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http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2012_Prius_c_Front_Passenger.jpg

MSRP

Prius c One - $18,950
Prius c Two - $19,900
Prius c Three - $21,635
Prius c Four - $23,230

Destination: $760

Options Pricing: TBA

Engineering

Engine

Engine Type: In-Line 4-Cylinder
Engine Block/Cylinder Head: Aluminum-Alloy
Displacement (cc): 1,497
Horsepower @ rpm: 73@4,800
Torque (lb.-ft. @ rpm): 82@4,000
Redline (rpm): 4,800
Bore and Stroke (in): 2.95x3.33
Compression Ratio (volumetric, not mechanical): 13.4:1
Valvetrain: 16-valve VVT-I DOHC
Multi-Point Fuel Injection
Drive-by-Wire Throttle System
Front-Wheel Drive
CARB Emissions Rating: SULEV-2
Federal Emissions: Tier II/Bin3
Direct Ignition System with Immobilizer

Motor (MG2)

Type: Permanent Magnet AC Synchronous Motor
Max Voltage: 520V
Electric Motor Power Output: 60 HP/45 kW
Torque: 125 lb.-ft.

Total system output: 99 HP/74 kW

Battery Pack

Type: NiMH
Capacity: 6.5 Ah
Battery Peak Horsepower Rating: 25.9 HP/19.3kw
System Voltage: 520 V Boosted max

Transmissions:

Electronic CVT

RPM@ 60 mph: 1,448 RPM

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2012_Prius_c_Drivers_Side.jpg

Body/Suspension/Chassis:

Unit-Body Construction
MacPherson Strut Front Suspension
Torsion Beam Rear Suspension
Stabilizer Bar (mm., front/rear): NA
Electric Power-Assisted Rack-and-Pinion Steering
Steering Wheel Turns, Lock-to-Lock (15” wheels/16” wheels): 3.02/2.28
Steering Ratio (15” wheels/16” wheels): 14.4/13/2
Turning Diameter, Curb-to-Curb (ft.) (15” wheels/16” wheels): 31.4/37.4 ft.
Power-Assisted Ventilated Front Disc/Rear Drum Brakes (in.): 10”/9”
Wheels: 5.0x15 or available 6.0x16
All-Season Tires: P175/65R15 or available P195/50R16
Compact Spare Tire

Interior Measurements:

Headroom (in., front/rear): 38.6/37.0
Legroom (in., front/rear): 41.7/35.0
Shoulder Room (in., front/rear): 52.3/51.7
Hiproom (in., front/rear): 51.0/50.8
Cargo Volume (cu. ft.): 17.1
Passenger Volume (cu. ft.): 87.4
Seating Capacity: 5

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2012_Prius_c_Interior.jpg

Exterior Measurements:

Wheelbase (in.): 100.4
Length (in.): 157.3
Height (in.): 56.9
Width (in.): 66.7
Track (in., front/rear) (15” wheels): 58.3/58.1
Track (in., front/rear) (16” wheels): 57.5/57.31
Curb Weight (lbs.): 2,500
Cd: 0.28

EPA Mileage Estimates/Capacities:

City/Highway/Combined: 53/46/50 mpgUS
Fuel (gal.): 9.5
Required Fuel: Regular Unleaded

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2012_Prius_c_Cargo_Volume.jpg

Standard Exterior Features
Projector-beam halogen headlamps
Rear combination lamps with LED stop lamps
Hybrid Synergy Drive blue accent badges
Color-keyed power outside mirrors with turn signal indicators
15-in. steel wheels with full wheel covers and P175/65R15 tires
Intermittent windshield wipers and intermittent rear wiper
Color-keyed rear spoiler with LED center high-mount stop lamp
Black roof-mounted antenna
Standard Interior Features
Automatic climate control with air filter, electric compressor, humidity sensor, and push-button controls.
3.5-in color TFT Multi-Information Display with customizable settings, outside temperature, clock, fuel economy history, cruising range, trip distance, EV miles driven, Hybrid System Indicator, ECO savings record, energy monitor, and warning messages.
Fabric-trimmed front seats with 4-way adjustable driver’s seat; 4-way adjustable front passenger seat.
Fold-down rear seat
Tilt/telescopic steering wheel with audio, climate, Multi-Information Display, and Bluetooth hands free phone controls.
Digital instrumentation with speedometer, fuel gauge, odometer, instant fuel economy, and shift position indicator.
Remote keyless entry system with lock, unlock, and panic functions, and remote illuminated entry.
Power windows with driver-side one-touch auto up/down.
Rear window defogger with timer
Passenger-side glove compartment
One front 12V auxiliary power outlet
Dual sun visors with vanity mirrors
Front seat map lamp
Front door storage pockets with sculpted bottle holders
Assist grips above driver and front passenger door
Standard Audio System
AM/FM CD player with MP3/WMA playback capability, 4 speakers in 4 locations, auxiliary audio jack, USB port with iPod® connectivity, auto sound leveling, hands-free phone capability, phone book access and music streaming via Bluetooth® wireless technology.

Safety
Star Safety System which includes Vehicle Stability Control (VSC), Traction control (TRAC), Anti-lock Brake System (ABS) with Electronic Brake-force Distribution (EBD), Brake Assist (BA), and Smart Stop Technology (Brake override), Hill Start Assist Control (HAC), Vehicle Proximity Notification System (VPNS).


