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If the Prius costs $2,673 less a year for gas than the Ram, but costs $10,628 more, it would take four years for the Prius to make up the difference with its gas savings. More, if you drive less than 15,000 miles a year... (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/orl-ymsmith1708aug17,0,3143428.column)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/2007_Cadillac_Escalade.jpgSteven Cole Smith - Orlando Sentinel - August 17, 2008

I'm reminded of a strip Dogbert is selling a "discount" lottery ticket, that after the buyer received it, turned out the drawing was yesterday - Ed

Years ago - decades, actually -- I took a course on real estate taught by an agent who had some good advice for selling a house: You need to work up to a price people will pay for your house, rather than work down from what you think it's worth.

That advice, brutal as it may be, applies to a large portion of the auto industry now: Certain segments of the market, notably trucks and SUVs, aren't selling. So dealers and manufacturers keep lowering prices. In a sense, they're starting at the value of the steel and rubber, and working up, rather than starting at the list price and working down.

So here's the question: At what point do gas guzzlers become a good buy?
… http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/orl-ymsmith1708aug17,0,3143428.column

I wish they had figured in financing also into the equation. Even at 2.9-3.9% that Prius is going to get much more expensive than a highly discounted Ram with a down payment of say $3,000 on both. If your replacing you vehicle every 5 years that could make a big difference. Also the resale value on Prius's has been inflated recently due to the limited numbers available on the used vehicle market. With the advances in technology over the next few years an older Prius may be viewed no more favorably than a Cobalt or Focus.
I posted before of seeing an Insight on a used car lot by me back late winter 07 beginning 08 for $5,995. Try finding an Insight in good shape for twice that amount today.

This is Edmonds shilling for the car dealers. Still, the Impala could be a good deal.It can get decent or better than decent mpg and is a comfortable car. Now the SUV guzzlers are a much bigger two part gamble.One if gas hits $6-$8, then you made the wrong bet and will pay with $250 fillups. Two, your $30,000 vehicle will be absolutely unsaleable when gas hit $8 gallon. A new big SUV is a bad bet for a middle class family. Now a used SUV- 50,000 miles or so for $11,000 isn't such a bad bet. If it becomes impossible to sell you can just drive the wheels off it(while paying high fuel prices of course).

You had better be affluent if you are planning to by a full sized SUV.
Charlie

I Even at 2.9-3.9% that Prius is going to get much more expensive than a highly discounted Ram with a down payment of say $3,000 on both.

Why make the comparison to the Prius, though? Why not to say the Toyota Yaris or Honda Fit, both of which have MSRPs closer to what that discounted Ram is going for? Then you're paying the same up front, but using maybe 1/3 as much gas.

shamelessly carrying water for the big 2.5 -


Issue 1:
Let's see - a 4 year old Prius is selling for - guess maybe 75% of MRSP

and a 4 year old FSP ? - 25% ? 20% ?



Issue 2:
Only a fool would bet tens of thousands of dollars that gas prices are going to stay where they are in 4-5 years - Why take the risk that gas might end up at $6 in 2012 ?

With the advances in technology over the next few years an older Prius may be viewed no more favorably than a Cobalt or Focus.


The Prius is obviously looked more favorably upon than a Cobalt or Focus right now. What technology would change that? Any new technology that makes a current Prius look less desirable will certainly not help how a Cobalt of Focus is valued. A Prius will always be better than a Focus for several reasons, with fuel economy the most obvious.

Harry

Actually, the above story is good news to those people and companies that actually have a valid need for trucks and SUV type vehicles. Perhaps it will bring trucks back to what they were meant to be, a tool for work.

