Archives

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/2/AmericanFlag.jpg A sharp looking compact that just so happens to achieve great Fuel Economy thanks to its hybrid drive-train. (cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18649)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/615/2010_Honda_Insight_Headline_pic.jpgWayne Gerdes and Sean Welch - CleanMPG (http://www.CleanMPG.com) - Jan. 11, 2009

2010 Honda Insight-II – 40/43/41 mpgUS city/highway/combined on the 08 EPA.

In late 1999, the first generation, 2-seat Honda Insight was launched as the first hybrid electric vehicle available to US consumers. It was an all out technological tour de force designed specifically to be the worlds highest fuel economy mass production automobile. To achieve its 49/61 mpgUS city/highway rating (per the 08 EPA) however, occupant comfort and utility had to take a (figurative) back seat. As a technology demonstrator for hybrid automobile early adopters, it served its purpose but with its limitations, only 13,889 vehicles were sold over the entire 6-year production run.

2010 Honda Insight-II Buyer

Although the Insight-II will not be capable of the fuel economy of its namesake, it is designed with a specific purpose in mind: to be a stylish yet fully equipped 5-door hybrid vehicle at an entry level price most any consumer can afford.

Just who are the target consumers for the Insight-II? Gen-Y includes students to working professionals from 20 to 29 years old looking for stylish yet responsible modes of transportation. Honda is also targeting higher income “Empty Nesters” -- 55 years of age and older -- who could afford more but are looking for an technologically advanced, yet environmentally friendly automobile.

Fuel Economy and Environmental importance are highest amongst those with incomes below $75,000 per year -- this is the Insight-II’s target audience.

2010 Honda Insight-II Trim Levels

The Insight-II will be available with two trim levels, an LX and EX. The EX can also be equipped with Navigation.

Major standard equipment under the LX trim includes the following:
CVT – Automatic Transmission
Power Windows w/ auto up and down for the driver, Power Locks and Power Mirrors.
Tile and Telescopic Wheel
Remote Keyless Entry
Auto climate control
160W AM/FM/CD w/ 4-speakers, Speed -Sensitive Volume Control and MP3 Aux input Jack
Rear Windshield Wiper
60/40 Split fold-down and reclining seat
Auto/Stop and Charge/Assist Indicators
Tachometer
Two a and an i FCD
Outside Temperature indicator
LED Rear lightingThe EX adds the following to the equipment included in the LX model:
15” Alloy Wheels
Center console with USB Audio port
Cruise Control steering wheel control
Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA)
Heated outside mirrors w/ external turn indicators
All driver/passenger window switches lit
Driver passenger Vanity mirrors and Map Lights
Variable Int. wipers
Seat PocketsThe EX w/ Navigation adds the following to the equipment included in the EX model:
Satellite Linked-Navigation System w/ Voice Recognition
Bluetooth hands free link
Navigation, Bluetooth, Audio, and Cruise Control steering wheel controlsHonda expects consumers will purchase the Insight-II’s various trim levels in the following ratios: 25% LX, 65% EX, and the remaining 10% EX w/ Navigation.

2010 Honda Insight-II specifications

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/615/2009_Insight_EX_058.jpghttp://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/615/2009_Insight_EX_092.jpg

The Insight-II’s specifications can be viewed in the following: Honda Insight-II specifications (http://cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=179407) page.

Familiar Engine and new IMA

The Insight-II’s 1.3L engine uses a 2-Stage i-VTEC system. The high output valve timing mode that allowed the HCH-II an additional 10 HP from the engine is missing in this iteration. The engine still features 4-cylinder deactivation but adds a late closing intake valve design (Atkinsonization) for improved fuel economy at the expense of torque.

Honda’s fifth generation Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) Hybrid drive-train (just like all those before it) allows the smallish 1.3L engine to perform as if had more HP and torque yet retain the fuel saving attributes that the powerplant is known for. The system still includes Auto-Stop capability, regenerative braking and just like Generation IV IMA in the HCH-II, an EV mode under low load and above a minimum of 11mph. Compared to the IMA system in the HCH-II however, power output per battery module (a module consists of 8-1.2V D-sized NiMH cells) is 30% higher. This allows a decrease from 11 to just 7 modules -- a 19% reduction in size and a 28% reduction in weight. The total battery system output comes to 100.8 Volts with a capacity of 5.75 Ah’s vs. the HCH-II’s 158V and 5.5 Ah’s.

ECON Mode

The ECON button allows the driver chooses to mildly reduce performance for a small increase in fuel Economy. Overrides were built in; if the driver pushes the accelerator to the floor, the ECON Mode is immediately canceled without any other driver interaction.

Ancillary accessory functions have been changed as well.
Throttle position to power output is smoothed.
The Engine and CVT power output is reduced by up to 4% when ECON mode is engaged.
Regen affinity increases slightly while ECON mode is engaged.
Auto-Stop occurs at both lower intake and coolant temps.
A/C unit cycle “On” time is reduced by upwards of one-half.
A/C “On” time during Auto-Stop is reduced by allowing temperature band to increase further before reengaging.http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/615/Engine_CVT_Control_ECON_Mode.jpghttp://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/615/IMA_Assist_and_Regenerative_Braking_control_ECON_Mode.jpg
Engine and CVT, Assist, Regen and AS plus A/C control all under ECON

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/615/Cruise_Control_ECON_Mode.jpg
Cruise Control action under ECON

ECO-Assist

The 2010 Honda Insight-II includes an all new Ecological Drive Assist System (ECO Assist™) that helps drivers achieve even higher fuel economy with more feedback than the standard “i” (instantaneous) and “a” (average) Fuel Consumption Displays. The simple yet extraordinarily effective ECO Assist “Guidance Function” shows a green background behind the speedometer to indicate the use of fuel efficient accelerations, decelerations and steady state cruise.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/615/ECO_Assist.jpg
Guidance Function – Green is Good :)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/615/2009_Insight_EX_Int028.jpg
Scoring Function – Only ½ a leaf showing.