9 airbags; includes Driver and front passenger Advanced Airbag System, Driver and front passenger seat mounted side airbags, driver knee airbag, driver and front passenger seat cushion airbags, and side curtain airbags.


Driver and front passenger Advanced Whiplash-Injury Lessening (WIL) seats.


Tire Pressure Monitor System (TPMS)


Three-point seatbelts for all seating positions with driver-side Emergency Locking Retractor (ELR), and Automatic/Emergency Locking Retractor (ALR/ELR) on all passenger seatbelts.


Driver and front passenger seatbelt pretensioners with force limiters.


Driver and front passenger seatbelt warning sensors.


LATCH (Lower Anchors and Tethers for CHildren) includes lower anchors on outboard rear seats and tether anchors on all rear seats.


Child-protector rear door locks.
Trims

Prius c One – Standard equipment only

Prius c Two adds:
AM/FM CD player with MP3/WMA playback capability, 6 speakers in 6 locations, auxiliary audio jack, USB port with iPod® connectivity, auto sound leveling, hands-free phone capability, phone book access and music streaming via Bluetooth® wireless technology.


Variable intermittent windshield wipers.


Fabric-trimmed two-tone front seats, 6-way adjustable driver’s seat; 4-way adjustable front passenger seat and seatback pocket.


60/40 split fold-down rear seat with adjustable headrest


Cruise Control


Center console with armrest and storage compartment


Cargo area tonneau cover


Cargo area lamp


Engine immobilizer
Prius c Three adds:
Display Audio with Navigation and Entune- includes 6.1-in. touchscreen, AM/FM CD player with MP3/WMA playback capability, 6 speakers in 6 locations, SiriusXM Satellite Radio capability (includes 3 month trial subscription to XM Select Package), HD Radio™ with iTunes® Tagging, auxiliary audio jack, USB port with iPod connectivity and control, vehicle information with customizable settings, hands-free phone capability, phone book access, advanced voice recognition, and music streaming via Bluetooth wireless technology.


Entune - includes Bing and Pandora; real-time info including traffic, weather, fuel prices, sports, and stocks. Apps available spring 2012 at no charge include iHeartRadio, MovieTickets.com and OpenTable. Access to Entune services is complimentary for three years.


Color-keyed outside door handles with touch-sensor lock/unlock feature.


Tilt/telescopic steering wheel with audio, climate, Multi-Information Display, Bluetooth hands free phone and voice command controls.


Touch Tracer Display


Smart Key System on front doors and liftgate with Push Button Start and remote illuminated entry.
Prius c Four adds
Color-keyed heated outside power mirrors with turn signal indicators.
15-inch 8-spoke alloy wheels with P175/65R15 tires.
SofTex-trimmed heated front seats; 6-way adjustable driver seat; 4-way adjustable front passenger seat with seatback pocket.
Integrated fog lamps.
Options

Prius c Three
15-inch 8-spoke alloy wheel with P175/65R15 tires
Power tilt/slide moonroof with sliding sunshade
Prius c Four
16-inch 8-spoke alloy wheels with P195/50R16 tires
Includes quicker steering ratio with 2.28 turns lock to lock-
Power tilt/slide moonroof with sliding sunshade
16-inch Alloy Wheel Package: includes 16-inch 8-spoke alloy wheels with P195/50R16 tires and power tilt/slide moonroof with sliding sunshade.
Colors
Habanero
Blue Streak Metallic
Summer Rain Metallic
Absolutely Red
Black Sand Pearl
Magnetic Gray Metallic
Classic Silver Metallic
Moonglow
Super White
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2012_Prius_c_Passenger_Rear.jpg

That center console would take some SERIOUS getting used to. At least for me.

Looks good. If/when I need to replace my '07, this would be very near the top of the list of candidates.

Honda, are you paying attention? About the only thing the Insight has over this is more cargo space.

Honda Insight 2012 15.9 cargo volume
Prius c 17.1 cargo volume

So Honda's edge in cargo space is negative 1.2 cu ft.

Oh, wow. Ouch. Now all the Insight has is a longer and lower cargo space which is a little more usable. Not good.

Big thing to me for these two nearly identical (in utility) cars is HSD vs IMA and the early raves the c is getting on all fronts, including especially mpg.

I have personal experience long term in the GenII, GenIII, Insight I and Insight II. I haven't driven a Prius c yet, but with all that I have seen and heard, the Prius c would be my pick. The Insight II is my least favorite.

The base model has no radio?

Standard Audio System
AM/FM CD player with MP3/WMA playback capability, 4 speakers in 4 locations, auxiliary audio jack, USB port with iPod® connectivity, auto sound leveling, hands-free phone capability, phone book access and music streaming via Bluetooth® wireless technology.

Standard Audio System
AM/FM CD player with MP3/WMA playback capability, 4 speakers in 4 locations, auxiliary audio jack, USB port with iPod® connectivity, auto sound leveling, hands-free phone capability, phone book access and music streaming via Bluetooth® wireless technology.


Prius c Two adds:
AM/FM CD player with MP3/WMA playback capability, 6 speakers in 6 locations, auxiliary audio jack, USB port with iPod® connectivity, auto sound leveling, hands-free phone capability, phone book access and music streaming via Bluetooth® wireless technology.


:confused:

So Prius c One - $18,950 + destination: $760 = $ 19,710 ?

So Prius c One - $18,950 + destination: $760 = $ 19,710 ?

