the already bad situation there in terms of air quality. OTOH, you want these countries to be able to develop a higher standard of living.

--des

That is what I am waiting for, Des. The way gas prices are going I think we all are going to need some real serious insulation from those prices! It would mostly be used for the short ride to the grocery store, etc.

Bob.

Vooch,

I guess we got a bit hard on the Nano.

In the back of my mind, this seemed similar to the Honda Z600 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Z600) keicar of the early 70's (which reportedly got 136mpg at 30mph).

That leads to another thought - where will Tata be ten years from now?

I think we should keep our minds open. Perhaps they will learn VERY fast. :-)

--des

In the back of my mind, this seemed similar to the Honda Z600 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Z600) keicar of the early 70's (which reportedly got 136mpg at 30mph).

Wow! Wouldn't that be an awesome hypermiling platform?? P&G to hit 200+mpg???

The Nano seems a decent enough vehicle for its intended market/use, but I really worry about things like those hollow axels. Not having protection and having dangerous construction are two different things.

As for making fun of 33hp -- not me! I got around just fine in the old VW Bug. Sure it was slow to accelerate, but who cares? If you are going any reasonable distance it is the steady state speed that matters for "normal driving" -- not the acceleration rate. Everything else is so short time-wise that the added time for acceleration is really easy to deal with.

A year ago when I first read on the Honda Z600, apparently Honda had a 100mpg vehicle a quarter century before the Insight.

amerikanz are a fool hearty lot. jimmy carter warned us of an energy crisis long ago and the need for conservation et.... but the people just said "NO" to reality and voted in droves for Ronald Raygunz. shortly thereafter, gas went down to .59/gal. "YIPPIE, we were saved by The Gipper!" they cried.... so they put him back in office for more of the same. not wanting to give up on the dream, they then voted Daddy Bush into The White House and repulicans were riding high in congress. it was business as usual and Ford was advertising, "the biggest SUV ever built.". YIPPIE! pollution smollution they thought.... and oil; why we'll just go fight for it! (i actually heard people say this)... now, our troops are in the mid-east doing just that...

conclusion: the amerikan people would rather sacrifice a loved one to an unnecessary war than drive a fuel efficient vehicle.

The Nano is a good car for its mission. Sacrifice everything but 4 wheels and an engine for low cost.

There is nothing wrong with this.

However, somebody asked if it would be coming to the USA, implying (to me) that this was comparable to 1st world cars, but cheaper than TNCs would price their cars. This scares me.

Yes, USA available cars need upgrading. However, don't forget that some of the "better FE" cars from the 80's were that way for a reason.

How many people would squeeze themselves into a 80's subcompact on a regular basis? What about crashworthiness? How many people would want to be in an old Metro or CRX if there was a serious wreck?

Just food for thought.

PS- TAB, please learn how to spell. At least bother to get the country right. It's very difficult to read a post with major spelling and punctuation errors.

Even a Metro or CRX would be a lot more crashworthy than the Nano, based on what I've seen and heard.

Even a Metro or CRX would be a lot more crashworthy than the Nano, based on what I've seen and heard.

I'm sure this is so. Though I'm not sure for its intended market it would be that big an issue. I have seen pictures of Indian streets. Either you couldn't go that fast due to traffic. Or you get to go on side and back roads where it couldn't actually go anyway. Heck I coulda used a Nano today! (what with a traffic jam/accident and about 5 mph traffic).

I'm not really funning it because I think it is a bad idea. A little worried about it for sure. I think the US and other Western countries need to get really serious about fuel economy, this thing will not drink nothing. With potentially thousands of them on the streets they will work into the oil and as I said, we need to get serious about it.
It may be a potential pollution problem for Indians who live in about the second most polluted country on earth.

As to going to streets where someone could actually get to 45 mph, I don't think it is going to happen. Might be a problem if it got to one of the more prosperous Asian tigers, say, Singapore, which I am sure has faster speeds, more highways, more cars, etc.

--des

As to going to streets where someone could actually get to 45 mph, I don't think it is going to happen. Might be a problem if it got to one of the more prosperous Asian tigers, say, Singapore, which I am sure has faster speeds, more highways, more cars, etc.

