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If you haven't yet heard of the Pickens Plan, then you've no doubt been on vacation: he has flooded TV and radio with thousands of ads urging viewers to log on to his Web site and demand that Washington overhaul the country's energy infrastructure. (http://www.newsweek.com/id/151727)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/T_Boone_Pickens.jpgKaren Breslau - Newsweek - August 14, 2008

As Forrest Gump once said: "Life is full of suprizes" - Ed

T. Boone Pickens (http://www.newsweek.com/related.aspx?subject=T.+Boone+Pickens) can't read his lines. Squinting at his teleprompter, he is posing in front of a mile-long ribbon of wind turbines, churning against an endless Texas sky. Pickens is in Sweetwater, a town of 12,000 that bills itself as the nation's wind-energy capital, to shoot a commercial urging Americans to put themselves on a new energy diet: cutting out imported oil—which costs $700 billion a year—in favor of domestically produced sources such as wind and natural gas. "Our dependence on foreign oil means that we are buying from our enemies," he drawls into the camera, veering from the script. At this, the director walks onto the set, frowning his disapproval. "Don't want me to say 'enemies', huh?" Pickens deadpans as he drops his head in mock shame and scuffs his cowboy boot in the dirt. "How 'bout 'Some friends and a few a––holes?' That better?".… http://www.newsweek.com/id/151727

He's right: Some of the folks we buy oil from are real a$$holes. We're bogged down in Iraq to make Haliburton rich, but all of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi Arabian.

^and Saudi funded

I found it funny that Pickens admits that the turbines are ugly to him and refuses to build even one on his ranch, but has no problems sticking them all over the Texas panhandle to reduce foreign dependency. I still don't know what to make of him but I've never questioned his bluntness whether it was with OSU or in petrol.

It's just another guy trying to scam the American people out of Billions of dollars.

Ever wonder why Nancy Pelosi doesn't want to drill?

Nancy-pelosi-invests-in-energy-scheme-and-water-grab-by-t-boone-pickens/ (http://dontgomovement.com/2008/08/11/nancy-pelosi-invests-in-energy-scheme-and-water-grab-by-t-boone-pickens/)

I don't like how he doesn't mention that it will cost everyone $3,000-$10,000 (depending on who you believe) to convert their vehicle to natural gas (who will actually do it for that price?). I'm all for using wind power and upgrading our grid to eventually allow huge solar arrays in the desert, but saying it will end or reliance on foreign oil does not make sense to me. It seems like there is a pink elephant in the room that everyone is ignoring.

Edit: bad math

Looking online at places actually advertising natural gas conversion, the price seems to be at the lower end. It doesn't seem unreasonable for some. I think it more likely that some percentage of new car sales would be natural gas instead of petrol. The fewer petrol burners the better.

When natural gas depletes, we'll have to make ANOTHER huge jump to electricity from solar/wind/biomass/geothermal (plus nuclear).

So why not just do that now and save ourselves the trouble?

Instead of going from the Titanic to the Titanic II to the lifeboat, let's just head out to the lifeboat.

I think we should take advantage of every form of power we have access to.

Drill in alaska, drill off shore, largely expand nuclear, wind and solar where it makes some sense, natural gas, hydroelectric, do something with all of our coal, and dilithium crystals :D

I have to always question the critics of free enterprise wind resources. If free enterprise doesn't provide wind resources, who do you suggest will do it??

Or is it that you don't believe it a part of the solution? Not trying to be a wise a-- just trying to understand your arguement :-)

We just flat out need to do it. You want to convert your car to NG it cost between $2500 and $4000 here. Im even seeing new NG Civics here.

Just in the last two days Ive seen three sets of props for wind turbines heading north on hwy 75. The wind turbines are going up. Like it or not. Pickens or not. It is happening.

Get the darn solar panels up in the SW!

The drilling is going to happen no matter what. Im seeing more and more drilling equitment being shipped. There are several companys that build riggs here. And they are busy as hell. Its going to happen. And happen in a very big way. The rig yards on the gulf coast are busy as hell. Everybody is gearing up for the second black gold rush.

If we need to build some nukes, so be it!

We have to do something and do it now. Not everbody will like it. And the wine bags are just going to have to move over or get ran over. I for one hope America shows its true metal and make of once great people. As a country we use to kick ass and take names when we deceided to do something. Now we whine and wind bag around like a bunch of school girls and accomplish nothing.