Safety

Among the wide array of standard safety technologies, Honda’s latest safety advance -- the ACE Body Structure -- is a stand out feature. It contributes enhanced protection and structural integrity in frontal collisions between vehicles of different sizes.

Along with the latest in structural safety, the Insight-II is equipped with dual-threshold driver/front passenger airbags (SRS), side curtain airbags, and driver/front passenger side airbags with a passenger-side Occupant Position Detection System (OPDS) -- all standard.

Active safety features include active front seat head restraints designed to reduce the likelihood of neck injury in rear collisions, anti-lock braking system (ABS), Electronic Brake Force Distribution (EBD), and front seatbelts with automatic-tensioners and load limiters. Again, all of this is standard equipment.

The Insight-II in EX trim also includes Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA).

Comparisons

The Insight-II was designed from the Fit platform while using a drive-train similar to the one found in the HCH-II -- it makes perfect sense to compare some of the basic attributes of these three side by side.

Honda Fit vs. Insight-II vs. HCH-II

Vehicle|2009 Honda Fit w/ CVT|2010 Honda Insight-II LX|2009 Honda Civic Hybrid-II
|||
Performance|||
0 to 60 mph (sec.)|~ 11|12.3|11.9
FE (08 EPA - mpgUS combined)|31|41|42
|||
Exterior|||
Wheelbase (in.)|98.4|100.4|106.3
Length (in.)|161.6|172.3|176.7
Height (in.)|60.0|56.2|56.3
Width (in.)|66.7|66.7|69.0
Weight (lbs.)|2,575|2,723|2,875
|||
Interior|||
Headroom (in., front/rear)|40.4 / 39.0|38.4/35.9|39.4/37.4
Legroom (in., front/rear)| 41.3 / 34.5|42.3/33.5|42.2/34.6
Shoulder Room (in., front/rear)|52.7 / 51.3|52.7/50.4|53.6/52.3
Hiproom (in., front/rear)|51.5 / 51.3|51.6/48.7|51.9/51.0
Cargo Volume (cu. Ft., seat up/down)|20.6 / 57.3|15.9 / 31.5|10.4 (trunk)
Passenger Volume (cu. Ft.)|90.8|85.0|90.9
|||
Price|$15,550|$19,800|$23,650

2010 Insight-II Real World Impressions and FE capability

The Insight-II "Long Lead" media launch commenced with a technical presentation and some pre-arranged driving loops. One loop consisted of a 107 mile round trip and afterward, two optional shorter driving loops consisting of a FE challenge segment and a somewhat sportier driving segment through the local mountain passes around Phoenix, AZ. The media launch was held twice over a period of four days with twenty-five journalists attending on days one and two while another twenty-five attended the launch on days three and four.

Distance Driving segment

During the longer distance drive, there was a climb and fall of approximately 1,000’ between the starting and driver swap locations. Reaching the second location, we swapped drivers and drove a similar route back. This was achieved in a non-setup and brand new Insight-II...

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/615/72_6_mpg_over_53_8_miles.jpg
Respectable FE for the first time out!

The Canadian Journalist I drove with was more of a sport oriented driver and tested the Insight-II’s real world performance capabilities as he saw fit. There was quite a bit of laughter at our expense later on in the day from other journalists as they heard how I drove him to insanity on the way out... and he did the same to me while I was holding onto the door handles for dear life on the way back! :D Levity aside, he still pulled an excellent 46 mpg segment on the return trip with his foot on the floor and me cringing in fear. :) When we completed the loop, it was time for lunch and a small respite before everyone prepared for the optional afternoon Fuel Economy Challenge or Sport driving segment(s). Most journalists achieved mid 40 to low 50 mpg totals on the long drive which again was quite respectable in my eyes -- especially considering the terrain challenges and general unfamiliarity with the vehicle. Add to this the typical car reviewer wring out for previews and the numbers are even more favorable.

Fuel Economy Challenge Segment(s)

Fortunately, many of the journalists from both groups decided to spend their afternoon pushing the Insight-II to fuel economy levels they have probably never experienced before. The course consisted of a 16 mile round trip with perhaps a 300-400’ climb on the way out and a similar descent on the way back. Unfortunately, there were 3 stop signs inconveniently located on the downhill section so soon after hitting terminal velocity, it was on the binders once again. Of course, we also had to contend with the all-important time limit of 35-minutes.

FE Challenge Results

Vehicle|Technique Level|Time (min.)|FE Results (mpgUS)
Insight-II|Basic|35 |66.x
Insight-II|Intermediate|30|69.x
Insight-II|Advanced|32|78.x
Insight-II|Advanced/Competition|*|*
| | |
Insight-I w/ CVT|Advanced/Competiton|35|83.4
| | |
HCH-II|Advanced|34|55.x**
| | |
Prius-II|Advanced/Competition Level|35|95.4****Not enough time for a fourth run on Day 4.
** Caught behind a school bus for 4-stops
*** 7-Bars to 5-bars of Soc (20% SoC reduction worth maybe 20 mpg on this short a loop)

The fuel economy for both groups proved to be far beyond my expectations with an average of 65.x mpg! Aside my own experiences, the best segment went to a TOV driver named Jeff on Day 4 of the event. He achieved what I would call an amazing 70.x mpg trip. He also made it within the minimum time period IIRC. Nice job Jeff!