That's right, but don't expect to find One's, just like you can't find a Liftback One. Those seem to exist in theory.

Andrew, the difference is in the number of speakers.

Ah-ha! Good catch.

:confused:

Maybe it's deliberately done to try to fool people, or maybe it's just ...

select f.description
from features f
where model = :qp_model
and :qp_trim between trim_from and trim_to;

... so they repeat the full description of each feature instead of just the changes to the feature.

There's the same thing where the Three repeats all the steering wheel details because they also have voice commands.

(I just use p as a parameter prefix, but it'd turn it into emoticons)

Few would buy higher packages if they only listed the discrete improvements...

Andrew, I'm surprised you haven't noticed this:Prius c Two adds:
60/40 split fold-down rear seat with adjustable headrest
Engine immobilizerSo now Toyota's starting to pull Honda's stupid game with non-split rear seats. The difference being that Honda's been pulling that on the Civic Sedan, which is greatly disappointing but not completely mental. To produce a hatchback with a rear seat that doesn't split-fold is monumentally stupid.

Which leads me to agree with ksstathead that as with the Prius Classic (as I've been calling it), the One level won't really exist.

Which means that the Prius c actually starts at $20,660 with destination.

Which leads me to ...
Oh, wow. Ouch. Now all the Insight has is a longer and lower cargo space which is a little more usable. Not good.The Insight has another major advantage: a starting price $2500 lower. That's nothing to sneeze at when you're talking about economy-car buyers who are stretching their budget to nab a hybrid. The actual price price spread will be much larger, since Prius c's won't see any discounts for a couple years and Insights are VERY negotiable. Personally, if not for tsunami-impacted availability I could have stretched our budget to $18k-ish to buy an Insight last year. But at nearly $21k, the Prius c would be more than I'd want to spend.

It'll prove to be a great car, especially for mpg, and is overall a WAYYY nicer car ... but I was hoping for something a bit closer to economy-car pricing. We're still not quite there.

And to the Insight's credit, its cargo area is a LOT more usable IMO. The Prius c's cargo floor is 26" long. The Insight's is 33". That allows me to stuff several more bags in the back (with or without the dog next to them). The Insight comfortably swallows a bicycle with the right 60% seatback folded. The Prius c will probably require the front passenger seat to be rammed all the way forward to make that work.

Andrew, I'm surprised you haven't noticed this:So now Toyota's starting to pull Honda's stupid game with non-split rear seats. The difference being that Honda's been pulling that on the Civic Sedan, which is greatly disappointing but not completely mental. To produce a hatchback with a rear seat that doesn't split-fold is monumentally stupid.

Which leads me to believe that as with the Prius Classic (as I've been calling it), the One level won't really exist.

Which means that the Prius c actually starts at $20,660 with destination. I'd hoped against this outcome, but there it is.

I notice the Cruise Control game more than the split-folding seats game since cruise is a "requirement" for my wife. Neither of them is expensive and both are used to upsell.

Given the supposed target market I'd agree that the split-folding is a big upseller: it's a big bonus for small families.

But, I think there could be some of the One available. City-centered, have no children: what's the big deal about the Two?

The Insight also has a starting price $2500 lower, nothing to sneeze at. The actual price price spread will be much larger, since Prius c's won't see any discounts for a couple years and Insights are VERY negotiable. Personally, if not for tsunami-impacted availability I could have stretched our budget to $18k-ish to buy an Insight last year. But at nearly $21k, the Prius c would be more than I'd want to spend.

The base Insight price also excludes the $770 destination fee so it $1540 cheaper than a Prius c Two.

I'm used to the cruise game -- and refused to play it on my Elantra Touring. Cruise is not a necessity, just a nice-to-have.

Split-folding rear seats are a necessity if you want to make full use of a hatchback. Not having them changes the kind of car that it is.

It's not just for one-child families like mine. Split-folding just adds a whole lot of cargo versatility. Around here, a lot of city-centered no-kids buyers are heavily into outdoor sports and often need to load long gear. I think I remember back in the 80s there were hatchbacks with slab-folding rear seats. It was a big stupid PITA.

I must have been blind when I posted earlier. I read the standard interior specs and saw no radio, then I skipped to the 2 and saw it added a radio.:o

Kirk

That center console would take some SERIOUS getting used to. At least for me.

The thing that has always bothered me about the Prius (all of them) from day 1 is the awful ergonomics. Interior-wise anyway, it just tries too hard to be "different" and the placement of everything is just too stupid.

Why is the 4-way flasher switch to the left of the radio/display thingy? Move the display closer to the driver and put the switch on top of it. Primary vehicle information belongs in the dash, in front of the driver, not in the center. Ever, ever, ever. Why the multifunction display anyway? All the necessary information could be easily displayed with a combination of conventional gauges, at a savings in the base price of what, $500 at least and a simplified display upgradable with GPS if the customer really wants to waste their money on that.

And Wri is completely right about the split folding seat issue.

There's just too many annoyances, but Toyota will sell a ton of them because it's a Prius, and it's supposedly cutting-edge and offbeat. I want an affordable hybrid that is a normal car, but everybody else seems to want a statement, so I'm in the minority.

Which leads me to agree with ksstathead that as with the Prius Classic (as I've been calling it), the One level won't really exist.

Which means that the Prius c actually starts at $20,660 with destination.

