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Money matters. It's the speed bump in the road that forces us to slow down -- whether we want to or not.
(http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=12271)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/Chevrolet_Camaro.jpgEric Peters - The American Spectator – Nov 6, 2007

Note this is coming from a conservative publication - Ed

Here's an irony for you:

In the 1980s, as gasoline got cheaper, American automakers downsized their fleets -- switching from heavier and rear-wheel-drive to lighter and front-wheel-drive. V-8s, if they were allowed at all, got small; 5.7 liters was about as big as it got. Most cars came with fours or sixes. It was the way of the future.

Now, gas is expensive -- almost twice what it was circa '86, in fact. And American automakers have responded with ever-bigger, ever-heavier cars. Rear-wheel-drive and V-8s are back, big time.

But just a bit too late, probably.
… http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=12271

This looks like a blatant case of bad management: failure to take a long-term view, to do long-term planning for success.

Harry

I really think the future holds a market for these cars, but not as primary cars as secondary cars. There is money in the economy to support this. This, IMHO, is why over the last 2 years that I have been commuting on a motorcycle I have seen a dramatic increase in motorcycles and subcompacts like the Yaris and Scions. 2 years ago I didn't see any of these, now I see at least 50 subcompacts a day, and 30-40 motorcycles(I spend more time at the same speed with the bikes so I see less of them that are on the road). I wish I saw more vanpools.

Greed and excess always come back to bite you in the arse.

Not if you have enough to buy your way out of it like many celebrities and uber-wealthy in this country.

I do like the looks of that new Camaro.

1234567890

Too true, makes me glad I have no car payments, and two low payment(for California) mortgages.

I saw a local

Yeah I get kind of annoyed when I hear people complaining about fuel prices and oil company profits. From everything I have read their profit margins haven't increased significantly but their profits have. Tells me people are more than willing to spend the money on more expensive fuel, and more of it. Stupid people, stop complaining about companies making a profit until you are willing to stop giving them your money. :rolleyes:

And a Prius can get "can go 30-40 percent farther on a gallon of fuel." than a 15mpg 2008 Pontiac G8 GT:confused:. Guess the authors strong suit was not math! That would give a Prius 21 mpg city. Wow!:Banane34:

Stupid people, stop complaining about companies making a profit until you are willing to stop giving them your money

A true moment of clarity

Oh, we don't need to conserve fuel, it will last forever in abundant supplies! And if it doesn't, all those smart scientists will figure something out, no need for me to worry about that stuff myself!

Note-Possible sarcasm in this post :rolleyes:

I don't get too worked up about high performance sports cars like the Camaro. Their utility is limited enough that they only sell a few thousand a year, and they're small enough not to present the dire hazard to the lives around them that big trucks do. It's the explosion of large trucks (both trucks and SUVs, and by large I mean >5000 pounds) with more powerful engines and wider appeal that bothers me.

----

Back to the main point of the article, I think it's a good one (despite the source): a lot of us had better start thinking about getting more sensible with our transportation, but the automakers aren't giving us many choices in that arena.

But then it goes on to say that the high gas prices are here now and "this time we don't get a grace period." Well, that's not true. We didn't get a grace period thee first time either. While it did ultimately become true that "GM, Ford and Chrysler went on crash diets. Almost overnight, RWD became an acronym for out-of-date dinosaur," it emphatically did not happen "overnight." It took years of pain to both consumers and automakers. The big fuel crunches hit in 1973-74 and 1979. The fuel efficient FWD compacts so admired by this writer weren't offered by American automakers (in the form of GM's Citation/Phoenix/Skylark "X-cars", Chrysler's Aries/Reliant "K-cars", and Ford's Escort) until 1980 and 1981. And it wasn't really until well about the mid 80s that FWD was available across the spectrum and RWD appeared to be approaching obsolescence.

For the first few years of the 70s gas crunches, most of us struggled to make do with the cars we had, or with the somewhat downsized but still relatively thirsty RWD cars offered by the Big 3. Even the 4cyl compacts offered by Detroit in the 70s were RWD, thirstier than today's compacts, and extremely crude -- to the point that we make fun of them to this very day: Ford Pinto. Chevette. Vega. Nova. Dodge Dart. AMC Pacer. Gremlin. The fact that comedians can still occasionally get laughs from any one of these nameplates -- despite the fact that the majority of their audience wasn't yet born when these cars were built -- tells you what a joke they truly were.