A few tidbits I thought were interesting. Terminal speed on the downhill section of the FE challenge course showed that the HCH-II had the fastest non-powered roll achieving a top speed of 55 mph under a FAS. The Prius-II was number two at 50 mph under Warp-Neutral while the Insight-I and Insight-II saw a top speed of 48 mph.

During the initial climb out to the peak, the HCH-II saw a high of only 42 mpg which was far and away the lowest FE of all the vehicles driven and before the school buses held her back. Not a good showing. In contrast, the Insight-II saw a range from 46 to 56 mpg during the climb.

Another facet... Since I could not take the Insight-II to an empty parking lot for a seat of the pants handling test, I had the opportunity to run her through a chicane like segment as I entered the Resorts entrance and then into a parking lot area at the end of the multiple fuel economy challenge runs. The Insight-II handled the best of the group with its four wheels just beginning to chirp in a well controlled slight drift (no under or over steer) before I brought her down to 0 mph. The HCH-II had its standard understeer to balanced steering as she was brought to a halt. The Prius-II was an understeer and held onto the binders before she really got out of hand. Surprisingly, the Insight-II with its solid torsion beam rear suspension handled that section with the least amount of driver input while proving to be the most confidence inspiring of all the vehicles driven during the week.

Practical space

This is an area of the preview that the Insight-II had some trouble. While it is a sub-compact, the rear seats were very hard to enter into without tapping your noggin on the rear roof line during entry (I'm over 6'0). There was plenty of headroom once you were seated. Second, the leg room behind the driver was at a premium. If there is a tall driver in front, there should not be a tall passenger directly behind as the pictures show. Finally, the rear foot well was so tight it was difficult to fit my shoes under the front seat.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/615/2010_Honda_Insight_F_R_seat_room.jpghttp://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/615/2010_Honda_Insight_F_R_seat_room_2.jpg

And the good? With the 15.5 cu. ft. of storage space behind the rear seats with them up and ready to accept passengers bests the Prius’ 14.4 cu. ft. by a good margin. Unlike previous IMA implementations in the Insight-I, HCH-I, Accord Hybrid and the HCH-II, this vehicle has a fold down rear seat -- a wonderful and very welcome surprise.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/615/2009_Insight_EX_Int010.jpghttp://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/615/2009_Insight_EX_Int009.jpg

2010 Insight-II team members

I was extremely fortunate and honored to meet the engineers responsible not just for the Insight-II but also the CRX-HF, Insight-I, HCH-I, Accord and HCH-II! They loved playing the Formula One Sim after each day’s events too. :)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/Honda_Engineers_responsible_for_the_Insight-II.jpg
The Honda Engineers who designed our rides from the wheels up.
From Left to Right: Yasunari Seki - Chief Engineer and Lead Project Leader,
Shinko Ogayo, Yuji Fujiki, Hideharu Takemoto Assistant Chief Engineer and Hiroshi Guto.

I was also fortunate to meet the many members of the US Honda American PR team responsible for not just the Insight but everything else including all the Honda/Acura vehicles, lawn mowers, outboard engines, and even generators. It is amazing that they have time to launch the vehicles when you consider the rest of the duties they are responsible for! This group of dedicated individuals works more like a business family than a collection corporate employees... which probably explains how they can do all the things they do with the limited resources available.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/Honda_Marketing_Members_responsible_for_the_Insight-II.jpg
The American Honda PR and Media team.
From Left to Right: Chris Naughton, Angie Nucci, Sage Marie (back),
Christine Yu, Todd Mittleman, Chuck Schifsky and Kurt Antonius.

Conclusion

What about the Insight-II’s lower FE rating vs. the HCH-II? The Insight-II’s Cd is .01 higher but its frontal area is approximately the same percentage smaller so that is a wash. The Insight-II’s tires are not the lowest RR with the design team looking for a balance between good grip and great FE. This factor will only subtract a half mpg at best. The Insight-II weighs almost 150 pounds less than the HCH-II which should bump the FE rating up another few tenths. Still a wash and not worth the 2 mpg loss while on the highway.

So what could it be? For one, the EPA ratings were achieved without the ECON button engaged which is worth perhaps 1 mpg or so. The next answer came just two days ago when I received updated specs and sure enough, the answer was there. While looking at the Insight-II’s CVT and Final drive ratios, the answer became obvious. The HCH-II uses a taller top CVT ratio and 1” larger diameter tires. Even with the slightly shorter final, the HCH-II turns 1,679 RPM at 60 mph whereas the Insight-II is turns a still respectable but much higher 1,867 RPM at the same. Maybe the loss of the High Performance VTEC Valve Timing mode left the Insight-II in need of a shorter geared solution for better acceleration.

The distance segment is what displayed the Insight-II’s real prowess. Just like the HCH-II (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15422), get her rolling and she will pay you back with saved $’s in your wallet while skipping gas stations by the hundreds. The new CVT programming is much faster than either the Insight-I and HCH-II allowing for possibly a much better result in and amongst a heavy traffic stop and crawl as evidenced by the HCH-II’s poor climbing FE during its challenge drive. Honda’s CVT implementation in the Insight-II is the best yet.

While behind the windscreen of the Insight-II, I judged it to be equally capable of the excellent fuel economy that many of us have experienced from its more expensive brother, the HCH-II.