Which leads me to ...
The Insight has another major advantage: a starting price $2500 lower. That's nothing to sneeze at when you're talking about economy-car buyers who are stretching their budget to nab a hybrid. The actual price price spread will be much larger, since Prius c's won't see any discounts for a couple years and Insights are VERY negotiable. Personally, if not for tsunami-impacted availability I could have stretched our budget to $18k-ish to buy an Insight last year. But at nearly $21k, the Prius c would be more than I'd want to spend.

Can you actually find a base model Insight? If they're as rare as I think they are, we're comparing a $20,125 Insight to a $19,900 Prius c. (both excl TTL and delivery)

Another view of this car: it's the best successor to the Insight-1, plus plus plus.

Add a back seat.
Swap IMA for HSD.
Use steel instead of Aluminum (good for cost, bad for weight, but it's still 2500 lb WITH battery)
Lose some aerodynamics for added utility.
Sell it for the same price, 13 years later. (actually cheaper with inflation)

^----- This. If a way could be discovered to force EV mode on demand (regardless of temperature) it might even come close to my car's performance in the extreme cold.

Hi All:

Regarding the "normal" stature of the c, it is a lot closer to the Camry Hybrid than a Prius and is in fact another premise for my preview...

Here is that small tidbit although still in rough draft form.
The all new Prius c will be defined not only by its bulletproof HSD drivetrain and low total cost of ownership thanks to a reasonable low starting price, an expected sky high residual, and its “Best-in-Class” fuel economy but by something completely new to the Prius family. That being how unassumingly “normal” or familiar it is equipped.

The c when purchased as package One or Two trims allows you to insert a standard key in the same key slot most are completely familiar and comfortable with, turn said key forward and release, shift from P (Park) to R (Reverse) or D (Drive) via a very standard on-the-floor shifter, step on the accelerator and away you go. Gone is the placing your foot on the brake and pushing a button to get to “Ready”, manipulating a small shift mechanism in a manual transmission gated like manner located to the right of the dash and when you look out of the rear view mirror, a standard B-Segment hatch rear view greets you without the odd split window and low top limiting rearward visibility. Not that this is a detriment to current Prius owners as their vehicles are now “normal” to them but for the rest of us, the “c” is simple and it works. This coming from an individual that admittedly sat in a Gen I Prius for over 15-minutes trying to figure out how to make it “go” during my first time behind the wheel almost a decade ago :o
Regarding the package's, it is the Two that appears to me to be the most practical. And it still starts at < $20K. Honda's Insight-II is unfortunately toast on the day of the c's release :(

Wayne

Does it have the same parking prawl engagement on power off that the standard Prius has or can you FAS the thing?

I be shocked if it could be disengaged, but you can N-glide just like the Prius Liftbacks.

Can you actually find a base model Insight? If they're as rare as I think they are, we're comparing a $20,125 Insight to a $19,900 Prius c. (both excl TTL and delivery)Yes, unlike the "One" level Priuses, base Insights really exist. I've seen them on dealer lots, and last time I searched my local dealers' inventories online I was able to find several of them.

Hi Sean:

No FAS's just like the Prius. It is like a third gen Prius only lighter, more maneuverable and most importantly, more fuel efficient :)

There is a new mode that consumes fuel but runs about 1,050 RPM where you can drive down the highway at 112 mpg per an uncalibrated SG-II. Like SHM in the gen III with a full SoC but the RPM is lower and the FE is higher. You cannot hold it for over a minute or so at a time but at least it is not battery sapping WS. The area between 40 and 45 mph is easier to handle now too.

Wayne

That's mighty interesting info, Wayne. I'd really like to try one to see what it is worth on my turf. :D

There is a new mode that consumes fuel but runs about 1,050 RPM where you can drive down the highway at 112 mpg per an uncalibrated SG-II. Like SHM in the gen III with a full SoC but the RPM is lower and the FE is higher.

Technique, I dub thee SDHM.

(Super Duper Highway Mode :p)

I have personal experience long term in the GenII, GenIII, Insight I and Insight II. I haven't driven a Prius c yet, but with all that I have seen and heard, the Prius c would be my pick. The Insight II is my least favorite.

I agree, and I'm an I2 owner as well.

Honda just doesn't have it any more. Between bad batteries, lack of features and just uncompetitive vehicles.

Checked local inventory yesterday. Saw a model I, II and IV (if I recall correctly).

Cheers,
Bill

If not for the reliability concerns I still might consider an Insight over a Prius c:

1. The Prius c two is still $1730 more than the base Insight.
2. The Insight will be considerably more capable with most of the cargo I carry, especially my dog and longer items like bikes and skis.

That said, I still expect the c to decimate sales of the Insight.

Hi Dan:

You would be wasting your $'s as you can fit bikes and such in the c. It is larger, more fuel efficient and less expensive than the HI-II.

And of course our 60 mile 99% all-highway round trip drive in a the c last month…

2012 Toyota Prius c Preview

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/Initial_top_off_and_Results_Collage.jpg
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/0_702_gallons_and_final_fill_location.jpg
Initial top off location, aFCD display, final top off with 0.702 gallons
consumed and final fill location at the same Shell as initial top off.

