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View Full Version : Ethanol blends prove divisive.


xcel
04-07-2007, 03:39 PM
Auto and fuel industries are at odds over amount to use. (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070407/BUSINESS01/704070324/1014)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/Renewable_Fuels.jpgJustin Hyde - Detroit Free Press - April 7, 2007

WASHINGTON -- The boom in U.S. ethanol production that Detroit automakers and ethanol proponents have worked hand in hand for years to achieve could soon pit the two industries against each other over how much of the fuel in your vehicle's tank is too much.

With outlets for the alternative fuel growing slowly, the ethanol industry is considering asking federal officials to allow sales of gasoline with up to 20% ethanol, double the current limit, for use in all cars and trucks.

But U.S. automakers say outside of the 5 million vehicles they've sold that are capable of burning 85% ethanol, their cars and trucks weren't designed for such fuels.

General Motors Corp. Vice Chairman Bob Lutz, who touted ethanol's potential during this week's New York auto show, said he had asked GM's engineers last week about the effect E20 would have on its older vehicles.

"To put E20 in the fleet that's out there is going to corrode every non-ethanol fueling system," Lutz told the Free Press in an interview. "We absolutely guarantee the destruction of the engine and the fuel injection system if we go the E20 route. It will not work."

The push for E20 comes as the U.S. ethanol industry's supplies could soon outpace demand. The largest demand for ethanol comes from blending up to 10% ethanol into regular gasoline for cleaner emissions. Last year, ethanol producers sold 5.4 billion gallons, nearly all of which went into regular gasoline to replace now-banned blending chemicals.

The industry estimates its U.S. capacity soon will hit 12 billion gallons annually, thanks to ethanol plant construction and government subsidies. With Americans buying 140 billion gallons of gasoline a year, 10% ethanol blends likely will max out around 14 billion gallons.

Yet the industry and its backers in Congress are discussing far higher production targets; President George W. Bush has proposed 35 billion gallons of biofuels a year by 2017, most of which would be ethanol.

U.S. Sen. John Thune, R-South Dakota, told the Environmental Protection Agency last month that ethanol makers in his state were worried that "we will hit an E10 wall in the next two to three years if gasoline with a higher ratio of ethanol is not timely approved and made available to consumers."

"The need for fuel with a higher ratio of ethanol to gasoline is growing by the day," Thune said in his letter.

Sens. Jeff Bingaman, D-N.M., and Pete Domenici, R-N.M., the chairman and the ranking member of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee, have introduced a bill targeting the production of 36 billion gallons of biofuels by 2022 and would require the Department of Energy to study E20 and E15 fuels. They're scheduled to present their bill at a hearing Thursday.

Some ethanol production will be soaked up by increased E85 sales, but they have been a minimal part of the market so far, due to a lack of fuel pumps and problems with transporting the fuel. A recent study by Polk Co. found that of those 5 million E85-capable vehicles, 1.1 million were in California, Florida and Texas. California has one E85 filling station, Florida has fewer than five open to the public and Texas has 27, according to the National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition.

Most cars and trucks built after 1980 were designed to handle up to 10% ethanol after governments began allowing such blends following the oil crises of the 1970s. A 2002 study by the U.S. National Renewable Energy Laboratory found that vehicles made before 1995 might have trouble adapting to E20 and that E20 or similar fuels could cause emissions problems.

Cars designed to use E85 have different fuel system parts that are more corrosion resistant, as higher ethanol blends tend to carry more water.

"E20 could create problems for consumers, and the use of E20 could result in voided warranties," said Charles Territo, spokesman for the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, the industry trade group that includes Detroit's automakers, Toyota Motor Co. and others. "We're all for the use of ethanol, but we need to make sure we aren't doing things that can have an adverse impact on performance."

The leading proponent of E20 is the State of Minnesota, which passed a law in 2005 requiring E20 as its standard vehicle fuel by 2013 if certain conditions are met, including EPA approvals. The Renewable Fuels Association, the ethanol industry's trade group, has been working with Minnesota officials testing E20 in 80 vehicles.

Ralph Groschen, a senior marketing specialist with the Minnesota Department of Agriculture, said the tests should be complete by August or September. So far, "there were no showstoppers that jumped out at us," he said.