I did say an older Prius. The new Cruz looks like a 45-50 highway mpg vehicle.
Look at what some people on this board are getting with the 08 Focus ?
You think the 2010 isn't going to get 20% better than the 08's with close to $4 gas ?
Prius is a 45 mpg vehicle. I not putting down the Prius I was just making a point.
I just checked Auto Trader in Pittsburgh and there is a 2005 Prius for $14,500 with
70K plus miles. The others 07's and 08's run between $27K and $33K.
So I want to know where your buying a new Prius for $21K-22K?
Based on 2.99 percent financing.
$3,000 down on a $28K Prius gets you a monthly payment of $492
$3,000 down on a $18.5K Corolla gets you a monthly payment of $307
60 months X $185 difference in payments = $11,100

And there are people getting deals on the Corolla's. :)
No one is dealing on a Prius. :(

Five years from now we could have $6.00 gas and you can bet that we will have a lot more choices on high mpg vehicles than we have now.

You and I look at a Prius or Honda Hybrid and we look at how much we can exceed the EPA, but 97% of population will be lucky to get the EPA numbers.
There is a big difference between those two numbers.

Five years from now we could have $6.00 gas...

Though my guess is that $9 gas in five years is a lot more likely, and it wouldn't surprise me much if it was higher.

Though my guess is that $9 gas in five years is a lot more likely, and it wouldn't surprise me much if it was higher.

Then we will have 15% unemployment. :(

Please, you're bringing back bad memories of the Jimmy Carter years.

Actually, the above story is good news to those people and companies that actually have a valid need for trucks and SUV type vehicles. Perhaps it will bring trucks back to what they were meant to be, a tool for work.

You know, I would be interested in getting a new work truck if discounted enough and stripped down to bare essentials and a 5 spd stick. Unfortunately that is not the kind of vehicles that they are promoting. :(

2006: Study claims an H2 is environmentally greener than a Prius from assembly to junkyard

2008: Article claims gas guzzlers will make you financially greener than purchasing a Prius...maybe if you hardly drive it.

I could write up some windy post about short memory, responsibility, marketing, blah blah blah...no point. This is just part of the process that will ultimately lead us to a more fuel efficient fleet. Having to sell FSPs at a bargain-basement price while efficient cars earn a premium is a loud message to manufacturers and their dealers that the market is headed in a new direction. So what if a few people are dumb enough to take the bait and use it as a commuter? They will regret that decision soon enough. And the pain of the "fire sale" will be felt in Detroit, hopefully not too late to make a difference.

Just watch and see what happens.

brick, glad you added the words "use it as a commuter". There are several guys I work with and several relatives who are watching the falling truck prices closely to decide when to buy a replacement truck. They do use their trucks to commute back and forth to work but they also use it for home AC repair, mobile home repair, repair farm tractors, haul hay to nearby farms, replace carpet and flooring, house painting, carpentry, and replace auto windshields.

Hi All:

___There is absolutely no reason for a full-size P/U or SUV. If there was, the Europeans and Asian’s would be using them too. Guess what? They are building their infrastructure, cities and towns without Ram’s and Durango’s for some reason?

___As for TCO, I just heard of a $60,000 2006 Lincoln Navigator owner who was offered $10K on trade with less than 40,000 miles on the ticker. The P/U’s fuel costs AND depreciation will kill you over 75,000 miles. The Prius’ resale has been high since the 2004’s were released. With higher fuel prices to look forward to in the future, a 50 mpg Prius will never have the same depreciation rate as a 27 mpg Focus or Cobalt no matter how old or new it is. All of this is based on the EPA, not what we could get out of one.

___If it were based on what we could get out of one the Yaris/Fit being punched to 60 + year round would be the hands down winner. Those two would also kill the Ram/Durango whatever…

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Over the years on the net, a few have gotten bent out of shape at the suggestion they would be ahead renting/borrowing a truck a few times a year when they actually need it - they absolutely hate me. Not very rational to hate me more than the 10-20K some of thes FSPs have taken from gas hikes in 2008....they gambled and lost. ;)

Sorry Wayne but I have to strongly disagree with you. Europe and Asia do have SUV type vehicles,...Range Rover for example. Show me another type of vehicle that can tow 5 to 10 thousand pounds, haul a bed full of gravel/dirt/fire wood, or pull a stump without the requirement of a special license and is legal to drive on the interstate. I've seen what passes for a pick-up truck in Europe. They are nothing more than a three wheel motor cycle with a cab in front and a tiny bed in back. Sure they're fuel efficient but at what cost? How many repeat trips do they have to take to make their deliveries compared to a fully loaded pick-up or SUV? The reason why they have such small trucks is because of the small width of many streets in Europe. The company my dad works for uses Ford F-150 trucks. Only a full size pick-up can haul some of the parts and equipment without the need of a flatbed trailer. One of my co-workers has acres devoted to hay for area farmers. He needs his truck to repair farmers' tractors and to tow a trailer full of hay to feed the animals.

