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The EPA is finally improving its antiquated mileage-rating system for cars and trucks. (http://www.popsci.com/popsci/automotivetech/1601278451cca010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html)

Rich Beattie - Popular Science - May, 2006

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/EPA_Test_Revision_Smashes_Hybrids.jpg

SMASHING EXPECTATIONS: Under the EPA’s new mileage-rating system, the window labels of 2008 cars and light trucks will drop between 10 and 20 percent for city driving and 5 and 15 percent for highway. For hybrids, watch out: The estimated city mileage will plummet 20 to 30 percent.

The difference between expectations and reality can be brutal. Just ask anyone with a hybrid car. Enticed by impressive mileage estimates, drivers pony up thousands of dollars extra, only to find that their on-road miles per gallon never live up to the sticker’s promise. Conventional-car owners, too, have long complained about the discrepancy between the estimate of fuel economy and the reality of gas consumption, but the gap is an especially bitter pill for anyone who has spent a year on a waiting list.

Now the Environmental Protection Agency is coming clean about what “miles per gallon” really means—and mpg averages for both conventional and hybrid vehicles are set to nosedive. In January the agency, under mounting pressure from consumers and environmentalists, finally agreed to upgrade its 20-year-old testing system to determine mileage ratings for cars and trucks. The plan is to implement three new tests that will be more accurate and “better reflect the way most people drive,” says EPA spokesperson John Millett. The new regulations will be fully phased in by fall 2007, when 2008 models debut.

The proposed changes would bring several additional elements into the testing lab: cold-weather conditions; higher speeds and more rapid acceleration; and the use of air-conditioning. Most experts agree that the tests will provide more accurate estimates that better reflect modern engines and driving conditions. Compared with 1985, when the EPA last revised its testing methods, today’s vehicles are more powerful, speed limits are higher, there’s more stop-and-go traffic, and A/C comes standard.

But some experts worry that the EPA tests will disproportionately penalize high-mileage vehicles with small engines, such as gas-electric hybrids. The Prius and its kin use a battery as a second source of onboard power, which doesn’t produce as much energy in cold weather. The engine consumes more gas to make up the difference. And because of their smaller engines, hybrids are also more sensitive to A/C use. As a result, a gas guzzler’s number could dip from 20 mpg to 18, and a hybrid’s city estimate of 60 mpg could plunge to 42.

“We’re concerned that sales will drop too,” says John German, formerly with the EPA and now a hybrid-vehicle expert at Honda. That, he says, would be an unfortunate outcome, since hybrids will still get better gas mileage than nearly every gas-powered vehicle currently on the market.

The other worrisome issue, industry experts say, is that the new EPA tests will do nothing to improve overall fuel economy in the U.S. That’s because the Department of Transportation has its own set of calculations to regulate fuel-efficiency standards, known as the Corporate Average Fuel Economy rules, for automakers. Under the CAFE rules, the mandated average fuel economy for passenger cars is just 27.5 miles per gallon. Increasing that standard is the only way to force manufacturers to devise new fuel-efficient technologies, says Brendan Bell, clean-vehicle spokesperson for the Sierra Club. Bell puts the new EPA changes this way: “It’s like the doctor can now give a more accurate diagnosis, but you’re still not getting a prescription for the disease.”

I think yota and honda will come thru the adjustment in good shape. I was very happy given the conditions to see my Civic get a EPA HWY ave. for our recent trip.

Ripping it around town , smoking the tires, racing and all sorts of other insanity, netted a short tank of 29 mpg when it was brand spanking new.

I dont see a problem concerning my cars. :)

We all know that there is nothing wrong with the EPA estimates. Lowering them makes it seem OK to waste fuel. Just because 95% of drivers exceed the speed limit doesn't make it right. In most states the max speed is 65-70MPH. In my experience, if you drive 65-70 with cruise control, your car will achieve the EPA Highway estimate. By lowering the highway estimate, the EPA is saying that it is OK to speed.

dunno what the problem is...we here are all beating the current inflated #s now. Isn't everyone? :)

This just means that "Elite Hypermiler" status will have to be revised for anyone driving an '08 or later vehicle. We're going to have to make people double the EPA numbers or something ;).

Quote from Article: {For hybrids, watch out: The estimated city mileage will plummet 20 to 30 percent.}

Have any of you done a Post just knowing in the back of your mind that it is not going to be very Popular with the Majority of Readers?