100% highway Round Trip Drive Route

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/Prius_Round_Trip_Route.jpg
2012 Toyota Prius c Preview: Round trip fuel economy calibration drive route from Leucadia, CA Shell to Christianitas Rd. Exit in San Clemente and back again. 59.5 miles actual -- 59.2 miles displayed. (http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Orpheus+Ave&daddr=Exit+72+to:Orpheus+Ave&hl=en&ll=33.243282,-117.432861&spn=0.616767,1.262054&sll=33.394078,-117.59757&sspn=0.019241,0.039439&geocode=FRCG-AEdYD0C-Q%3BFZuT_QEdJK_9-A%3BFYqG-AEdbT0C-Q&mra=dme&mrsp=1&sz=15&t=m&z=10)

The second and third gen Prius’ let alone anything else out on the super slab do not stand a chance against the Prius c.

59.5 miles/.702 gallons = 84.758 mpgUS

aFCD displayed: 85.6 mpgUS or a very respectable and very small 0.9% over report.

Just wait until you get the c on your own daily grind as 100 mpg is going down hard ;)

Wayne

You would be wasting your $'s as you can fit bikes and such in the c. It is larger, more fuel efficient and less expensive than the HI-II.

And of course our 60 mile 99% all-highway round trip drive in a the c last month…

What was your average speed on that round trip drive, approximately?
Can I get a 61 cm bike, or two of them, in a C without disassembly and without crowding my passenger out? (I can in my Mazda.)

Barring a collapse in fuel prices, I'm afraid the C will be so popular that it won't be possible to buy one anywhere near list price for at least a couple of years. That might be longer than I can wait.

Hi RedylC94:

Between the PSL on California's I-5.

I can fit most of a single bedroom in the MDX without disassembly too but it is not going to allow but a third of the efficiency the c is.

The c is larger than the Mazda GLC Wagon for people (87 cu. ft vs. 80 cu. ft of passenger volume), far safer, better equipped and provides at least double the fuel economy if you are driving the stick. 60% more if you are driving the 3-speed AT. I looked up the specs for an 84 so your 81 may be different??? In terms of cargo cap, the c has just 17 cu. ft vs. 30 cu. ft of cargo volume of the GLC Wagon. If you need more room, the v at 97/32 cu.ft. of passenger and cargo volume respectively is large enough for most family’s needs while still providing double the fuel economy of an 85 GLS Wagon.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2012_Prius_c_Cargo_Volume.jpg
Prius c rear cargo cap with seats down.

If I were going to carry bikes once every few days, weeks or months, I would buy a small bike hitch for the c and use it only when I was going to need it but that is me.

I hope that helps?

Wayne

(double post)

Wayne, you're arguing with ME about MY needs ... AGAIN?! I acknowledge that in most respects that the c is the better car. Have you made up in your mind that it's so much superior (as with the expensive Leaf vs. the more affordable iMiEV) that the "lesser" is NEVER worth considering by ANYBODY with different needs and a tighter budget than yourself?
You would be wasting your $'s as you can fit bikes and such in the c. It is largerEPA volume measurements aside, the Insight's cargo area is more than half a foot longer than that of the c. To you our cargo requirements might seem some vague "bikes and such," but the devil is in the details. We're talking about the difference between my wife sitting comfortably with a bike behind her and being smashed up against the dashboard. The longer Insight can carry several more bags than the c, and I'm sure our 190cm skis would be a tricky fit.

We could just barely (and I do mean barely) make the Insight work for us on a family roadtrip, with all 4 of us and enough camping gear for self sufficiency in cool conditions. Even in the Insight we'd be losing all visibility out the rear window. The Prius c, on the other hand, would NOT WORK AT ALL. Four occupants plus our stuff DO NOT FIT. Period. The c for us would have to justify its position in our "commuter car" slot, whereas the Insight can satisfy either the "commuter car" or "roadtrip car" requirement.

, more fuel efficient and less expensive than the HI-II.Yes, it's wonderful that the c would get better mileage, especially in local driving. But the Insight (at available discounts) is just at the very, VERY high end of our price range. Its fuel savings vs. other cars would have justified the difference for us vs. a non-hybrid last year (if not for the tsunami), but the c's additional $1730 (per MSRP -- actual difference likely greater) shatters our $18k ceiling and does not justify itself.

Maybe you find the Prius c to be "cheaper" then the Insight when loaded up with the options you consider essential, but please remember that your needs are not the same as everyone else's. I can live with the equipment level of the base Insight. Even if you can't.

Hi Dan:

The c's cargo room is much "taller" and far more “useable” than that of the HI-II.

My needs are basic and that must include Bluetooth nowadays. Without it, the car does not make the cut due to safety for the average CleanMPG'er. The HI-II lacks this very important safety feature unless you purchase the EX which of course is way out of the price range.

Most can live with an inexpensive 2 speaker radio that is standard in the HI-II base whereas Toyota believes Bluetooth and at a minimum a 4-speaker radio is the base someone would accept. I wholeheartedly agree.
Yes, Yes Yes it is...
Consider the fuel economy? We are talking about a 50 to 55 mpg HI-II vs. a 65 to 75 mpg Prius c. Split the difference and the cost after just one year and 15,000 miles at $4.00 per gives the Prius c owner a spare $300/year in his or her pocket at the pump all by its lonesome. 4 + years of that kind of savings and the rest of its competitors have to either win on big price discounts, design or features (2012 Kia Rio/2012 Hyundai Accent maybe) or they should not be considered.

Even a 2012 Kia Rio at 34 combined or 50 mpgUS for us would cost almost $350 more per year at the pump with $4.00 fuel.

Add in expected resale and reliability of the c and the rest including the HI-II are not going to be able to compete in terms of TCO.