Its now time to bust a move. If we don't? We are done for.

Psyshack; Isn't that how we got into our current mess? Big wigs playing the world like a kids game. Ignoring the science, ignorring everything in fact other than their pocket books. Private enterprise has a dark side to it....it doesn't care about anything other than the dollar. The whiners are the ones who are thinking it through.

Now at some point action has to be taken, but how many times have we heard that, only to have the government push a policy which benefited a few people and ultimatly harmed many. Wind has a downside...dead birds, possible psych problem for those living close enough. Currently we consider that acceptable, but we should keep them in mind when building and not be stupid about it. PV has its down sides too. Oil/coal has a huge downside which we have discovered all too late like a junkie who just discovered drugs were bad for them. We should act, but act with caution. If we already know oil is bad, why spend another dollar on it we don't have to? Convert to cleaner fuels. If the oil industry took every dollar (was that about 50 billion last time for one company) and spent it on renewables, how quickly could oil be replaced? And the once oil, now energy, companies would have a reliable source of income for their shareholders for decades or centuries to come. But why isn't that happening..."we got ran over"

I don't like how he doesn't mention that it will cost everyone $3,000-$10,000 (depending on who you believe) to convert their vehicle to natural gas (who will actually do it for that price?). I'm all for using wind power and upgrading our grid to eventually allow huge solar arrays in the desert, but saying it will end or reliance on foreign oil does not make sense to me. It seems like there is a pink elephant in the room that everyone is ignoring.
Edit: bad math I don't think that he is thinking conversion of existing cars, but rather new ones as they come online.

I drove a natural gas Civic at work today, and put around 160 miles on it. It was an '08 Civic GX, and it took half a tank of natural gas to go that distance. It's sweet getting around without using a drop of gasoline.

Harry

When natural gas depletes, we'll have to make ANOTHER huge jump to electricity from solar/wind/biomass/geothermal (plus nuclear).

So why not just do that now and save ourselves the trouble?

Instead of going from the Titanic to the Titanic II to the lifeboat, let's just head out to the lifeboat.

It is warmer and more comfortable on the Titanic II, and allows for more orderly use of the lifeboats. Heck, if we can add T-II's lifeboats to the current ones, we might have enough to save everyone.

Natural gas can be part of the solution now. Let's see what works.

Aether Glider: ditto your comment.

Get the darn solar panels up in the SW!


True, you could blanket almost the whole state of Nevada with solar panels! And that might be almost enough power to light up the strip in Vegas!

We just flat out need to do it. You want to convert your car to NG it cost between $2500 and $4000 here. Im even seeing new NG Civics here.

Just in the last two days Ive seen three sets of props for wind turbines heading north on hwy 75. The wind turbines are going up. Like it or not. Pickens or not. It is happening.

Get the darn solar panels up in the SW!

The drilling is going to happen no matter what. Im seeing more and more drilling equitment being shipped. There are several companys that build riggs here. And they are busy as hell. Its going to happen. And happen in a very big way. The rig yards on the gulf coast are busy as hell. Everybody is gearing up for the second black gold rush.

If we need to build some nukes, so be it!

We have to do something and do it now. Not everbody will like it. And the wine bags are just going to have to move over or get ran over. I for one hope America shows its true metal and make of once great people. As a country we use to kick ass and take names when we deceided to do something. Now we whine and wind bag around like a bunch of school girls and accomplish nothing.

Its now time to bust a move. If we don't? We are done for.


I agree, it's past time we started getting our act together (Like they did with nukes in France).
We are just going to have to ignore the whiners who are worried that some private company is going to make money on the deal..


Gee, what if America needs to spent a few trillion to overhaul all it's 30 year old bridges?? How are we going to do that without paying out that money to private companies??

In other words, how can we get people to build us an infrastructure for FREE??

I'm not sure, but maybe the whiners would be happy if a big non-profit.org built all the
PV & Wind farms.. Then gave us the kilowatt hours for free??

AND, all the people working for the big non-profit.org were all unpaid volunteers!!
(Like at PBS or the Red Cross) ;)

Yeah, it sure seems like the world is full of people who want something for nothing..