Well here's that very Post. I'm personally glad that the EPA is revising the MPG Estimates. Reason, They are not accurate and for the most part the American Public and EPA already knows this. If you drive my HCH II as I do every day in the stop and go short commute trips with the A/C on. I can tell you that you are not going to get 49 MPG City. Can you get the 49 MPG EPA rating? Yes: But not by driving in any normal manner with A/C in use and driving at somewhat the speed of traffic around you. How do I come to this Conclusion? I drive a New HCH II every day and I am seeing the MPG Average drop as I use up more of my remaining Gas from the last tank of gas from the trip back from Ky. at Easter.

I do-not drive aggressive, speed from Stop Lights/Signs, No-70-80 MPH Speeds, I have the A/C set on 78 Deg. and not used if it is not like an Oven in the car. As I said earlier, I am glad that the EPA is adjusting the MPG Estimates so that for the most part if a person drives in a normal, Non-Aggressive manner that they will see that they are Exceeding the New EPA Estimates. I work at a dealership and I can tell you that the EPA Ratings that are on the Window Sticker for City/Hwy. are almost (Never-Met). If you get near the City rating your fortunate and I can tell you that there are very few owners that are getting even close to the city rating. In the past I have driven and owned the SVT Ford Lighting Pickups. They used gas like a Semi Tractor Trailer Truck. I even set the cruise on them and they still only got so many MPG and that was it. Not the City EPA Ratings, much less the HWY. Rating.

If the ratings stay where they are. I can see where it is even going to be Slower for the Manufactures to change the technology to improve on the FE of all vehicles and this includes the (Hybrids) that do-not get there EPA Ratings for FE either. Once again I am speaking of the average driver. Example's: My wife Cathy, Wayne's wife Marian, Psyshack's wife, and I just don't remember the rest of the members here and their spouces names. I am trying here to point out that these Ladies drive just like the Majority of Americans and they Do-Not get the FE Ratings that are now set by the EPA. How many times have all of us made comments about our Spouces and their complete lack of caring or worrying about their FE while driving. Heres what my wife just said the other evening. Honey I do good to just drive and get to where I am going without having a (Wreck) and If I added to that trying to increase my FE like you and the Members on www.CleanMPG.com (http://www.cleanmpg.com/) I would have a Wreck or Cause one. I am not that good a driver in the 1st place.

For the Ladies that are members here on this Forum. Like Tarabell, you do an excellent job of getting the most out of your HCH II. Your Post here certainly show that. So as not to infer that Ladies are bad drivers and cannot drive for FE would certainly be a (Major-Injustice) to you and the other Ladies that are comfortable driving their vehicles. My wife in her case and alot of the Ladies she works with are just not comfortable driving and to add to that trying to drive for increased FE would be in Her-Opinion a Disaster.

I also am a member of the Prius Forum and I'm sure some of you have read those members comments about the Prius and the (Actual FE) that the Prius gets. It doesn't and Honda made a point to say that a certain percentage of owners would get close to their 49 City-51 Hwy. ratings. Point Honda was smart to add this comment knowing that owners for the most part were not going to get the advertised FE on the Window Sticker.

Just in closing before anyone hear Blows a Gasket. All of us know or should know that this Forum was set up to (Increase FE) for owners of any vehicle. This post is not in anyway down-playing the importance of this Forum and the Obvious Results of Members here that utilize the many-many Tips from the Members here. Their Excellent Results from using some or all of these methods are now being Posted in the Data Base. This Post is Only addressing the Question on the EPA revising their MPG Estimates.

Well, this has turned out to be a very lengthy Post and I hope that it does not get to many members up in arms.

Just my opinion on this subject.

Terry, I agree with you about the city estimates. But the highway estimates are achievable by the vast majority of drivers if they set cruise control at the speed limit, even while using AC. Lowering the highway estimates to reflect the fact that most people speed makes no sense to me. It just validates speeders when they break the law.

It's just crazy. I consistently get 56 MPG from my 04 Prius. I drive with traffic and anticipate stops better than most people and accelerate slightly slower than the median but not in the bottom third of drivers. My wife has been getting better and is now turning in tanks of better than 58 MPG in her 05 Prius. This is up from a 52 MPG average for her.

They shouldn't change the EPA estimates and Prius owners should put some air in their tires and learn to drive their cars better. This doesn't apply to those in very cold climates or those with short commutes. I know several people with Prius and all but one are getting above 50 MPG on average now. My wife has driven 24,000 miles now and only has one tank below 50 MPG. We get 45 MPG only when driving at or above 75 mph. That is too fast in the current and future energy crisis.

I'm with Krousdb

People have not paid much attention in the past. Hybrids willl get better and more price competitive in the coming years. There will be more diesel choices.

I hope the EPA revises the old figures to reflect the new formula (of course it would be an estimate).