Wayne

Wayne, why does a great car have to be so UNIVERSALLY great that its worthy competition becomes a Yugo in your estimation? Why do you make the perfect the enemy of the good?The c's cargo room is much "taller" and far more “useable” than that of the HI-II.Usability depends on what you're loading. As has happened on several past occasions you're arguing with ME about what MY needs are. LENGTH, for my family, is what determines usability. I can't bend my bikes or skis so they fit into the space above. Height is wasted space, and the Insight's cargo floor is 25-30% larger on the measurement that matters. A 26" long cargo area with bags inaccessibly stacked 3 high is a lot less usable than a 33" long cargo area with them stacked 2 high.

My needs are basic and that must include Bluetooth nowadays.You consider that basic, but not everyone does. I've noticed plenty of other cleanmpgers saying they could do with out Bluetooth, Nav and all the other telematics/(ugh) "infotainment") options dangled in front of us by automakers. Why not accept that your needs are perhaps not "basic"?

Without it, the car does not make the cut due to safety for the average CleanMPG'er.I do not agree that Bluetooth is a "needed" safety feature. In fact I do not consider it to be a safety feature at all. IMO the idea that handsfree telephoning and driving is safe is a mass delusion perpetuated by automakers and electronics companies, and enabled by lawmakers in many states, to increase sales.

Most can live with an inexpensive 2 speaker radio that is standard in the HI-II base whereas Toyota believes Bluetooth and at a minimum a 4-speaker radio is the base someone would accept. I wholeheartedly agree.Actually, the 2-speaker stereo is the one aspect of the base Insight that is so chintzy I wouldn't accept it. But the aftermarket can get the upgrade done for a couple hundred bucks. No need to spend thousands on a higher trim level.

Consider the fuel economy? We are talking about a 50 to 55 mpg HI-II vs. a 65 to 75 mpg Prius c. Split the difference and the cost after just one year and 15,000 miles at $4.00 per gives the Prius c owner a spare $300/year in his or her pocket at the pump all by its lonesome.We're talking about a half gallon per 100 mile savings. Not insignificant, but compared with all the other guzzlers on the road, the Insight's already in the stratosphere for fuel economy.

And while $300/year in fuel savings (actually, my calculations are closer to $200/year) would be nice, that could only just offset the Prius c's higher payments, if you went with the maximum 84mo loan which would limit the damage to $300/year.
Even a 2012 Kia Rio at 34 combined or 50 mpgUS for us would cost almost $350 more per year at the pump with $4.00 fuel.Compared with $15k good economy car, the Prius c would cost an absolute minimum of $700 per year in payments. The fuel savings don't even come close to justifying it for those who have to count every dollar.
Add in expected resale and reliability of the cI'll grant you that one. The c is likely to have better resale and certainly better reliability than the Insight. The latter is the big strike against it, and the one major reason I might still not have chosen it if it had been on dealer lots.

Hi Dan:

I am not arguing your needs; I am laying out the facts for everyone else. The HI-II today became an also ran. Progress does that.

Packaging is a decision we all have to make. If you need a split folding seatbacks vs. folding seatbacks in a c, you either buy package 2, 3 or 4 or you do not buy. The Price differential from MSRP is $18,950 to start vs. $18,350 to start. c vs. HI-II. Neither the HI-II or Prius c as base have center arm rests. I will not purchase or own a car without one so both the base trims are out.

What you can pick up under discount or what trims and such is still up in the air since the c just went on sale today. Given how well equipped the base is, you can bet there will be those on the lots. This is not going to be Prius unobtanium package I here which few would purchase anyway.

Bluetooth is not a delusion. It works and I use it every single time I have a press car with it included.

Going with a somewhat stripped < $15K non-hybrid 2012 Hyundai Accent/Kia Rio vs. Prius c brings up the resale TCO. The Rio and the Accent are my two favorite B-Segment cars right now given the content, design and upfront price. However, Prius’ hold their value like no other car. At trade in time 3 to 5 years down the road, a $5K differential goes right back into your pocket if you own the Prius c let alone the $350 + a year in fuel savings at $4.00 + in our world (50 mpg vs. 70 mpg). It is larger than that at the EPA for everyone else and especially the non-hybrids with a > $550 per year more payments to the pump at their respective EPA combined ratings (34 mpg vs. 50 mpg).

Wayne

How does the hiproom compare to the Gen II Prius? Or did I maybe glance over that?

Hi Dan: I am not arguing your needs;Thanks for saying that. It felt like you were.

I am laying out the facts for everyone else. The HI-II today became an also ran. Progress does that.Yes, on balance the Prius c is a far superior car, as I have conceded almost TOO many times in this thread. BUT:

Packaging is a decision we all have to make. If you need a split folding seatbacks vs. folding seatbacks in a c, you either buy package 2, 3 or 4 or you do not buy ... I will not purchase or own a car without [center arm rests] so both the base trims are out.Exactly! Finally, we agree ... that's why ONE car isn't the UNIVERSALLY better choice for all buyers. One person's needs/wants for particular equipment combinations could cause one car to suddenly be more attractive than the other. If the Insight base happened to include center armrests (or they were a $200 dealer install), thus costing thousands less than an armrest-equipped Prius c, would you still be bashing on it?

Bluetooth is not a delusion. It works and I use it every single time I have a press car with it included.I'm not arguing whether Bluetooth works. Wait ... are you seriously arguing that handsfree phoning and driving is safe?