If the estimated MSRP arrives between $17,995 and $18,995, Honda will have a hit on their hands for their target market.

A slideshow of the entire grouping of Insight-II pics can be seen through the following link: Insight-II Interior and Exterior (http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/slideshow.php?photo=9877&cat=615) pictures.

http://www.youtube.com/v/3ikQ6nzfpKs&hl=en&fs=1
2010 Honda Insight-II -- Video Review

Wayne

WOW it was really worth the wait. Like you said Wayne, if the price tag hits btw 18 and 19k, they may not be able to make them fast enough! Was that 70+ from a non hypermiler??? 80+ with the techniques??? At below 20k, it'll be the best thing since sliced prius! This is definitely a contender when I'm shopping around for a replacement!

Did you happen to notice if there was an AUX IN on the stereo for the LX trim? The LX sounds fine to me, but it looks like you might need the EX if you want to run an iPod/MP3 player into the sound system.

The Honda Insight-II specifications page is restricted. I got an error message when clicking on the link saying I didn't have permission to view the page.

It's good to see a hybrid coming in at under $20k, although we're still waiting on that final price. The fold down rear seats are awesome, and the new ECO Assist seems like a pretty cool feature for the masses. The rear headrests lower so they're flush with the top of the seat. This is a nice feature; they don't do that in my Civic, and it reduces my visibility through the rearview mirror. It doesn't seem like the Insight II is really breaking new ground in terms of raw mpg numbers. It's impact will be in its price undercutting the other hybrid options thus making it available to more people. This is consistent with Honda's claims of a global hybrid. (But I can still dream of a 4 seater Insight-I, can't I?)

Looking at the dash pictures, I don't see a state of charge indicator for the batteries. :confused:

I'm a bit surprised the Cd is higher than the HCH II. I would have thought the hatchback design would lend itself to an improvement over the sedan. Also, the EPA city rating only matches the HCH II. With an improved IMA, CVT, and lower weight, I expected an improvement here as well. Oh, and I miss the LED headlights from the concept. ;)

Thanks for the review, Wayne!

Its shape looks like it would easily lend itself to the installation of aero mods similar to those installed on my car and its hatch design would be easy to add a boattail onto similar in design to mine (which would double the seats-up cargo volume). So imagine what kind of mileage you could get in a Cd 0.17 Insight II cruising at 65mph on the interstate (in addition to a greatly reduced level of wind noise).

Don't forget the mileage numbers for epa was not recorded in eco mode which I assume would give even better economy when driven hyper-consciously.

Thanks for the review. I've been waiting for this day for a while, to read about the new Insight. If the price comes in under 18K, I might even consider one, and I have only bought 3 new cars since 1970!

Good review. I like the inclusion of the marketing targets. But, I now find the "HIII" (new acronym, pronounced "hee?") confusing. In short, it doesn't appear to have anything over the Prius or HCH, except price?

Features and performance appear to "give and take" the others, simply putting a finer slice on the market between the Fit, HCH and Prius. It doesn't seem to distinguish itself.

Am I missing something?

Looks like Honda has a 2010 CRX on it's hands. :Banane44:

Looks like a nice LITTLE car. I like the eco mode. I don't believe it will have much impact on Prius sales or HCH2 sales for that matter. I'll keep my HCH2. I thought they may do better! H:confused:

If I was in the market for a car at all, this would probably be my choice.

As it is, I can't afford it as it won't save me enough in gas to make it's payments.

It's something to keep in mind in case my room mates car dies though.

(But I can still dream of a 4 seater Insight-I, can't I?)
Taking another look at Wayne's numbers, the Insight II actually didn't fair too badly compared to the Insight-I (CVT). (The Insight-I with manual tranmission and lean burn is still head and shoulders above anything else).

EPA's numbers:
2006 Honda Insight-I CVT 45/49/47
2010 Honda Insight-II CVT 40/43/41

Wayne's numbers:
Insight-I CVT Advanced/Competiton 35 min 83.4 mpg
Insight-II CVT Advanced 32 min 78.x mpg

Notice the Insight-II still pulled almost as good numbers as the Insight-I despite a faster course time and non-Competition level hypermiling. I'm warming up to it. ;) I'm looking forward to it hitting dealer lots and shortly afterwards, the CleanMPG mileage logs.

Wayne, did you have a chance to hook up a ScanGauge? Any indications of SHM or SAHM?

Awesome writeup Wayne! That included all of the information I was looking for. Sounds like the FE potential is better than the EPA numbers suggest. Passenger space is a little lower than I was hoping -- a full 10cf smaller in the passenger compartment than the Prius -- and if I'm not mistaken qualifies this as a subcompact and not a compact per EPA rules.

The 85+16cf of space will make it significantly smaller than our Golf (88+18cf). But I think that as long as it has the 16cf of cargo space, hatch and split-folding seats it should be just doable for most of our family roadtrips.

For my part, the LX would be just fine since it does have the MP3-Aux port. The VSA of the EX would be enticing but not enough to justify the price to me. The heated mirrors would be nice but heated seats would be far more likely to compel me into the EX if they were offered.

For the money, an awesome package and I predict it will sell almost as well as the Prius. Would be by far the most compelling thing out there for me if we were in the market for a new car.

I was hoping for more (size and FE). But if this matches the interior size of my old Accord (I'm trying to track down the numbers), if it will hold two bikes under the hatch, then it is big enough. Honestly, that trusty old '86 Accord Hatchback is big enough for anything my household needs except for throwing in the kitchen sink on the longest road trips, or the infrequent carpooled outdoor outing. And I'll still have Suby for that.