True, you could blanket almost the whole state of Nevada with solar panels! And that might be almost enough power to light up the strip in Vegas!

Actually, at 15% efficiency (cells are getting there), it would take only about 42k sq miles of solar farms (204 miles on a side) in the SW to match the energy used in the US.

In comparison, there are about 48k linear miles of US interstate highways in operation....

To me, if the private sector cant quickly get everything lined up to make PV farms a reality, then perhaps our government should turn this into a critical public works project. I know government involvment traditionally does not speed things up, but it seemed to help direct our industry starting about 1941....

This probably applies to other non fossil fuel based technologies.

A couple of links:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=a-solar-grand-plan
http://expressways.wikia.com/wiki/Interstate_Highway

It would really be nice, if someday we could buy 5KW home PV systems that have
a 5 to 10 year payback (and at least a 20 year warranty).

You could sell power back to the grid all day while you were at work and then buy some back when you got home that evening.. (If you didn't have batteries) :)

I don't think this is gonna happen:
http://www.chron.com/apps/comics/showComick.mpl?date=20080815&name=Bizarro

Xringer and psyshack make a good point that now is the time for action, and for numerous reasons.

So, some ear plugs should fix the whiner problem. BTW, I think its impossible to whine and work at the same time. If true, what progress could be attributed to them? Also, I've wondered if the whining thing wasn't a manifestation of the entitlement attitude. One of the benefits of America is that you're free to work as hard and long and smart as you care to. And the salary is commensurate.

And one thing is for sure, that is, we don't need the gov't bungling something that free enterprise can do blindfolded. Free enterprise won't do a perfect job, there is no such thing on this planet, but at least it will be done and working. Hoorah for T. Boone Pickens.

And remember John Kennedy? He said an interesting thing that many people have long since forgotten. I'll paraphrase: 'Ask not what your country can do for you, but rather, what can you do for your country'.

Gotta go, got stuff to do, got dishes to put away and garbage cans to stow.

Faithful and True

National Poll: Americans Say T. Boone Pickens' Energy Independence Will Work, But Congress Will Get in the Way (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/national-poll-americans-say-t/story.aspx?guid=%7B0967C828-F4E7-46F6-B467-750D428D195C%7D&dist=hppr)

T. Boone Pickens is on the right track. We need to start looking for alternative energy sources NOW - not on the day this planet runs out of oil (and it will).

The crux of my point is just do it! We have to move off dead center. While tech. marches on and that's great!. We are still years away from usable full on elect. cars. And I will share with you straight up. I have little faith in the Volt. GM has done little right in years in basic car design. Muchless change there ways with one car. When they come out with a sparky car that goes 300 to 400 miles on a charge and charges in under 30 mins. I will buy one! And thats not today or tomorrow.

I know much of our membership hate oil and many believe we are near out. We are no where near out. I know GW worrys many of us. Hell it worry's me a bit. Is the sky falling? I don't think so. Is there a issue to deal with? YES! But the fact remains. WE NEED TO DRILL! Im all for taking burlap bags to ChinaMart and the grocery store to sack stuff up in and reuse them. But Im not paying out the ass for designer greenie weenie bags. We are always going to need oil. As a whole Im against raising tax. But we have a war to pay for and Im not against a small fuel tax. IF the idiot government does not waste it. I to worry if we drill and prices drop. America will waste at biblical levels like in the past. But that is a risk Im willing to take. I won't live my life in a iron fist politicao matter. With overt tax and spend by a near useless government.

Im all for wind and solar! Lets get it going. Get the price down! Make it happen! But I have little faith in the thinkers getting it worked out at reasonable cost much less time line. A company I work for spent seven years designing and producing a new pump line I rep. Seven -ucking years and millions of dollars. And they still blew the design. While the pumps will move a bit more water. They don't make good head psi. So they wiped out a very large replacement market. Not to mention a good % of our spec market. All the heady thinkers blew it. So how much of this useless type thought is being done in other engineering arts to get to a idiot means? This is a prime example of wasted money in spades. I personally begged the fat heads to keep the same pump curves and performance and use there new castings, bearings and shaft designs. Use what we know what works and spend a bit more time in the lab and in the field fine tuning the curves.

So lets get the best we have in solar priced right and get it working. Get the wind turbines up and spinning. If we can use ocean currents or the surf in areas to make power lets do it.