The state law won't kick in if E85 replaces 10% of gasoline demand by 2010, but that would require Minnesota's E85 consumption to more than double every year until then. Groschen said automakers and others had predicted trouble when Minnesota required 10% ethanol in gasoline in 1991, and those warnings had not come to pass.

The RFA said it would not apply for EPA approval for E20 until the results of the Minnesota tests are complete.

"We don't know what the results will be, and nobody really knows, but we'll know more ... after those tests have come out," said RFA spokesman Matt Hartwig. "We think there may be an opportunity to increase the blends beyond 10%, but we need to know the data."

AshenGrey
04-07-2007, 08:48 PM
So... Lemme get this straight: If GM doesn't sell enough E85 vehicles, then the Feds will force us to pump E20 into our E10 engines and thus destroy tens of millions of vehicles. Yeah, what a plan. Thanks, Bush!

BailOut
04-07-2007, 09:01 PM
Many of us already live with the permanent mileage hit of year-round E10.

The las thing I want is E20.

Pravus Prime
04-07-2007, 09:57 PM
E20 and the FEH is not a good mix. In fact, it's a very, very bad mix.

A whole suitcase of bad.

donee
04-08-2007, 08:52 AM
Hi All,

Possibly a little correction in the Ethanol production is needed. Right now its said that corn prices are so high that farmers are being lured into planting corn on corn. This could be a dust-bowl disaster in the making. Beside soil fertility reduction, there is excess water resource usage and insect control issues. A little water stress, and allowing the corn insects two consecutive seasons of the same field, and there could be big problems.

Minnesota is not doing itself any good by pushing ethanol as the primary bio-fuel. Farmers need to diversify, and excess corn above E10, should be turned into butanol. Butanol has a technical, although not a economic (as of yet) market of all cars on the road. Technical standards for butanol, that the car companies sign off on, need to be implemented to make butanol economic.

E10 is needed for polution control, and the inefficiency of making the ethanol pays for itself in that respect. Ethanol is not appropriate as a primary fuel.

Chuck
04-08-2007, 09:51 AM
I'm not going to be happy having to spend a lot of money allowing my Insight to burn E20 if it's really that corrosive. On the other hand, Bob Lutz just made a remark we should all breath slower so humans will pollute less with CO2 :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

xcel
04-08-2007, 09:58 AM
Hi Donee:


___Great reply. I had no idea there was a pest issue with running multiple years of Corn vs. a Corn-Soybean rotation.

___The extra refining steps for Butanol is an economic problem larger then its ability to pump through today’s pipeline. With its increased BTU content, you have a rather large loss in total gallons as well. Ethanol across the country and in the volumes we are heading for simply does not make sense either but as a fuel extender, it does reduce our CO2 output well to wheel and field to tank.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Skwyre7
04-09-2007, 08:38 AM
The Prius has a bladder in the gas tank. We all know that when we drink ethanol, we must empty our bladders more frequently. That would not be good in the Prius. :rolleyes: ;)

AustinYaris
04-13-2007, 11:50 PM
couple of newbie questions here:

I take it that any kind of ethanol added to gasoline is not good for our cars

not all gasolines have ethanol added, right? how do you tell which ones do so you can avoid it?

xcel
04-14-2007, 06:21 AM
Hi AustinYaris:

___As a gasoline extender, Ethanol-10 or E10 is OK for your car but ethanol’s BTU/gallon content is so much lower then straight gasoline that there is a fuel economy hit no matter the concentration added. Those of us that are forced to use E10 year round are handcuffed with a 2 - 3% FE hit vs. straight gasoline as mandated through most areas of the Midwestern states and some in the EPA non-attainments areas where an additional oxygenate is needed.

___I do not know if Austin does or not but your stations pump will have a small sticker attached saying “This gasoline may contain upwards of 10% Ethanol” if it does.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Chuck
04-14-2007, 07:57 AM
The Shell Statin in Lewisville (D/FW area) has the “This gasoline may contain upwards of 10% Ethanol” warning.

AustinYaris
04-14-2007, 12:07 PM
Thanks guys. I'll just have to avoid gas stations with those warnings then.



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