Hi Matthew:

Look up the Prius specs in this forum and compare them with the Prius c specs on page one of this thread.

Dan, a Bluetooth Handsfree phone is always safer than a cell phone up to ones ear. I see it all the time on the interstate here with drivers and their phones stuck to their face as they come up from behind. They cannot concentrate enough to pass so they sit behind at 3 under the PSL and after they hang up, they pass. I have never seen someone speaking into a BT system do that but it is a lot harder to tell if they have a BT call in progress.

I see this five to ten times during each of my calibration drives and it is so noticeable to be a foregone conclusion. BT hands free keeps people better engaged with the traffic and road ahead then a cell phone stuck to a drivers face.

Wayne

I do not agree that Bluetooth is a "needed" safety feature. In fact I do not consider it to be a safety feature at all. IMO the idea that handsfree telephoning and driving is safe is a mass delusion perpetuated by automakers and electronics companies, and enabled by lawmakers in many states, to increase sales.
+1

The reports I saw quoted scientific studies that found that handsfree cell use was just as distracting as handheld. Though I'd agree that driving with one hand or cradling the phone in your shoulder add to the risk by reducing one's control and one's ability to turn one's head.

I have a Bluetooth earpiece and find that my driving focus is greatly reduced when I'm using it. So I generally shut off the cell when I'm driving. If I'm expecting a call, I try to answer it and ask the other party to stay on the line while I find a safe spot and pull off. When I see others pulled off to make cell calls, I silently applaud them.

When I'm in the car, I'm perfectly happy to just drive. I don't need or want to pay for Bluetooth, Nav (I figure out where I'm going beforehand rather than peer at a screen while I'm driving), Touchscreens, Internet, etc, etc. Frankly, the steering wheel controls on my Prius are Too Much Technology given that the controls for the radio, for example, are close at hand.

Bluetooth or not , talking does not help safe and efficient driving. It IS a distraction. I don't need to talk on my cell phone for business (as I am sure some of you do) , and my family knows it is best not to call my cell except in an emergency. They DO text me , and I look at the texts when/if I stop at a traffic signal. Bluetooth may be great for the person who NEEDS to talk while driving. Thankfully , I don't have that need.
Center console ? I've had cars without it(shrugs). Cheap-ass stereo ? Like Dan said , a good fix is available in the aftermarket. Safety ? I had a 1981 Mazda GLC for eight years and I didn't die.
The c is an awesome car. The market is full of good-to-great cars. This is the Golden Age of Automobiles (caps all mine).

Dan, a Bluetooth Handsfree phone is always saferSafer does not mean safe. And I would argue the difference is marginal. You really think the act of holding something in your hand is what makes yakking and driving unsafe? It's the mental distraction that is the problem.

I see it all the time on the interstate here with drivers and their phones stuck to their face as they come up from behind. ... I have never seen someone speaking into a BT system do that but it is a lot harder to tell if they have a BT call in progress. Exactly! Except that it's not a forgone conclusion, it's availability bias.

When you see someone driving like a tuned-out idiot, and they are talking on a handheld, you can immediately chalk that up as the phone causing a distraction. Like you, I see this sometimes numerous times per day (even though handheld use is illegal here).

When you see someone driving like a tuned-out idiot, and they are NOT on a handheld, you don't know whether they are on the phone and you don't file it away in your memory bank the same way.

Not only that, but you see this a lot less than the distracted-with-handheld behavior because handsfree-equipped drivers are still outnumbered by handheld-wielding drivers by a factor of MANY to one. Once the industry has made their billions equipping a large share of us with BT, this will become more obvious.

The c is an awesome car. The market is full of good-to-great cars. This is the Golden Age of Automobiles (caps all mine).I agree! With all the great new higher-FE cars coming out it does seem that way.

The entire time from about 1995 until a couple years ago I felt like we were in the automotive Dark Ages in so many ways, with the 2nd/3rd gen Prius being one of the few bright lights. There have been so many changes for the better recently.

Hi All:

A radio, cell phone or even your spouse in the next seat over is a distraction and it is not good.

However, all of those distractions are going to occur no matter what if you believe they should or not. I do not want you, your spouse, your child, your neighbor or anyone else to be talking on a cell phone without a BT hands free system or have to deal with somebody else that is not using one in a car heading towards me!

Purists or not, if you have somebody else in your car “ever”, there is distraction. If you have the radio on, there is distraction. If you have an i and aFCD showing, there is distraction. If you are on a BT call, there is a distraction. If you are holding that phone to your face while taking the call, there is the most heinous type of distraction up to and including texting.

Do you want the person heading towards you at 55 mph on a 2-lane road with a closing speed of 110 mph to have a BT equipped call in progress or with the phone up to his face? You have to make a choice because right now, it is one or the other no matter if you have removed the passenger seats in your car and the radio has not worked in decades. If your car is that old, I would be more concerned with other safety issues (front, side, side curtains, ABS, BA, EBFD, TC and VSC, HSS safety cage meeting the latest 2010 DOT requirements) to name only a few.

Dan rarely and I mean very rarely do I ever see someone just come up behind and sit with no phone showing. I see those with the phone out and up to their face come up and sit every single time I drive the Interstate. The correlation is real and it is the impetus in which the DOT and NHTSA are pursuing BT only systems and the state laws are following in lockstep. BT equipped cell users are less distracted than those without. Which in turn brings us to ever using a cell phone inside of an HI-II base or LX unless you have the portable device stuck in your ear. Prius c does not force you into that because it is included with the car as imo a safety device.