The spouse is not yet ready to junk dependable and paid-for cars, but I'm becoming increasingly nervous about the outdated safety level of our '80s era Hondas. This would appear to be a wonderful choice to replace that pair.

But I need to see Prius-III too...

I know that my needs in a vehicle are pretty specialized.

I need (want):
High FE
Room for 2 people (more without cargo is good)
Specialized cargo room. Catfishing equipment doesn't take up much room, but the rods are very long even when I take them apart (biggest is 15' long, but it's a 2-piece so each section is almost 8' long).

It's not often that I see a CAR that fits these cargo needs, which is why I originally bought the Ranger.
But with this one the rods would fit (with the back seats down) and I could still take another person with me.

I really wish I was in the market for a new car.

Hmm... well at one level I guess I'm a bit pleased to see my newish car isn't going to be totally obsolete FE wise now.... although WTF the Insight-II offers even more options and standard features than the HCH for the price....

I suppose if I had waited 8 months I could have had the USB connectivity too but LED lights? Heated mirrors? Color changing dash???? WAAAHHHHH I WANT!!! :eyebrow:

Nice comprehensive review.
The authors noted that the Prius moved 95 mpg on the 16 mile economy test track, but ended the route with two bars less of electrical energy in the battery. They write that about 20 mpg should be deducted from the 95 mpg result to correct for the battery change.

Two bars of SoC is about 1 mile of driving, so the 1/6th gallon of fuel consumed is over 15 rather than 16 miles. Works out to 90 mpg +/- one bar.

Wayne,

Can you confirm if the seats in the new Insight are the same as the current Civic seats?

Could the next HCH II have the new IMA system and have folding seats too? That would be such a plus to an already great car.

Also, is the Insight II also as "Assist-happy" when nearly fully charged as the HCH II?

And what is the needle on the "Charge/Assist" displays? It mirrors the Fuel Gauge needle. Does it represent the SoC?

Jess

Hi, Jess!

The HCH-III is slated to receive many of the IMA improvements of the Insight-II and from what we've heard, yes -- it will have a fold down rear seat. :)

No, the Insight is not nearly as "assist happy" -- it is much easier to stay out of the pack in this car.

The Charge/Assist display is the same as what is found on other Honda Hybrids but it uses a needle instead of digital bars. There appears to be some damping in the response time and because it is a needle it is difficult to know when zero charge flow has been achieved, but it is generally the same information as what you are accustomed to on the HCH dash.

SoC can be found by cycling through displays in the small, rectangular display centered in the tachometer.

Thanks for the response.

Funny about the needles on the Insight b/c the concept had all these "LCD" displays. I would have expected more digitization.

It's nice to see the technology advancing for the better, fortunately, I'm very happy with I have.

Jess

Hi All:

___I wanted to wait to reply until some of our competitors had knocked out their own previews so as to not steal our own inside look. Some of what is posted below is going directly into the other journalists blogs because the reviewers do not have quite the same “insight’s” (no pun intended ;)) that we do.

___ Ophbalance, the 2010 Honda Insight-II LX includes an auxiliary input jack for an MP3 player and Windows Media® audio playback capability from the preliminary spec sheets made available to us.

___Fanamingo, the SoC indicator is buried within the small MFD within the speedometer cluster. It is buried and I suspect Honda did that to remove the complaints about SoC going away and coming up during a recal and around town driving where the standard driver always burys an IMA equipped hybrids SoC? FE reduction... The shorter CVT ratios reasons took the Insight-II down. With the higher Cd and smaller frontal area, aero drag forces are approximately equal between the Insight-II and HCH-II. In local driving, the Insight-II will do better due to lower weight and its CVT action is so much better for an intermediate to advanced driver. It is on the highway where I suspect the HCH-II will beat the incoming Insight-II. Remember this is a low cost hybrid for the masses, not the most fuel efficient available. Honda cut ~ $5,000 in costs and had to leave a lot of FE on the table during its design. SG-II was only on for a short period and it was not enough to see much. SAHM is definitely there but I cannot say if it was at the same IGN and LOD or not. There was simply to much climbing and then Gliding/FAS’ing during the descents to see the details underneath. The engineers specifically said this vehicle has an Atkinson cycle intake unlike the HCH-I’s lean-burn or the HCH-II’s straight iDSI combustion control technology and when any of us get some time behind the wheel on our own local routes, there should be a bit more there to discover.

___Basjoos, wind noise was already low but I suspect its 1869 RPM at 60 is what will hamper its ability on the highway as Aero is decreased. It will still do better of course but I do not see someone adding a boat tail to a brand new $18,000 + automobile.

___JustBringIt, exactly :)

___SentraSE-R, with the Prius-III taking all the thunder at this year’s 2009 NAIAS (Detroit Auto Show), this may place some pressure on Honda to keep the Insight-II’s price down. If Honda touches $20,000 even on the fully equipped EX w/ NAVI, I think some buyers might instead turn to the a lower end Prius that offers significantly larger interior, better standard safety and other equipment (not including NAVI), more fuel efficient possibly under any condition and terrain and far better straight line performance. I look at the Insight-II LX and the Fit base w/ the CVT as equivalent other than the Hybrid drivetrain allowing 25% more FE per the 08 EPA. Think $15,550 w/ the CVT (MSRP) and add $1,500 for IMA Gen 5. Much more and Honda is padding its profit which they most certainly will.

