Archives

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/2/AmericanFlag.jpg "We warranty the batteries for 150,000 miles and here you have cabs going out of service at 300,000 -- because that's the law, not because the cab's used up." (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-green-cabs30-2009mar30,0,3523990.story)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/FEH_TAXI_Chicago.jpgMaria L. La Ganga - The Los Angeles Times (http://www.latimes.com) - Mar. 30, 2009

What better endorsement for this technology could you possibly find? --Ed.

Even here, in the capital of true believers in one thing or another, Paul Gillespie stands out.

The veteran cabby and former president of the San Francisco Taxicab Commission is one of the reasons this city's taxi fleet is vying to be the most environmentally correct in the country.

After years of advocating for hybrid taxis, Gillespie, who says he has "the carbon footprint of an Ethiopian child," now has proof that they are green in more ways than one.

San Francisco's first 15 hybrid taxis, all Ford Escapes, have made it to about the 300,000-mile mark -- nearing the city's official taxi retirement age -- and are being taken off the road. Their longevity shows that hybrid technology is more durable than previously imagined; they also have saved drivers about $9,000 a year, depending on gas prices and number of shifts driven.

"Ford never really intended this vehicle to be used as a taxi," Gillespie said as he tooled around the city's hilly Pacific Heights neighborhood in the silent hybrid. "We adopted it because I was desperate to find a... http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-green-cabs30-2009mar30,0,3523990.story

That's a serious endorsement! Good for Gillespie for pushing this forward. Now others can / should follow the leader.

Maybe Fords really are being built better these days.

Harry

Am I reading that right? They batteries in all 15 of these went to 300k miles and STILL weren't dead?! Awesome!

More impressive coming from a Ford but considering that Ford has investments in Mazda, I think some Japanese engineering is taken into account. Ford is also the only US automaker with decent hybrids. I think we should sticky this article around somewhere along with other ones that we have as an archive as proof that hybrid batteries last longer than one could imagine. I've seen a used hybrid with 200k miles selling for 10k still but can easily find others under 100k for slightly more at 10-15k excluding salvaged ones.

To the best of my knowledge, Mazda had no input in the development of Ford's hybrids.

More impressive coming from a Ford but considering that Ford has investments in Mazda, I think some Japanese engineering is taken into account. Ford is also the only US automaker with decent hybrids.

If we're showing the importance of outside influences, I'd say Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive which Ford licensed should really be the standout here. I compliment Ford for not screwing up a good thing. :)

Please search the forums. Ford didn't license Toyota's Synergy Drive. There are some licensing agreements forged to avoid patent infringements, but both based their work on what was developed by the PNGV back in the 90's -- that's why they are so similar.

Whoa! I want a Hybrid. My wife wants me to want and therefore get another SUV. This article has given me serious pause. I would like to know what their maintenance costs were and know what problems they encountered. Still, it's hard to sneer at 300 000 cabby-driven urban miles.

I was looking at one to replace my CRV, but they are too pricey.

http://www.watertownford.com/detail-2008-ford-escape-hybrid-3488995.html
This 08 has been on the lot about 3 months..
(But was a rental & has been in a crash, I think).


We have one at work and I gave it a test ride. Not too impressed.
I plan to take it out again soon and update my review..

I saw a ton of Prius and FEH cabs when I was in California last month. They're all going strong, and I like it.

Hello Everyone;
I am the driver/commissioner featured in this story. This whole project has consumed a good portion of the last few years of my life, but it has been worth it. When our entire fleet is converted in a little more than two more years, GHG emissions from the SF taxi fleet will be cut from about 120,000 tons per year to about 50,000. This represents a 20% reduction from the 1990 emissions of 811 cabs, even with the 1500 cabs of today. All while putting thousands of dollars per year in the drivers pocket. It breaks my heart to see what is happening in Boston and New York, with the lawsuits and ill will that seems to permeate the discussion around hybrid taxis there. It believe that our experience in SF will be seen someday as one of the most successful and agressive attempts by any local jurisdiction to cut GHG in an innovative and effective way.
Paul Gillespie
San Francisco Taxi Commission 1999-2009

I was looking at one to replace my CRV, but they are too pricey.

http://www.watertownford.com/detail-2008-ford-escape-hybrid-3488995.html
This 08 has been on the lot about 3 months..
(But was a rental & has been in a crash, I think).


We have one at work and I gave it a test ride. Not too impressed.
I plan to take it out again soon and update my review..

Price gave me pause as well.