Oh, did a quick check and found that Nissan and Toyota sell both pickup trucks and SUVs in Europe. Honda doesn't sell pickup trucks but they do sell SUVs in Europe. Ford sells a pickup in Europe.

Hi SailorDave:

___Ford sells the Ranger P/U truck in the UK. And it comes in a diesel as well. You cannot purchase an F-150 there. Range Rover for a work truck? Sounds like the Escalade owner that needs the urban assault vehicle to take the kids to soccer practice. They lost a ton too. I just saw an Escalade ad in the Chicago Trib last week. Brand new 08 Escalade’s for $22,000 off MSRP.

___Want to carry a few thousand pounds in Europe? Guess what they really use.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/Ford_Focus_S-Max_2_0L_TDCi_-_50_mpg_solo_-_33_mpg_while_towing_this.jpg
Ford Focus S-Max 2.0L TDCi -- 50 mpg when not towing, 33 when doing so.

___Here is a real Work truck…

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/Ranger_and_the_Landscape_Trailer_and_mowers.jpg

___That is about 4,000 pounds of my gear you see pictured and it has been on the highway. Its best tank is 51 mpg. Currently, the bed is absolutely topped off with Landscape debris and I took my wife around to stuff Mailboxes for Night the Light here in Chicago this evening. 27.9 mpg for the First and Second, hit the brakes with NICE-On effort over maybe 5 miles from dead cold.

___Ever seen an Expedition, Durango or Tahoe with their interiors filled with landscape debris?

___Even the local police use Explorers as Community service vehicles. Always one female driver and nothing in it but a few boxes. She should be driving a stripped Yaris instead. WTF and talk about stupidity :rolleyes:

___Needing a large work truck here in the US is about the dumbest thing 98% of those that own them have ever done considering the actual need, the residuals and week over week fuel costs.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

___Ford sells the Ranger P/U truck in the UK. And it comes in a diesel as well. You cannot purchase an F-150 there.

There are, however, a number of large US pickup trucks used there. Geneva airport security drives around in them (Dodge Ram, I think), or did about 3-4 years ago, when I lived in Switzerland. I also saw a couple of Hummers driving around there. Of course the area around Lake Geneva has a lot of wealthy foreigners, so they might have been imported by expatriate Americans.

___Needing a large work truck here in the US is about the dumbest thing 98% of those that own them have ever done considering the actual need, the residuals and week over week fuel costs.

I worked construction for years with '70s sized Toyotas and Datsuns. Also did a lot of travelling work (I'd travel to different job sites to touch up final detail work - the "punch list") around the southwest in a Mazda RX3 wagon, which carried all my tools just fine.

Needing a truck is one thing, but you could probably take a typical big pickup today, and while keeping the bed the same size, trim off at least a third of the weight & frontal area. The result would do the same work, and be cheaper to buy and fuel - but it wouldn't serve as a substitute for a little thing that a lot of the owners probably haven't seen in a while :-)

51 mpg in a ranger! Holy moly, thats gonna be my next truck!
Unless D-van lasts forever, and it just might! :p

While there area a few Hummers in Europe, there are plenty of roads too narrow for them...just search YouTube for TopGear when Jeremy tries driving an H1 in an English village. :D May have heard France has outlawed the bull bars.

While they may exist in Europe, they are nowhere as common as in the US.

Hi SailorDave:

___Ford sells the Ranger P/U truck in Europe. Range Rover for a work truck?

..........