We are running out of time and spending millions making other country's rich. We are ruining our economy. We are destroying the back bone of our country, the middle class. Without a handle on energy. There will be no health care reform. No money for further research. No money for space, social programs. We will be screwed! While the wife and I can handle $10 pg gas. My kids can't. Nor can they afford a Volt or PII. They are struggling to keep gas in Rolas, Tercels and Camrys.

We are going to have to cut through the BS and get something going. And going now. The environmentalist are going to have to give a bit as are the hard headed FSP. If it comes down to the tree huggers and the pickup drivers for example. It will be a blood bath. There is no reason in the world we can't bust a move on this if the idiots just work it out and do it in a hurry.

The sleeping giant needs to pull its head out of it's a$$ and get busy now PERIOD!

I passed through thousands of square miles of completely *useless*
sun-baked land in Nevada and elsewhere, and I'm sure that's just
a tiny fraction of what's there and not being used for anything
else. Carpet *all* of it with PV and concentrated-solar boilers,
provided we can wrest enough flow of PV production from the
Germans who have bought way more clue than us about this. It
was awe-inspiring to see several serious windfarm efforts along
my trip, but I also saw plenty of other places where I was
getting buffeted all over the place by crosswinds and there
wasn't a turbine to be seen.
.
We really do need to git 'r done, but the last time this country
really ever pulled together in the way needed now was 1942.
That's why I researched the state-of-the-union addresses from
back then [conveniently available on wikipedia] for my hack job (http://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/sotu.html).
I've been trying to do my tiny part by sprinkling flyers and
advice around over many parts of the country at this point --
I must have gone through 40 of them *since* Hybridfest, just
finding people staring at the car or asking about it and being
really interested in the fact that I was bangin' around the
country at 60 MPG. I probably opened a lot of eyes.
.
_H*

I think we need to expand the use of solar and wind energy NOW. At this point, I don't care who's financing it how. It's got to be done and the current government isn't doing enough.

So, we switch cars to natural gas. The large increase in demand will send NG commodity prices through the roof. As it is now during the winter when NG consumption goes up for heating we see a spike in NG prices. So, after we switch to NG cars what will happen to NG prices, will they go up by 50%, 100% or more? Sure NG cars are relatively cheap to fuel now but will people want them if NG gets much more expensive? Will people want to pay twice as much to heat their houses? Converting the nation to any expendable resource will have similar results.

hobbit

Do you think we have any greatness left? I look back and think of my grandparents and great grandparents and Im in AW of them. To think of turn of the century America, WWI, Depression and WWII. Those folks did not mess around. They had moxy. Wrong or right. When they jumped off into something it must have been a sight to see. They had work ethics. They set goals and exceeded them.

I think our forefathers would be very upset with us at this point.

It's just another guy trying to scam the American people out of Billions of dollars.

Ever wonder why Nancy Pelosi doesn't want to drill?

Nancy-pelosi-invests-in-energy-scheme-and-water-grab-by-t-boone-pickens/ (http://dontgomovement.com/2008/08/11/nancy-pelosi-invests-in-energy-scheme-and-water-grab-by-t-boone-pickens/)

Pickens is 80 years old. He will never see profit from this venture.

Maybe I am stupid, but I think there are still some people who love this country. Pickens comes from that generation.

I truly believe he loves this country as much as he loves money.

Just my 2 cents (0.91 cents after inflation)

So, we switch cars to natural gas. The large increase in demand will send NG commodity prices through the roof. As it is now during the winter when NG consumption goes up for heating we see a spike in NG prices. So, after we switch to NG cars what will happen to NG prices, will they go up by 50%, 100% or more? Sure NG cars are relatively cheap to fuel now but will people want them if NG gets much more expensive? Will people want to pay twice as much to heat their houses? Converting the nation to any expendable resource will have similar results.

This the same fear argument used when folks start talking about using elect. to power our cars.

That fact is we have to use what is at hand while the infrastructure is built for a new way of power.

We can not cap the wells and stop drilling. Nor can we turn off the shovels and quit mining coal. We have to use that energy a bit wiser and cleaner. To shut all that down would throw the country back into the dark ages.