Hello Everyone;
I am the driver/commissioner featured in this story. This whole project has consumed a good portion of the last few years of my life, but it has been worth it. When our entire fleet is converted in a little more than two more years, GHG emissions from the SF taxi fleet will be cut from about 120,000 tons per year to about 50,000. This represents a 20% reduction from the 1990 emissions of 811 cabs, even with the 1500 cabs of today. All while putting thousands of dollars per year in the drivers pocket. It breaks my heart to see what is happening in Boston and New York, with the lawsuits and ill will that seems to permeate the discussion around hybrid taxis there. It believe that our experience in SF will be seen someday as one of the most successful and agressive attempts by any local jurisdiction to cut GHG in an innovative and effective way.
Paul Gillespie
San Francisco Taxi Commission 1999-2009

Wow! Glad to have you here. Your leadership on this issue is impressive.

Was the maintenance on the Ford Escape Hybrids better, worse, or the same as the big ol' V-8's?

Price gave me pause as well.


Yeah, I know what you mean. At that price, you might be able to get a nice 2010 Prius III.
Since I'm not driving my old CRV much these days, maybe I'll hang on to it a while longer
and pester my wife to trade in her Corolla on a new Prius III.. I think she would really like it.


I've seen a few Ebay FEHs that were salvage cars. From the looks of them, they
had minor damage but were totaled anyways. Repaired like new (in the pictures anyways),
they were going for around 18k USDs. I assume the warranty is void, so 18k might
not be any kind of a deal..

However, if FEHs are able to go 300,000 miles on one pack, without any other major parts
failing (motors, controller etc), during the 1st 100,000, then a salvage FEH might be a good deal for the DIYers.

Hello Everyone;
I am the driver/commissioner featured in this story. This whole project has consumed a good portion of the last few years of my life, but it has been worth it. When our entire fleet is converted in a little more than two more years, GHG emissions from the SF taxi fleet will be cut from about 120,000 tons per year to about 50,000. This represents a 20% reduction from the 1990 emissions of 811 cabs, even with the 1500 cabs of today. All while putting thousands of dollars per year in the drivers pocket. It breaks my heart to see what is happening in Boston and New York, with the lawsuits and ill will that seems to permeate the discussion around hybrid taxis there. It believe that our experience in SF will be seen someday as one of the most successful and agressive attempts by any local jurisdiction to cut GHG in an innovative and effective way.
Paul Gillespie
San Francisco Taxi Commission 1999-2009
Thanks for coming by and sharing your experience first hand Paul. I think it's a huge endorsement when hybrids can be shown to stand up to the rigors of being a taxi. We now have your experience as well as the Vancouver experience that shows that these guys save money, are durable, and reliable.

I'm curious if you have any MPG numbers, particularly compared to a conventional Escape, but compared to the rest of the fleet would be nice too. Further, do you have any numbers for maintenance costs of hybrids vs conventional vehicles?

Geez, it's concerning, to say the least, that some posters feel that the Japanese somehow had to have some sort of input into Ford's hybrids as to why they are successful. :rolleyes: How about just giving props to Ford for proving that their quality is at least on par with Honda and Toyota? By the way, that last line came from Consumer Reports.

Kudos to the SF taxi fleet, one and all!

Jenriquez, I am one of those nasty people who think that the guts of the FEH is a Prius, but not for the reason you imagine. Open up the hood of an FEH and Prius: the components and their layout are identical. Moreover, the transaxle and traction battery are built by Toyota subsidiaries. And if you still have any doubt, the ECU programming should convince you. Finding homebrewed Toyota circuit boards and cpu's is expected, but I do not know that for a fact.

Trivia fact: the very nice fuel economy of the Fusion hybrid, an improvement over the FEH, is in-line with the Prius 2G to 3G jump after you correct for vehicle size and weight differences. Not terribly surprising, since the new Ford uses the new transaxle Toyota is putting into hte G3 Prius (which incidentally, first appeared in a Toyota Lexus hybrid.)

I hope and expect taht Ford will eventually differentiate their hybrid line successfully (beyond mating the hybrid powertrain with a Ford ICE), but it has not happened yet.

Please go study the patents and you'll discover that Ford does not use Toyota technology.

Please go study the patents and you'll discover that Ford does not use Toyota technology.

You're a trusted and honest poster with a great reputation, so I'll take your word for it.

It's hardly surprising this is a common misunderstanding. Toyota has ~144 patents on hybrid technology while Ford has ~19 in that agreement you mentioned. The "Hybrid Synergy Drive" moniker and web sites all link back to Toyota.

Perhaps this is Fords real failure in not communicating well enough with the car buying public. Couple that with the stigma that Ford picks up for being an American car company and only within the past 10 years have they produced cars of similar caliber to "foreign" competitors.

Perhaps this is Fords real failure in not communicating well enough with the car buying public. Couple that with the stigma that Ford picks up for being an American car company and only within the past 10 years have they produced cars of similar caliber to "foreign" competitors.