___Needing a large work truck here in the US is about the dumbest thing 98% of those that own them have ever done considering the residuals and week over week fuel costs.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Actually there are trucks in a variety of sizes in Europe (google Iveco for instance), there just isn't as much market share and segmentation. My impression is that much more than 2% of large work trucks are used as large work trucks, but maybe the percentage is only 2% in the suburbs because that's not where people usually work. Some people need them.

Using your example, your Ranger won't haul much hay or firewood or pull serious earth moving equipment. If you're earning a living at any of those professions you'd want to haul bigger loads than what the rig you showed us is rated for (btw. the load pictured appears to be over the GCWR--drive it carefully). For example the 4 cyl Ranger is rated at a payload capacity 1260#'s, towing capacity 1580#'s---a cord of oak that you might have delivered weighs about 3700#'s, a one yard excavator bucket weighs 2,000- 4,000#'s, the usual big round hay bales are about 1500 #'s and you'd probably haul at least a half dozen of them at a time... Just some specific examples of payloads that my neighbors and I haul with big pickups on regular basis. For normal landscaping and handyman work a compact truck is usually the right tool for the job :), but there is a lot of work that needs a bigger tool than that, but still smaller than a semi.

You only have to watch the ads on TV to know that SUV's are marketed as station wagon/minivans for the mid-life crisis and poser tough guy crowds.

Full sized P/U s do have their place in the courier biz too, sometimes stuff is on a skid that wont fit in a compact truck, or van.
Unfortunatly large P/U runs are not very common so it would be more profitable for me to drive a small P/U.

Hi All:

Ford UK – Commercial vehicles (http://www.ford.co.uk/ie/all_vans/-/-/-/-/-/-)
No F-150’s, Explorer’s or Expeditions in that group?

Ford UK – Cars (http://www.ford.co.uk/ie/all_cars/-/-/-/-/-/-)
No F-150’s, Explorer’s or Expeditions in that group either?


___ILAveo, you have been sold on first up the mountain and first to the stop light with the larger P/U trucks. Those that are racing from field to field with just 3,500 #’s of wood in an F-250 or larger are the ones that should be careful and are taken to the cleaners each and every time they stop at the pump :(

___About hauling… Do European’s and Asian’s not haul earth moving equipment and Hay? Where are the F-150’s let lone the Super Duties in the UK?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

There are, however, a number of large US pickup trucks used there. Geneva airport security drives around in them (Dodge Ram, I think), or did about 3-4 years ago, when I lived in Switzerland. I also saw a couple of Hummers driving around there. Of course the area around Lake Geneva has a lot of wealthy foreigners, so they might have been imported by expatriate Americans.
Hi James, I spent a week in Switzerland last year and saw one Dodge Ram 1500 Hemi. The people driving it looked and sounded American. The truck itself had a small load in the bed, but nothing that something smaller couldn't handle. I maybe saw three North American style half-tons during that 15 day trip. The others were at an airport, but I don't remember which one.


Show me another type of vehicle that can tow 5 to 10 thousand pounds, haul a bed full of gravel/dirt/fire wood, or pull a stump without the requirement of a special license and is legal to drive on the interstate. I've seen what passes for a pick-up truck in Europe. They are nothing more than a three wheel motor cycle with a cab in front and a tiny bed in back. Sure they're fuel efficient but at what cost?
There are plenty of small trucks that can do that. I like to point to Australian trucks when complaining about trucks we should be using here. North American half tons and up are almost as scarce there as in Europe. The Australian Mazda BT-50 with the 3L diesel can tow 6600 lbs and has a payload of about 2600 lbs. It is rated at 25.5 mpg US combined. The Australian Holden Colorado is similar in terms of ability and fuel economy.

Using your example, your Ranger won't haul much hay or firewood or pull serious earth moving equipment.

Don't know about the Ranger, but an '80s Toyota pickup can be loaded with pine logs cab high and hanging off the tailgate, and will haul it over several miles of dirt, down a winding mountain road, and along a short section of freeway. I do this several times every year, to get my own firewood supply in.