Wayne

Do you want the person heading towards you at 55 mph on a 2-lane road with a closing speed of 110 mph to have a BT equipped call in progress or with the phone up to his face?
Good point, I'm not sure which I'd prefer. The handheld guy has the slight additional distraction of holding onto the phone. But at least I can SEE he's on the phone and take evasive action sooner.

Best analogy I can think of is having someone shoot at me with a .38 I can SEE vs someone shooting at me with a .22 that's hidden. Neither option is particularly good!

I sometimes see a BT driver. It looks like they're talking to themselves. Or to God.

From my own experience I know that I am far far more distracted by a phone call than I am by a conversation with a passenger, listening to the sound system, etc. And for me the difference between handheld and hands free is minimal - both are unacceptably distracting. Others may think they handle it better, I can only speak for myself.

The fact that so many other drivers are careening around while talking on the cell just makes it more dangerous for me to talk on the cell - I can't avoid them if I am distracted too!!

I don't buy the popular all-distractions-are-equal argument, a pillar of the popular rationalization that handsfree cellphone use is OK because it is comparable to other distractions like sipping coffee, changing a radio station or talking to someone else IN the car. It is simply not. (Although it might be comparable to changing the station, arguing with your MIL in the back seat about what the announcer just said, yelling at your kid to shut up AND eating a dripping taco AT THE SAME TIME).

I don't disagree that handsfree is safER than handheld. I do believe handsfree is a bit less dangerous, but only incrementally (and possibly only marginally) so, a la lightfoot's .38 vs .22 analogy. I still contend that it is extremely dangerous to conduct a telephone conversation with someone who isn't in the car with you, in the same ballpark with DUII. In my opinion we will eventually have a mountain of evidence (dead people) to back that up.

So would BT be nice to have for those infrequent occasions when I take an incoming call or dial 911? Sure. Is it laudable for Toyota to include it? Probably. Would I spend thousands more to have this safety feature that is of marginal benefit? No.

And given that the presence of BT leads most people to indulge in more cellular use than before, I question whether on the whole there is any safety benefit whatsoever.

where is that guy in the bus with cell jammer when we need him?

Hi All:

With roadway fatality rates falling as fast as they have been the past 5-years, the argument could be made that distractions are not a problem even though we are bombarded with them at an ever increasing rate. The safety of today’s vehicles are simply so much better than previous that most can survive even a horrific and sure to be life ending crash in a 2000 vehicle yet walk away in a 2010 or newer one.

Distractions are indeed real and BT is but one way to mitigate the non BT user from picking up and dialing away.

Have any of you used a voice activated dialer by BT in a modern day automobile?

Wayne

So about an inch shorter, by the numbers, as far as hip room goes. I guess I'll have to throw some car seats into one in a few years to see if it'd make a good replacement for us around 2015 or so.

Hi RedylC94:
I can fit most of a single bedroom in the MDX without disassembly too but it is not going to allow but a third of the efficiency the c is.

The c is larger than the Mazda GLC Wagon for people (87 cu. ft vs. 80 cu. ft of passenger volume), far safer, better equipped and provides at least double the fuel economy if you are driving the stick. 60% more if you are driving the 3-speed AT. I looked up the specs for an 84 so your 81 may be different??? In terms of cargo cap, the c has just 17 cu. ft vs. 30 cu. ft of cargo volume of the GLC Wagon.
In comparing space in the old GLC hatchback to that in the new C hatchback, the old GLC wagon (an even older, rwd design) is almost as irrelevant as the MDX. According to EPA, the '84 hatchback (same body as my '81) had 86 ft³ passsenger space and 15 ft³ cargo volume. As WriConsult has corrrectly pointed out several times, advertised cargo capacities do not tell us whether there's enough length to handle bikes. I still don't know whether the C can. If not, its mpg is moot (leaving me to contemplate the Accent ...) .

The C can't provide anywhere near "double the fuel economy" I get (typically low 50s in conditions roughly comparable to your awesome highway run with the c). Clearly better, yes, but not THAT much.

Hi RedylC94:

I can see you pulling off a number of triple digit tanks in a c if you can stay off the highway ;)

Wayne

Hi RedylC94:

I can see you pulling off a number of triple digit tanks in a c if you can stay off the highway ;)

Wayne
That would be fun to try! Would 65 mpg in an Accent manual be easier to pull off?

I used to measure fuel economy of press cars on I-78 in Jersey, using methods that were becoming archaic even then.

Inconveniently, much of my travel is on Interstates, where the semis coming at me at 75 mph from behind (even in the right lane) make trying to drive efficiently a test of courage. Most of the rest is on two-lane county roads, where driving a little below the posted limit soon attracts a long parade of impatient pickups and Seriously Ugly Vehicles behind. I'm willing to slow them down a bit, but not so much they get hostile!

Hi Redylc94:

Faster but much more tedious :)

Wayne

Have any of you used a voice activated dialer by BT in a modern day automobile?

Wayne

Wayne,
I normally do on a daily basis.
I am usually calling a number in the phone's phonebook, but I have tested the Elantra's dial-by-number with 100% accuracy.
That being said, if the number isn't in my phonebook (which can be dialed-by-name), I wait until I'm parked somewhere before I place the call.