___Flatty, Honda is targeting an entirely different market segment with the Insight-II. That being consumers that simply cannot afford a $24,000 to start 09 HCH-II or 09/10 Prius-II/III. If the price for the LX comes in at around $17K, this vehicle will open up an avenue for those that are simply not ready or do not have the income to support a $25,000 automobile. $17,000 to $20,000 for the EX with NAVI reaches an entirely different market which is what Honda has chosen to do with this exact vehicle.

___Harold, I doubt it will do anything to Prius-III sales but I believe it will have a major impact on HCH-II sales. If anything showing the disparity between the two on price alone is going to cause damage to HCH-II sales but this is my opinion. The HCH-II is simply not worth $5,000 - $6,000 more than the Insight-II given the Insight-II offers more interior cargo volume thanks to the hatch but less legroom vs. the HCH-II. The HCH-II includes more power but size is a wash for a two person family not needing the rear seat legroom. We are talking about 5 Cu. Ft. here. Again this is only my opinion but the HCH-II seems really over priced now that the Prius-III is almost upon us while the Insight-II sits under it. That is unless Honda prices the Insight-II LX at something crazy like $19,995 with the EX w/ NAVI approaching $23,000. If so, Toyota will own both the Insight-II and HCH-II and the 90,000 units to the US and 10,000 to Canada will be a pipe dream.

___Dan, indeed. The lack of an Armrest and CC is what bothers me about the LX. We are talking about less than $25.00 OEM and to not include those two items really cheapens up the vehicle.

___Fuzzy, you bet when it comes to Safety. I do not feel comfortable driving around in a pre-2000 anything without side and side curtains. Adding to the package is the structurally soft to hardened steels through the crush zones to the front and rear make these new vehicles modern marvels. Honda always excel’s in the crash tests and the Insight-II should be a Top Pick for the sub-compact class just as the Fit is today. This is probably the only vehicle I would like to see my 16 year old driving in fact given its relatively mild performance, excellent FE and absolutely top notch safety HW included.

___The parents purchasing for their children is another market that Honda did not mention during the presentations. It would make perfect sense for a parent to purchase this vehicle vs. just about anything else for their kids to go to work or off to college as just two examples. I do not believe in this myself as there is a bus for HS students and college kids can be dropped off and picked up months later. A high school student needing to own a $17,000 + vehicle for work is like saying you need a minimum wage job to afford caviar. There is no way to even think a HS boy or girl could afford the payments, tax, license, insurance, fuel and of course depreciation for a vehicle costing as much as we think the Insight-II may cost... That being said, you can see parents do purchase their children vehicles in the parking lot of any High school in America.

___GreenVTEC, remember the LED’s are only in the rear. The Halogen’s are projector beam however which is pretty cool for a vehicle in this expected price range.

___SageBrush, we had some solid Prius-II SoC reduction FE calc’s at the World Fuel Economy Championships last summer on the all-out 16 mile course and although I believe 20 mpg is a little high for the Prius-II FE estimates, I have no doubt given the inability to run in an efficient pulse while climbing on the first half of the course and the damn stop signs forcing full stops (or very close to them) on the downside really took a toll. The Prius-II pulling possibly 85 mpg with a SoC equivalent would probably be about right. For the Insight-II to match, I would have to go competitive and may not have made the 35-minute time while doing so?

___JSmithy, the seats are not the same. Lumbar on the HCH-II really stands out vs. the Insight-II’s lack (or apparent lack of that feature). The cloth texture was completely different as well. I hate to say the word cheap but a more inexpensive feel would possibly describe the differences from Insight-II to HCH-II cloth to cloth.

___Jess, I can bet the next gen HCH-II will include Fold down seats. With the Prius-III release, Honda has to really ramp up the HCH-II’s FE to compete with the Prius-III. MSantos has seen the IMA implementation that will help Honda’s IMA program reach Toyota’s HSD but Honda has a lot of work ahead to make it as bullet proof as it needs to be before it hits the masses. Assist happy... Given the Analog gauge, I would say not but that needle could have been buffered in such a way to really not know what was going on. The SoC indicator as mentioned above was buried in a variety of menu’s on the small MFD and I simply did not have time to work within it to see what was going on :(

___Finally, here are some additional pics of the European Insight-II. Notice the lower rear fascia includes brake lights and from the side, you can see the European EX alloy wheels. Different from what we will receive of course...

2010 Insight-II for European consumers

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/European_2010_Honda_Insight_-_Drivers_side_rear.jpghttp://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/European_2010_Honda_Insight_-_Passengers_side_view.jpg

___Good Luck

___Wayne

For our European members and readers, the European 2010 Honda Insight information went up this morning including the tax incentives across the Continent...

2010 European Honda Insight-II

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/615/2010_European_Honda_Insight-II_Side.jpghttp://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/615/2010_European_Honda_Insight-II_Passenger_Side.jpg

European cost savings

Added to its lower initial cost, the Insight offer many running cost savings including reduced tax burden, congestion charge exemptions and fewer trips to the filling station.

Ireland: Vehicle registration tax is 14% vs. 16 to 36% for other higher CO2 emitting automobiles. In addition hybrids receive €2500 rebate on the registration tax that is paid. Annual road tax is in the lowest band at €104 per year.