Now if I was going to cut firewood for a living, or pull serious earthmoving equipment, I would buy a larger flatbed or stakebed truck, which would just be used for the hauling. Though personally, I think you'd have to be effing nuts to try hauling serious earthmoving equipment with anything but a semi. I wouldn't try pulling anything much over the size of a Bobcat with a big pickup.

...the usual big round hay bales are about 1500 #'s and you'd probably haul at least a half dozen of them at a time...

Since when have round 1500 lb bales been usual outside of a commercial livestock operation? Not around here: if you're feeding a few horses or such - which is probably the scale of what the small fraction of pickup owners that actually have livestock at all are doing - you'll get your hay in 2 or 3 wire bales, 80-150 lbs or so each, and you can haul a couple weeks worth for four horses with that same '80s Toyota. (I've done it occasionally, as a favor to the neighbors who generously let me have some of the used hay for my compost pile :-)) And even the semi loads of hay that go over the mountains to California from here are rectangular bales.

Once again, it's something which, if you're doing it commercially would be done much better with a larger flatbed truck.

You only have to watch the ads on TV to know that SUV's are marketed as station wagon/minivans for the mid-life crisis and poser tough guy crowds.

And those oversized pickups aren't? Not to say that some don't wind up being used for work, but most seem to be more like my neighbor's kid, who drives his jacked-up Dodge Ram (the result of a divorced parent trying to buy affection, I think) to his job at Taco Bell.

Since when have round 1500 lb bales been usual outside of a commercial livestock operation? Not around here: if you're feeding a few horses or such - which is probably the scale of what the small fraction of pickup owners that actually have livestock at all are doing - you'll get your hay in 2 or 3 wire bales, 80-150 lbs or so each, and you can haul a couple weeks worth for four horses with that same '80s Toyota.
Maybe it depends where you are from? I see big round bales in fields all over the place in Manitoba.

I rented an 8000lb trackhoe 3 years ago and pulled it home on a trailer with my 2wd Nissan Frontier CC.

Needing a truck is one thing, but you could probably take a typical big pickup today, and while keeping the bed the same size, trim off at least a third of the weight & frontal area. The result would do the same work, and be cheaper to buy and fuel - but it wouldn't serve as a substitute for a little thing that a lot of the owners probably haven't seen in a while :-)

That was the original idea behind the "midsize" Dodge Dakota. Retain the fullsize Ram's 1/2 ton rating and ground clearance while shrinking everything else.

It worked pretty well given the available tech and OTS components, especially with the extended cab option. Than the G2 Dakota ran into a serious bloat problem and became nearly as big as the Ram.

My co-worker wraps his hay in the large round bales. He loads them on a flatbed trailer and tows them with his Silverado. He repairs small to large tractors which he can tow with his truck. He doesn't tow the large combines. He also uses his truck to haul dirt and gravel to reserface his gravel road and other projects around the house. My folks keep their Dodge Caravan for plywood since my dad does carpentry. However, his Caravan doesn't get any better gas milege than a pick-up truck large enough for whole sheets of plywood. I agree that many people are buying trucks and SUVs just to ride around in. But don't you go around saying there is no need for pickup trucks and SUVs just because you seem to hate them. There is a need for such vehicles. If all the roads in Europe were as wide as they are here you'd see a lot more full size pickup trucks and SUVs doing work. There's just too many roads there that are too narrow for such vehicles.

I rented an 8000lb trackhoe 3 years ago and pulled it home on a trailer with my 2wd Nissan Frontier CC.

Guess we have a little misunderstanding about what constitutes serious earthmoving equipment. I think serious starts around e.g. a D7 Cat, which weighs in at 25 tons or more :-) Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterpillar_D7

But don't you go around saying there is no need for pickup trucks and SUVs just because you seem to hate them.

Now who's saying that? What I'm saying is 1) the great majority of jobs for which a pickup is needed (or even useful) can be done just as well, and at less cost, with a pickup that's a good deal smaller than the US "full-sized" pickup; and 2) the makers have been adding a lot of extra sheet metal &c to bulk up their trucks, making them appear larger (and get worse mpg) without increasing their useful load at all. Can you disagree with either?