It is going to take years to build what we need to change over to renewable power. I think we can make great strides in the effort over the next 10 years if we knuckle down and get after it. But at the rate we are going it will be fifty years. And if its the fifty year number. We as a country are screwed.

And its going to hurt. Its going to be very hard. People are going to be in fear and complain like little kids. The energy markets will change and fluctuate.

The wife and I were looking over our energy cost last night as we were paying bills. Kind of made me feel like Al Gore. We have our NG and Elect. on averaging payment system.

Elect. $180
NG. $100
Water & Trash. $40
Gasoline & Motor Oil. $300

We can afford to pay double these numbers if need be. But why? So I need to get my ass in gear and lower them a bit more. And get ready to pay my part for rebuilding the system.

To echo Jeff (psyshack) - note the the successful people. Do they complain about the raw deal life has given them, or are they busy doing something?

There are going to be bumps in the road as there have always been, but we have to seriously find other sources for energy.

I passed through thousands of square miles of completely *useless* sun-baked land in Nevada and elsewhere...

Well, "useless" is a point of view. From a different one, most of the useless land in Nevada is within about a 20-mile radius of the Las Vegas Strip. And there's a lot of useless land in e.g. the LA Basin, Phoenix metro area, etc.

Instead of screwing up what little good land is left, why not put those solar panels on the land that's already messed up? In other words, put them on your roof. And you don't have to wait for some government bureaucracy or wealthy entrepreneur to do it for you, you can do it yourself.

Well, "useless" is a point of view. From a different one, most of the useless land in Nevada is within about a 20-mile radius of the Las Vegas Strip. And there's a lot of useless land in e.g. the LA Basin, Phoenix metro area, etc.

Instead of screwing up what little good land is left, why not put those solar panels on the land that's already messed up? In other words, put them on your roof. And you don't have to wait for some government bureaucracy or wealthy entrepreneur to do it for you, you can do it yourself.

Are these panels going to hold up to a okie hail storm? I haven't seen any to date that will. Have read claims that they will. But have never seen one. So wind turbines are a good idea here. And vast tracks of land in the SW is prime area for using the sun.

Are these panels going to hold up to a okie hail storm?

Are your wind turbines going to hold up in a tornado?

And those vast tracts of land are already being used. Why not put the panels on roofs, instead of ruining what little open land is left?

Hi All,

I agree that now is time for action. But keeping the commuter Pickup and FSP SUV's temporarily economic is ludicrous. And this is the primary impact (purpose?) of large scale NG use as a transportation fuel. And what do we sacrifice for that? Even though NG has less carbon, keeping these large vehicles economic will not result in any reduction, and probably more CO2. As oil replaces home heating applications at the end of this short wasteful burst of NG usage, CO2 usage will increase greatly.

Hi James..,

There is only so much energy in the wind. Its not like wind turbines are going to be checkerboard across the land scape. There will be a line here, and a line there.

On the other hand, solar energy panels will need to be checkerboard on large tracks of land to replace enough of coal electricity generation.

What do we get for this? We get a chance at Texas and Oklahoma not turning into a desert, and Manhattan staying above water. Seems reasonable for the loss of some scenery. I mean, we populated the Earth, now we need to take responsibilty.

Are your wind turbines going to hold up in a tornado?

And those vast tracts of land are already being used. Why not put the panels on roofs, instead of ruining what little open land is left?

The tornado hits are far less than the hail storm hits. And the paths of damage while great in a tornado hit. Are not near as wide spread as the hail.

So whats the problem with using the wide open area's of the SW for massive solar? Where it would be the most effective and safest?

So whats the problem with using the wide open area's of the SW for massive solar? Where it would be the most effective and safest?

The problem is that if you use these wide-open areas for solar, they are no longer wide-open areas. There aren't many such areas left: why ruin them?

As for putting solar where it's most effective and safest, I think that's exactly where I suggested: on roofs. You don't have to use land that's not being used, you don't have to build hundreds of miles of transmission lines (with per-mile losses), you have a distributed system so a single-point failure doesn't bring down the system, and if you need maintenance or repair, you don't have to send people on long drives out to the desert. And for those who care about such things, you have distributed ownership.

Now once you get solar cells installed on all the suitable roofs in the Southwest, you can start talking about where else to put them. But we're a long, long way from that point.

Pickens is 80 years old. He will never see profit from this venture.