--des


Singapore is probably not the best example, they have very high taxes on cars to keep their use down.

http://www.expatsingapore.com/content/view/1152

and the per capita income is high. Crash safety requirements for more prosperous Asian tigers are probably closer to US or Europe than India, I would have to check it out.

Having seen Toyotas early cars who can say where they will be in 10 years.

Now if it had been a BEV ....... I would have applauded.:(

Good Luck
Andrew

PS- TAB, please learn how to spell. At least bother to get the country right. It's very difficult to read a post with major spelling and punctuation errors.
Reply With Quote

um, da missed-spellingz wur in-tensional. :rolleyes:

for those who are concerned about safety, this car is a better option. i saw it crash tested on Tee Vee into a full-size mercedes. unfortunately the diesel version won't be sold in the USA or Canada. pisses me right off.

http://www.smartcarofamerica.com/smart_car_models/green_smart_cars/smart_diesel_powered_car.html

Honda 600

A girlfriend of mine had one when I was a senior in High school - it was a perfect 1st car.

But lots of cars got incredible MPG during the late 70's and early 80's - That era's Corolla would get 45-50 HWY MPG.

I had a 1987 Honda Civc HB ($5,700 brand new) which had soemthing like a 60 HP engine, HWY was way over 40MPG.

BTW - whoever said the Nano will rarely see more the 25 MPH is correct. Indian roads are so packed that it is impossible to drive fast at all.

Honda 600

A girlfriend of mine had one when I was a senior in High school - it was a perfect 1st car.

But lots of cars got incredible MPG during the late 70's and early 80's - That era's Corolla would get 45-50 HWY MPG.

I had a 1987 Honda Civc HB ($5,700 brand new) which had soemthing like a 60 HP engine, HWY was way over 40MPG.

BTW - whoever said the Nano will rarely see more the 25 MPH is correct. Indian roads are so packed that it is impossible to drive fast at all.

Well of course way back when things were just cheaper. :-)
Don't know how the Indian dollar (or rupee might work) and how comparable it is.
That might be me that said it won't go faster than 25 mostly. Not only are their streets packed but they have an array of cars, pedestrians, bikes, etc. that will slow them down. It's like the question, would you drive a golf cart? On a US highway no. But on a golf course (of course I don't golf, so that would be an issue. :-)), yes. Or a riding mower? It depends on context. So on Indian streets, yeah. But US streets, no possibility. I doubt any Indians would want to either.

I think its the same question that gets raised for the Aptera actually. IS this something highway worthy in the US? Sure if I could go on side streets, in certain climates (here for instance), it would be workable. But we don't know re: other situations.

--des

The Nano reminds me of the Citroen 2CV, Renault 4, and similar inexpensive, basic transportation cars that were produced in Europe following WWII for people who were transitioning from motorcycles and motor scooters to cars following the economic collapse created by the war. Like the Nano, they were 2 to 3 cylinder, 16 to 30hp cars with a maximum speed of about 45 to 60mph. Unlike the Nano with its manual roll down windows, these 1950's cars often had windows that folded open on hidges or or slid on horizontal slides to open.

The Nano reminds me of the Citroen 2CV, Renault 4, and similar inexpensive, basic transportation cars that were produced in Europe following WWII for people who were transitioning from motorcycles and motor scooters to cars following the economic collapse created by the war. Like the Nano, they were 2 to 3 cylinder, 16 to 30hp cars with a maximum speed of about 45 to 60mph. Unlike the Nano with its manual roll down windows, these 1950's cars often had windows that folded open on hidges or or slid on horizontal slides to open.Check out Finding Vehicles of the Future in the Microcars of the Past (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7580&highlight=microcar)

The 2CV was a awesome car - our 4WD friends should note the original specs:

"Pierre-Jules Boulanger's early 1930s design brief – said by some to be astonishingly radical for the time – was for a low-priced, rugged "umbrella on four wheels" that would enable two peasants to drive 100 kg (220 lb) of farm goods to market at 60 km/h (37 mph), in clogs and across muddy unpaved roads if necessary. France at that time had a very large rural population, who had not yet adopted the automobile, due to its cost. The car would use no more than 3 litres of gasoline to travel 100 km. Most famously, it would be able to drive across a ploughed field without breaking the eggs it was carrying. Boulanger later also had the roof raised to allow him to drive while wearing a hat."

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