Nor do I hate pickups: as I said, I've got one, and it comes in handy for hauling firewood or building materials, or for the few days in winter when the snow's too deep to play snowplow with the Insight.

...or for the few days in winter when the snow's too deep to play snowplow with the Insight.Can't resist: know of a guy that tore his Insight up and among other things attempted to use it as a snowplow. :D :eek:

james, read back and you'll see I was referring to Wayne who said because Europe and Asia don't seem to need pickup trucks and SUVs then we don't need them here and any work done by pickup trucks and SUVs can be done by those narrow minivans of europe

I had a first year Ford Ranger, 2 L, 4 speed manual. Great vehicle, geared for loads. Once I bottomed out the springs with a load of shingles, and had to split it into two loads. That vehicle was great as a new home owner, carried my washer and dryer, a 21 cubic ft. refrigerator/freezer, mulch, stone, concrete blocks, beds (and mostly for my neighbors). Great vehicle for making new friends. It even had two places in the back where I could place a couple two by sixs across the bed so I could carry 4x8 sheets of drywall and plywood. It got good gas mileage, but was crummy in the snow on crowned roads going up hill.

By the way Jamesqf, what kind of MPGs are you getting with your vehicles? You have an Insight, and a Frontier. Both purchased used I understand. Good deal on the Insight, you just don't see any for sale these days.

By the way Jamesqf, what kind of MPGs are you getting with your vehicles? You have an Insight, and a Frontier. Both purchased used I understand.

Insight is currently 70.7 mpg for a bit over 5 years and about 80K miles. Not quite as bad as it looks, since most of my driving is in the Sierra Nevada, going up & down mountains and over passes in winter snow (I ski a lot), which really kills mpg. In the summer I get around 80 mpg tank average.

The pickup's an '88 Toyota. I've never really tried to get an accurate mpg measurement on it, since I don't drive it much - one time since March, I think - and when I do it's either hauling stuff like the aforesaid logs piled cab-high, or driving in deep snow or really rough dirt roads. But a ballpark guess would be 20-25 mpg overall.

I got busy and sort of lost track of this thread. It sure sounds like a bunch of us enjoy exceeding our payload ratings--which sometimes I do too, but I don't enjoy it much ever since I broke the springs in my Escort wagon hauling railroad ties--which might also have had something to do with its later transmission trouble too:o. I'll be more specific about my examples.

A big pickup typically can pull (by which I mean is rated for) 20,000 lbs. and has a payload of one ton. The F350 where I work pulls all of that probably only about every two months, but once you figure in the lift gate, toolboxes and their contents, the bed payload probably gets exceeded every week. They learned they needed the big truck the hard way about 10 years ago when the frame of one of their towing S10's broke in two just in back of of the cab. The F350 will accommodate pulling a medium sized backhoe (don't know the weight) with some support equipment like a spare bucket or a hydraulic concrete breaker in the bed.

For short hauls, like around a farm, my rule of thumb is that if you're careful (accelerate slowly, make slow turns, stay off side slopes, park pointed slightly down hill, etc.) you can safely approximately double the payload. When I've done much more than that (e.g. put 6 tons on a 2 ton flatbed) the trucks had pretty squirrelly steering and braking. I occasionally put an estimated ton of wood (half a cord of oak) or, um, compost (a little less than 1 cu yard) on my Ranger, but I don't drive far or fast overloaded that way. If I regularly had to haul those loads I would probably upsize my truck the way my neighbors have because overloaded equipment doesn't last (see previous Escort and S10 anecdotes.)

@ jamesqf: Around here people who are trying to make money raising livestock generally use the round bales. Horse and other hobby livestock people usually use the square bales. The pasture/hayfield across from my house is hayed into round bales, but my younger son gets a few odd jobs stacking the small bales--I'd say around here it's about a 70-30 split between round and square bales which usually weigh about 50 lbs. They load a lot of square bales on a trailer, but I've never stopped to count so I can't estimate their loads.

@ Wayne: You can't look at my family's vehicles and believe I care much about being first up the mountain or making a big impression, but I still have fun--some of the stuff I've tried may be a little nuts in other ways.:)