Terry, I agree with you about the city estimates. But the highway estimates are achievable by the vast majority of drivers if they set cruise control at the speed limit, even while using AC. Lowering the highway estimates to reflect the fact that most people speed makes no sense to me. It just validates speeders when they break the law.
Dan;

I am on the same page as far as the Hwy. mileage and the use of cruise. Just as a further comment I am agreeing as far as the Hybrids are concerned. The larger Trucks/Suv's we sell I don't think they do well even with the cruise. The speeding part goes without saying. Speed and the FE suffers greatly.:)

I still think yota and honda are going to do ok thru the reset. They will take some hits,,, but still produce the stars. I know in my gut the r18a in my Civic will be a star. The K-series will do good also. And honda and yota's hybrid lines will do just fine.

Trucks, Suv's, Large Sedan's are going to take a beating.

Dont worry about it. :)

Hi All:

___I personally cannot wait to see the new numbers on the stickers but oh my god will they be a mess to contend with in terms of hypermiler status ;) With that, the Prius II is one automobile where A/C does not appear to make as large a dent in your average as compared to an Insight for example. When you turn A/C on in an Insight, lean burn is simply gone and without lean burn, you are in a world of hurt. Given Terry’s previous description of A/C use (electrical only) in his HCH-II, I doubt the hit is as large in it either. I will never forget the 86 mpg - 30 mile RT segment the Prius II owning couple had with A/C running last August on the marathon course during a clinic. Take those hills, that traffic, those lights and signs, and with A/C set to 75 while it was in the mid 80’s in anything else and the EPA estimates are toast!

___Terry, good point about the EPA estimates and our spouses. It isn’t that Marian does not try once in a while but she just doesn’t care most of the time. If not caring yield’s poor FE when compared to the EPA estimates, then so be it. Imho, the city (FTP75) and highway (HWFET)driving cycles should not be changed because there isn’t a sole here that cannot destroy those estimates knowing what we all know today! Changing the EPA driving cycles to account for faster accel, harder decel’s, and higher overall speeds as has been posted multiple times simply encourages people to ride the pedals even harder. Using A/C in the various City/Highway cycles to account for deep summer or southern latitude driving as well as using the cold weather testing protocols for yet a third City/Highway rating to best account for winter driving would be a good thing however.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I have to say I sorta shrug my shoulders about the EPA estimates. They can fix them or leave them as is, far as I’m concerned. I’ve always read the EPA as a “theoretical” number. That’s because I understand that by putting the car on a treadmill, and setting it at a constant speed, they were just trying to establish a level playing field and unbiased environment for each car tested. It’s easier that way, and you get repeatable results. But I also understand the consumer’s desire to see numbers that they can achieve themselves in a realistic environment. The tradeoff is that simulating real world conditions while taking into account the idiosyncrasies of each car, opens up cans and cans of worms and-- simply takes more time, money and effort. I think no one will ever be satisfied with the numbers, anyway. To me, it’s just a relative guideline.

My husband worries too much about my driving. First, when I drove too fast (in my old car, a V6). Then when I got this car he was worried it wouldn’t have enough pep to merge on a freeway and he made me do a test run with him in the car right after I bought it. Now he worries I’m driving too slowly and someone’s going to take out their road rage on me.

His philosophy is a little like the "my wife" stories I hear on this board, but with a macho spin:
1) You own the car, the car shouldn’t own you. It’s just another machine at your disposal.
2) Drive to maximize your comfort, enjoy whatever savings you get but don’t do any special effort to “work” for it. The $10 or whatever you save on a tank isn’t worth it.
3) Watching the dashboard constantly is a) not safe and b) again means the car owns you

But I nearly had a heart attack today. I got in the car and noticed he got 49mpg :eek: on his last city trip (8 miles) this morning. Wondering if he was just lucky and light on the pedal or….

2) Drive to maximize your comfort, enjoy whatever savings you get but don’t do any special effort to “work” for it. The $10 or whatever you save on a tank isn’t worth it.
3) Watching the dashboard constantly is a) not safe and b) again means the car owns you



2) like moving your hands a few more times than usual is extra work... what we have here is a mentally for "not trying" because most people don't have FE gauges to see their instant results. Many don't have the patience to wait till their tank gets empty so they just empty it faster!

3) if your driving for more mpg, police officers have told me that, "at least your more cautious than someone driving like the village idiot."

I kind of agree with 1), but I also see efficient driving techniques as a way to make the machine do what I want it to do. If I just accept the 27 or 30mpg that my car wants to give me, in a way I am letting it impose its will on me ;)