Maybe I am stupid, but I think there are still some people who love this country. Pickens comes from that generation.

I truly believe he loves this country as much as he loves money.

Just my 2 cents (0.91 cents after inflation)


No sale.. Half the country is democrats that still hold a grudge against Pickens..
He gave money to the Swift Boat vets. (That torpedoed Kerry).


I'm with you. I've seen the videos and he seems very sincere. At his age, it's just
not real likely that he is trying to pull some kind of scam and run off with the money..

When you read things like this: "Pickens has given more than $700 million away to charity.",
you get a pretty good feel for the man.

People calling him a thieving con-man.?. I think that's just hate talking..

The problem is that if you use these wide-open areas for solar, they are no longer wide-open areas. There aren't many such areas left: why ruin them?

As for putting solar where it's most effective and safest, I think that's exactly where I suggested: on roofs. You don't have to use land that's not being used, you don't have to build hundreds of miles of transmission lines (with per-mile losses), you have a distributed system so a single-point failure doesn't bring down the system, and if you need maintenance or repair, you don't have to send people on long drives out to the desert. And for those who care about such things, you have distributed ownership.

Now once you get solar cells installed on all the suitable roofs in the Southwest, you can start talking about where else to put them. But we're a long, long way from that point.


I looked into the home installation cost and payback time. Depending on exactly what I wanted for wattage, it would cost me between $30,00 to $40,000 for a system with a 25 year warranty.

Unless the price of electrical power starting shooting up like gasoline did, I don't think
I would live to see break-even. (Since I'm 62 now).. :confused:


If I could install the system myself, I would save a ton of money.. Since the hardware
cost is only $10,000 to $15,000 for a 4,000 Watt system.!.

Yeah, if every famliy in America put a 4 or 5 KW system on their roofs.. We would be in hog heaven!
BUT, there is no way the hardware could be manufactured fast enough.
http://www.findsolar.com/oemestimator/?oemid=211

So why do people think PV solar systems will magically cost a lot less if you put them out in the desert? You might get a bit of discount for volume purchases, and some economies of scale in the installation, but against that you have to buy the land for the plants, run power lines to them, build structure to support the cells and housing for your work crews...

Large scale solar is cheaper, and thats what gives it the advantage over home systems.
Its cheaper for two big reasons....
1. Technology - Home is pretty much limited to PV with CPV (concentrated PV) just coming into the market. CPV has a chance of reducing cost for home systems by up to half over tradtional PV. Power companies are using PV, but they prefer heat based energy production using either mirrors focusing lights on towers or mirrors focusing power on tubes which heat oil or other substances well beyond the boiling point of water. These system also have the advantage of storage. Its possible to store the heat and use the power up to 24 hours after the energy was first captured. Ideal for those peak times that occur outside of high noon sun.
2. Infrastucture. While we talk about the cost of installing new power lines to support large scale plants, that can actually be cheaper than the electric panel needed at every home. Not to mention that the cost of installing a 100MW to multi-gigawatt system can be far below the cost of even installing the same PV all in one organized location with better reliability (more sun).

I think local CPV is really the best way to go for many reason even if the cost is higher, but thats not to say that industrial sized power doesn't have a place...it probably always will.

Oh...and many PV systems are capable of withstanding hail. Some through design, others through that magic, modern technolgy called...insurance.

No sale.. Half the country is democrats that still hold a grudge against Pickens..
He gave money to the Swift Boat vets. (That torpedoed Kerry).


I'm with you. I've seen the videos and he seems very sincere. At his age, it's just
not real likely that he is trying to pull some kind of scam and run off with the money..

When you read things like this: "Pickens has given more than $700 million away to charity.",
you get a pretty good feel for the man.

People calling him a thieving con-man.?. I think that's just hate talking..

The frustration, anger, and skepticism is understandable, but as my dad likes to say, "If you get what you want, it doesn't matter who came up with the idea." We all want clean energy and to get off oil, and Pickens has the money and the clout to make serious headway to those goals.

No one is ever going to agree with you 100%, so you have to take allies where you can get them and either overlook or otherwise deal with where you're in conflict. Pickens should be given the benefit of the doubt, but given his past as an oil man and his politics, there should be no shortage of doubt to make sure that his plan remains honest.