France: 2000 € directly deducted from Retail Price by dealer (private) €700 (company car)

Portugal: -50% on sales tax

Netherlands: Up to €6400 purchase tax relief for hybrids (dependent on fuel efficiency). CO2 (P<110/D<95g/km): 50% discount on road tax

Luxembourg: CO2 < 120g/km: €750 tax bonus

Norway: For sales tax calculation:
No kW tax on electrical engine.
25% car weight, before calculation of weight tax (compensation of battery pack)
Sweden: 10,000SEK rebate to private individuals who buy a green car (hybrid, ethanol, <120g CO2/km) - Corporate -40% benefit tax

Austria: Revise (Jul 08) car sales tax (No VA),
Full Hybrid (> 1Km electric only drive): €500 bonus (also applied for E85, CNG, LPG & H2 vehicles)
CO2: < 120g/km €300 bonus / > 180g/km €25/g malus (malus border to be reduced to 160g/km from 2010)
Switzerland: Incentives difference between Kantons:
Type A Hybrid: discount of VAT calculated on 50% of the vehicle price
Type B Hybrid: one-time incentive for CHF 5,000 ( IMA)
Type C Hybrid + 3l cars: one-time incentive for CHF 1,000
Italy: Incentive of up to €2800 for ecological car (includes hybrid)

Spain: 2 regions Andalusia and Castilla Leon up to 2000 € and 1890 € support respectively. And 75% discount - civil servants

Belgium: Tax incentive (SRP is calculation base)
If car < 105g/km CO2: -15% tax (max. 4,350€)
If car < 115g/km CO2: -3% tax (Max. 810€)
Greece: No Sales Tax for Hybrid Vehicles

Hungary: Fixed lower Reg Tax for Hybrid

Slovenia: No sales tax on vehicles emitting <110g

Finland: CO2 based car reg tax (%) = 4 + CO2/10

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wayne, the guys at Jalopnik give you good mention in their clever and quirkily correct Insight First Drive (http://jalopnik.com/5128524/2010-honda-insight-first-drive) review

They get all googly about the Civic i-CTDI, too. Better economy and performance...

Wayne got 78 mpg in the Insight, as mentioned in the first post of this discussion, and that was without pushing it to its full potential. I wouldn't discount it that soon.

See here: http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18649

Hi Andrew:

___There were two drive days, Day #2 and Day #4. I believe Jalopinik's guy(s)? were in Group #1 when the beginning and intermediate techniques were employed thus the 69.x mpg average. I do have to say Group #1 was far more animated and fun :)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wayne got 78 mpg in the Insight, as mentioned in the first post of this discussion, and that was without pushing it to its full potential. I wouldn't discount it that soon.

That's pretty good, but I do prefer the 85.5 mpg he got from the Civic's 0-60 in 8.5 sec 'performance' diesel. Imagine what an 'economy' diesel would do?

Wayne: My earlier post attempting to correct the Prius MPG for SoC discharge did not take into account the hysteresis and non-linear discharge/bar on the MFD display. Wayne Brown and friends came up with this discharge diagram: http://privatenrg.com/index.55.jpg

Do you remember the specifics of which bar to which bar the battery discharged ?

Hi SageBrush:

___The Prius dropped from a low 7 to low to mid 5 bars over the 16.x mile course.

___Are you speaking with Wayne and the gang in the Yahoo Prius2G private forum about this?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

hey so what is the MPG display for 70 mph and 80 mph respectively? RPMS too if anyone has that data.

Could this smoke a TDI in terms of highway cruising for mpg at 70 mph speeds?

I don't know too many of us that go 70, we don't condone speeding so data for 80 is probably going to be scarce first-hand.

Hi Phil:

___Like Kacey said. I get nervous over 65 as any screw up and you are more than likely dead.

___That is probably not what you wanted to hear but given the HCH-II at speed is a match for the Jetta and the Insight-II is geared a bit shorter, I would say it is close but the Jetta at speeds has the edge. Either way, the TDI’s are in the mid to high 30’s at those speeds and I suspect the Insight-II is in the same. This is less than half what I experienced at 50 +.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

hmm yeah i know the current civic im driving now its probably 20-25 mpg (guessing no scangauge on me) when I'm driving 120 km/hr (70mph?) with the rpms buzzing at 3100 rpm. 100 km/hr its like 2600-2700 rpm so i figured, for an extra 20 km/hr 300-400 more rpm doesn't seem like a bad trade) (1.7L 4spd auto non vtec) Even those at those speeds you really hear the valves clicking... but keep it pegged at 100 km/hr and everything sounds normal -___-;

i have long drives from time to time (150 km one way) and frankly Ive been losing my patience unfortunately so when i luckily one day get a new car (used insight II probably) i want something that can maintain those high speeds but wont get the engine so buzzy one cannot stand it.

heheh yeah it wasn't what i wanted to hear but i understand ;) but hey for the insight II 1000 rpms lower at 60 mph is a great start compared to the civic or the bimmer i have now... such buzz bees on the highway bleh.

for the record the prius II on a flat with tires at 50 psi i managed 1750-1900 rpms for 100 km/hr

one last edit: so the LX model would the steel wheelies hamper the insight II performance due to the extra unsprung weight?

edit II: is it true the insight II dropped electric a/c capability? So if the compressor turns on the engine has to start right?


edit III: yes they dropped electric a/c to favor cost/weight reduction, with ECON mode enabled auto-stop has higher priority than cooling the cabin.

Finaly someone does us a favor with the CC programing
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/615/Cruise_Control_ECON_Mode.jpg

I always thought it would be nice to have a 'cruise window'. Say if I set the cruise to 55 MPH I could set the window to +/- 1 to 10 MPH. When approaching a hill it would only gradually increase the throttle as vehicle speed fell back towards the low end of the window specified by the driver (and vice versa when descending a hill). But that is not something for a car in the Insight's price range.