Yes, on all three counts -- Ford has had the wonderful FEH available for years but has failed to market or supply it properly. They are also late to the game with a sedan offering (though it is extremely well executed now that it is here!). The kicker is that Ford (like GM) has been involved in electric car, diesel, and hybrid technology research for a very long time but hasn't made real use of it until just recently (excepting their excellent diesel offerings overseas). That experience is evident when comparing the behavior and driving characteristics of their hybrids to Toyota's offerings -- they feel quite different and have different strengths because of design/implementation decisions.

Couple the above with a poor quality reputation and Ford has quite a hole to climb out of when it comes to consumer acceptance/desire. I'm sad they waited this long but I certainly hope they succeed!

My personal grief I had with Ford for years was the stupid flex fuel green leaf on a number of their vehicles. I'm sure they were smart enough to know 99% of these cars and engines would never ingest one drop of E85; nevertheless it allowed them to skirt or cheat CAFE standards by doing so. Is was a rediculous shell game. They and GM played charades while the "imports" actually improved fuel economy. Here though is a portion of why Ford will survive when GM and Chrysler will likely not - they finally got their heads on straight in time (i.e. before gas hit $4/gallon)and started producing genuine quality hybrid vehicles that people want to buy and given the right economic conditions will pay a premium for.

Ford's quickest solution would be to import some of their foreign work here.

The Fiesta ECOnic (?) is one such offering.

Ford has had the wonderful FEH available for years but has failed to market or supply it properly.

I complely agree. After I bought my HCHI last year my friend's wife test drove it. 4 months later she sold her Hyundai Sante Fe and bought a used FEH. They've loved using it and are gettin 35MPG per tank consistently. :)

Thanks to everyone for the kind words and questions.
As for mileage I would say the first generation (2005) Escapes got from 25-30 mpg when used as a taxi here and the 2009 model I've been driving gets probably 28-32 on average. A typical Crown Vic taxi in SF will get anywhere from 8-14 mpg. In our law requiring GHG reduction, we use the standard ratings of EPA/DOE found on fueleconomy.gov, plugging in the assumptions of 90,000 miles per year, 70% city, 30% highway.
As for maintainence, this is more difficult to say. There is a reason that the American taxi industry has pretty much used two vehicles since WWII (Checker and Crown Vic). The CV is solid and the mechanics can fix it in the dark.
Having said that, I continue to believe the hybrids a success.
The batteries have not failed, and brake replacement I have heard anecdotally is half to a third as often. Water pumps failing at 50K was a problem early, but seems to have been fixed.
For me, the bottom line on this question is the fact that the cab companies have for the most part supported this effort and our clean taxi mandate that went into affect last July.
If our three year test from Nov 2004-2007 was not successful, I would not have written the legislation and the industry wouldn't have gone along.
Finally, I have to say, this article has made me aware of how many clean car blogs and advocates are out there. That is so great! I can't begin to tell you alone I felt at times these past few years.
If any of you are interested, the Auto Channel program Road Trip did a long piece on SF's hybrid taxis and you can find it on their website.
Paul Gillespie

Paul, I'd like to thank you. San Francisco is a beautiful city and a leader in innovative policies. I just hope your contribution is recognized for the forward leap it is, not only in SF, but around the globe.

You do good work in this and elsewhere. Thank you.

For others reading the thread I found a short bio of Paul here (http://www.sfgov.org/site/taxicommission_page.asp?id=8129).

Thanks to everyone for the kind words and questions.
As for mileage I would say the first generation (2005) Escapes got from 25-30 mpg when used as a taxi here and the 2009 model I've been driving gets probably 28-32 on average. A typical Crown Vic taxi in SF will get anywhere from 8-14 mpg. In our law requiring GHG reduction, we use the standard ratings of EPA/DOE found on fueleconomy.gov, plugging in the assumptions of 90,000 miles per year, 70% city, 30% highway.
As for maintainence, this is more difficult to say. There is a reason that the American taxi industry has pretty much used two vehicles since WWII (Checker and Crown Vic). The CV is solid and the mechanics can fix it in the dark.
Having said that, I continue to believe the hybrids a success.
The batteries have not failed, and brake replacement I have heard anecdotally is half to a third as often. Water pumps failing at 50K was a problem early, but seems to have been fixed.
For me, the bottom line on this question is the fact that the cab companies have for the most part supported this effort and our clean taxi mandate that went into affect last July.
If our three year test from Nov 2004-2007 was not successful, I would not have written the legislation and the industry wouldn't have gone along.
Finally, I have to say, this article has made me aware of how many clean car blogs and advocates are out there. That is so great! I can't begin to tell you alone I felt at times these past few years.
If any of you are interested, the Auto Channel program Road Trip did a long piece on SF's hybrid taxis and you can find it on their website.
Paul Gillespie

Using the combined mpg as a comparator and $2/gallon, in one year, the FEH saved nearly $10 000 on fuel alone. I guess it's possible that the FEH had maintenance costs that equaled the $10 000 savings, but I rather doubt it. That is a huge diffence IMO.

Somebody should check my math....