Of course there were a few visionary weirdos buying those oddball imports like Honda Civic CVCCs, Toyota Corollas, Mazda GLCs and Datsun B-210s. These were the foot in the door that enabled those previously unknown automakers to challenge the Big 3 and ultimately outpace them. And the later VW Rabbit, arriving about the same time and with a similar but superior design to Detroit's FWD compacts, allowed that company plunge headfirst into the mainstream and get past its image as supplier of cute but cantankerous compacts to the counterculture.

By blindly continuing focus their efforts on oversized, overpowered dinosaurs the Big 3 are once again setting up for someone else to eat their lunch. In other words, history about to repeat itself. Whether as tragedy (tens of thousands of American autoworkers lose their jobs) or as farce (Another gov't bailout, probably of GM this time, led by the next Lee Iacocca) -- or both -- remains to be seen.

The Toyota Corolla in the 70s was rear wheel drive.
The Mazda GLC introduced in the late 70s was rear wheel drive.
The Datsuns were also rear wheel drive until the 80s.

I don't remember if the early Hondas where, I don't think so. BTW almost all of these cars could achieve over 35 MPG, and some over 40MPG, even with rear wheel drive. I knew a guy in high school whose dad was an early japanese import fanatic. He owned all of the above, and more. He had a B210 that was his road race car and it was FAST. He could stomp on Corvettes, Porsches, and Mustangs on the 80's easily and still got 30MPG. Not much to that car tho.

I had a 71' Honda 600 sedan, front wheel drive, 600cc engine, averaged mid 40's for mileage. Also had a '78 Datsun B210, 5 speed, for over 15 years. It was rated by the EPA at 50mpg highway fuel economy.

Makes me want to find one and restore it for a commuter and toy. I'll bet with the right mods and driving style you could get one of those Datsuns up to 60MPG.

Now, gas is expensive -- almost twice what it was circa '86, in fact.

I saw something on TV this evening that said that our current gasoline prices are actually lower than the early-80's gasoline prices, if you adjust for inflation.

That may make sense, if you look at the American public's lack of reaction the last two years to increases in gasoline prices. Apparently, we need to go higher to get their attention. We are going higher. Let the whining begin.

First whining, then downsizing. If that's what it takes...

Harry

Yeah and I wasn't making nearly as much back in the 80's as I am now.




Of course I was still in High School.:D

The Toyota Corolla in the 70s was rear wheel drive.
The Mazda GLC introduced in the late 70s was rear wheel drive.
The Datsuns were also rear wheel drive until the 80s.

I don't remember if the early Hondas where, I don't think so. BTW almost all of these cars could achieve over 35 MPG, and some over 40MPG, even with rear wheel drive. I knew a guy in high school whose dad was an early japanese import fanatic. He owned all of the above, and more. He had a B210 that was his road race car and it was FAST. He could stomp on Corvettes, Porsches, and Mustangs on the 80's easily and still got 30MPG. Not much to that car tho.Good point. I'm pretty sure the early Hondas were FWD, and possibly also the early 2WD Subarus, but I think you're right that the others were RWD until about the same time the Detroit FWDs came around. The imports still got better FE than the domestic compacts though, which (along with higher quality) was a bigger reason they made all the inroads against the US automakers.

There are inherent advantages to RWD - weight distribution and better traction in rain and dry. Some of the more technologically advanced cars on the road today have RWD. It is less efficient? - sure. But don't call it obsolete. BMW (as an example) will shave weight, work on valve timing, hybrid drive system, exhaust heat recapture, turbodiesel and keep RWD.

For the most part part the auto makers do not build FWD because it is a more efficient layout. They do it because it is less complicated, uses less parts, and is lighter. The lighter aspect is the only one that helps with FE, and this can be overcome using lightweight composite components, especially if properly designed to reduce weight and spread the forces over a larger area of the car. For the most part auto makers are saving money by building FWD vehicles. The better companies use the cost savings, simplicity, and light weight to improve mileage.

Another thing to consider with RWD is the weight distribution. All things equal a RWD vehicle will have better traction in acceleration compared to a FWD vehicle. I know its a stretch but better traction does give you less wasted power. Think about it, why does a 20 year old Datsun(B210 50MPG) get better mileage than the newest small Nissan(Sentra 32MPG)?

As an engineer I believe that things like FE are entirely influenced by designing for FE, and not just about drivetrain layout. You can build a high mileage RWD vehicle, and it can be affordable, reliable, and comfortable. Its just not done much anymore, but I think that its/will change. Even Chevy got he Corvette over 20 MPG, and the newer ones have more power than ever(The Z06 with over 500HP is rated at under 20MPG).