I found out with a technician that the reason the projector beams don't glow on the white side of the spectrum like the S2000's projector beams do, is because it has regular low beams inside a projector beam lens.

Now I'm curious about the Accord Coupe and the old Pilot, do they actually have a type of HID, or are they just for styling too?

The EX adds the following to the equipment included in the LX model:

* 15” Alloy Wheels
* Center console with USB Audio port
* Cruise Control steering wheel control
* Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA)
* Heated outside mirrors w/ external turn indicators
* All driver/passenger window switches lit
* Driver passenger Vanity mirrors and Map Lights
* Variable Int. wipers
* Seat Pockets

I highlighted minor items in bold that should be standard on a base model of any car.

Do vanity mirrors reduce the glare from headlights in nighttime driving?

Is side air bags included or available as an option?

Well at least they now have the fold down rear seats that the civic hybrid lacks.
I don't know why honda just makes a mild assist hybrid ? My prius is a full hybrid and can run on electric alone. I'm adding battery capacity to make it a plug-in hybrid this month which you can't do with the hondas.

The mild hybrid is so 70's. Full Hybrids even have a cleaner atkins cycle Internal Combustion Engine that is 8 times cleaner. We have to urge all auto makers to really move ahead. There is much more to a hybrid than the label on the side of the vehicle. The Tahoe Hybrid is a case in point....

Hi KrazyDawg:

___Vanity mirrors are simply mirrors in the back of the visors. The Insight-II’s Side airbags are standard equipment on all trim levels.

___Jstack6, Honda’s Mild Hybrid solution is a bit beyond the 70’s.

___About the Prius being 8-times cleaner, that is not the case. The HCH-II, Civic GX, Accord PZEV, and Accord Hybrid PZEV are cleaner than the Prius. The Insight-II is just as clean when purchased in the Clean States at Tier II/Bin 3.

___Regarding FE... On the highway, the HCH-I, II and Insight-II receive better FE than the Prius-II and I suspect –III in my short time behind the wheel of each.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

___Regarding FE... On the highway, the HCH-I, II and Insight-II receive better FE than the Prius-II and I suspect –III in my short time behind the wheel of each.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

This is surprising considering the tougher EPA ratings put the Prius III a good bit (5 MPG?) over the Insight II on the highway. I would love to see what they are getting with the cruise on at 65 MPH, both in Eco mode.

Hi Rich:

___Although the Prius-III we previewed was a late edition prototype, it was close enough to the actual release to make a good comparison. Reread it for some of the Highway driving details...

___The Insight-II is close to the HCH-II on the highway as you can see in the highway loop FE drive. The 48-Contiguous State drive proved the Honda's highway capability. The Prius-III's highway capability was not nearly as surprising and/or apparently as capable.

___Until the consumer released Prius-III's are in our hands, we will not know for sure. I try to describe in most posts t those that ask, taking a Prius to 70 mpg on the highway is the most work you will ever do in your life and few will ever achieve it. Doing the same and even better in the HCH-II or Insight-II is a lot easier and most anyone could with a minimal amount of work.

___The EPA does not do the high FE capable vehicles justice and the Honda's are near the top of that list.

___Holding 65 mpg under CC is not recommended in any vehicle let alone the hybrids.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

* Driver passenger Vanity mirrors and Map Lights
I highlighted minor items in bold that should be standard on a base model of any car.
I'll raise you the vanity mirrors and map lights. I'm dumbfounded that these and seatback pockets would be omitted from a $20,000 car.

Just the same, cheezy-looking but functional aftermarket replacements are available for these items. I'd be willing to save a big chunk of money on the LX, but I can already see that the LX will be a very small percentage of sales. Most people will upgrade for the cruise control alone, and certainly the VSA on the EX is a very nice thing to have.

Honestly both cars look very promising, but it's the real world driving that will be the most important. While the Insight may excel with certain techniques, it's the car that will do the best under "just drive it" conditions that truly wins.

65 MPH is not recommended... by who? Like it or not that is the right-lane speed on the PA Turnpike. I get away with 62 until I encounter heavy merging traffic.

Lets say...
Windows up, AC off, tires at max sidewall, 40°F outside, Eco mode on, cruise at 62.

I wonder if one or the other will be pulling 55 MPG.

The Fit is good for 43 under similar conditions, (45+ if its warm)

Hi Dan:

___I suspect Honda would have included the armrest, CC and the vanity mirrors if they knew where the Prius-III was going to come in at. Pricewise that is. As it was told to us during the marketing presentation, Honda expects < 25% of the Insight-II's to be purchased as LX's.

___Rich, "Just drive it" can mean a lot of things depending on your location, route, distance and conditions at any given time. This is where the EPA sorts it out. Just drive it means we import over 60% of our daily needs which is not Good for anyone.

___I can only speak of the Prius-III allowing just 59.9 mpg actual (odo/pumped fuel in a top off) and 65.x per the FCD on the all-highway drive in mid to high 30 degree temps during the night. This was after I had pressed up the 15" wheeled Ecopia's during the Prius-III preview in Napa Valley, CA. The Insight-II's 72.6 mpg highway drive was achieved in temps of 60 degrees in a non-setup Insight-II in Carefree, AZ.

___In the conditions you described, 50 to 55 mpg sounds about right for both vehicles???

___Regarding 65 mph CC, an accident at that speed and your essentially dead. The slower you can drive, the more chance you have to anticipate, slow and hopefully avoid before the actual impact occurs. Thus my recommendation not to drive that fast if you can avoid it.

___Good Luck

___Wayne