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VMIP gives up to $35 $Billion away with few strings attached. (http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080728/BUSINESS01/80728028/1014)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/Pickup_Trucks_on_Dealer_lot.jpgJustin Hyde - Detroit Free Press - July 28, 2008

Rows of unsold gas guzzling Dodge Rams and Durango’s with little chance of finding new owners.

GM and Ford already meet 35 mpg in Europe… Bring on the Government Bailouts :mad: -- Ed.

WASHINGTON -- Backers of a program that would lend up to $25 billion to automakers and auto parts suppliers said today they had garnered 71 U.S. House members to support their search for $3.75 billion in funding over the next couple of months.

The program, known as the Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Incentive Program, was meant to help automakers meet fuel economy standards of 35 miles per gallon by 2020. Created but not funded by Congress last year, the program would provide low-cost loans to cash-strapped automakers and their suppliers for engineering fuel-efficient vehicles or converting old plants.

The $3.75 billion would cover the government's borrowing costs for up to $25 billion in loans, along with a small reserve for defaults.

The loans would be limited to 30% of the cost of any plant or technology program… http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080728/BUSINESS01/80728028/1014

I don't have a problem with a bailout plan, per se. If Congress can bailout the mortgage industry, their problems being caused by greed, negligence, and malfeasance, then they can certainly bailout our auto industry.

However, our auto industry, in my own opinion, is a disgrace and needs a top-to-bottom overhaul. In addition, they need to cut executive managements' salaries ratiometrically to the losses they have caused shareholders, who are the real owners, starting retroactively to last year. This is serious stuff, they simply need to do far better.

Note: whatever happened to the yankee ingenuity for which America was famous?

Faithful and True.

I wondering if there is any consequence for making a bad decision anymore? I can remember a time when if a company was in a financial crisis, either they changed, or they closed. I suppose since several major industries are being helped, might as well help the auto industry as well, it's only fair if one company get's bailed out for it's mistakes, then all companies who have made a poor decision should get government aid as well.. Because that's what the government is for right? (sarcasm) They are there to bail us out when we make bad financial decisions... I.e. the US auto industry

Now, granted the government has mandated the CAFE thing, so I guess they should help fund it... I don't know. Just my 2 cents.

Why can't we just let the big 3 die? The companies that would emerge to fill the vacuum would be young hungry and more efficient. Sorry Detroit, but saving one city is not worth the garbage that has been piled on this country for the past 30 years.

I agree, I don't buy the arguments that closing plants/laying off UAW workers is the apocalypse. I understand that it's often a big hit to the local economy (I'm originally from the Flint, MI area) however necessity spawns innovation.

If the big 3 scale back, it opens the door for other automakers (after all, people in the US "need" cars). The Japanese automakers can't fill the remaining void. I think what you'll see is much smaller, more specialized (take Aptera for instance) companies rising from the dust.

bailouts are different from communist russia how?

I want to claim bankruptcy just so that the government can bail me out!! do you think it will work? I do not know what has happened but something has got to change for the better.

This bailout does not seem to be such that tho. The way i read it is that it will help the industry to atain the leverl of CAFE that was established, up to 30% of course. THis seems like it will help the big 3 to control some outstanding costs, not bail out from their debt that they themselves have invoked by making BIG MONSTER CARS & TRUCKS.

I also think that they should raise the bar to an even higher level. Like lets say 100 MPG Per car/truck/suv/engine.

Hi Ikea:

___It is a Bailout with the cover of helping the Big 2.5 meet the future 2020 CAFE' standards. Remember that CAFE' standards are not 35 mpg but more like 27 due to the "funny math" of pre 1985 EPA without any offsets.

___Think of the $Billions wasted for the PNGV and the Freedom Car program and you will understand what Bailout means for the Big 2.5. Can I have a few Billion to produce 3 cars too?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I'm counting on electric based startups like Tesla to take over the US market. If the big/ancient 3 can't keep up, they need to go away. I'd like to see congress start setting up a bailout, but of the auto workers, not the companies. These bailouts wouldn't be to pay off the union based retirement deal, but to retrain the workers for the new fields that need them. Turbines (wind/water) and electric motors could use many of these people. The new electric car makers will need them. Some may not even need to retrain...frames & bodies shouldn't change too much, and eventually these companies will need large mass production knowledge of many in the car industry.

I understand it's an aid to help the big 2.5 in R & D to increase MPG because of the government mandated CAFE, but once again - those private corporations could have funneled their thousands of dollars of profit into producing those higher mileage vehicles a decade ago, and where would they be? Same place Toyota & Honda is. I my opinion.

<RANT=on>

Note: whatever happened to the yankee ingenuity for which America was famous?Got replaced with Wall Street Greed. I blame this economy on the Buisness School Graduates of the 80's and 90's. I knew people in the Business Schools at A&M and UofH at the time and I even had a room mate that was taking business ethics at the time. The bottom line is that what they called "ethics" a priest would call "sin". It sickened me that the point of the ethics class was to teach honest people how to cheat and lie. So these people graduate and apply to become VP of the local fortune 500 company next thing you know they are all caught hand in the cookie jar.Why can't we just let the big 3 die?Amen! This whole economic policy of "soft landing" to avoid a major drop in the market has very little to do with the long-term (20-30 year) health of the US economy. The goal is to keep the voters above water till the election. No political party wants the "Next Great Depression" on their watch. It's just fine if they can pin it on the new guy... I think that all these politicians screaming that the free market and open enterprise as the answer to everything should practice a little of what they preach.

Yes, some people will loose their jobs, some will loose their house, but who's idea was it to take out a loan for a house they couldn't afford, or worse taking it on an ARM? My heart goes out to the Union workers, but they have painted themselves into a corner with poor planning and a parasitic relationship with the big 3. Eventually the host will die, and that is starting to begin now. Investing capitol in equity and annuity funds instead of negotiating long term pensions would have saved both the Union retirees and Detroit.

I've made lots of bad decisions, but each one came down on me like a hammer. Never got a gov't bail out and I learned to fix my decision making process real quickly!

</RANT>

11011011

I hate that they claim closing a plant which results in a loss of 2,000 jobs will hurt the US economy. we have 330 Million people!!!! it isn't even a percent of a percent of people in this country.

If you want a free market economy, things like this will happen. It's how the economy purges itself of unnecessary baggage. But, if the gov't is going to fund them, they should control how the money gets used, or consider it an interest free loan. Even socialist/commlunist regimes dont' just hand a business money and let them do what they want with it, they mandate its use.

I'm voting for a third party candidate because I'm sick of gov't bail-outs.

I understand it's an aid to help the big 2.5 in R & D to increase MPG...

But why would the Big however-many need to do any R&D? All the work needed to go well beyond 35 mpg (fleet average) has already been done, by Honda, Toyota, Aptera, Tesla... even UPS (their hydraulic hybrid delivery van), fer cryin' out loud.

Why not invest that money in the startups, so they can buy & refurbish former Big 3 factories, and use them to produce efficient cars, instead of giving to the firms who have consistently failed - no, not failed, because that implies that they might have made an honest attempt - refused to build good cars.

On their track record, most of any money they might get from the government would only be used on advertising, to try to keep Americans under the "but I need a big car" brainwashing.

Hi Ikea:

___It is a Bailout with the cover of helping the Big 2.5 meet the future 2020 CAFE' standards. Remember that CAFE' standards are not 35 mpg but more like 27 due to the "funny math" of pre 1985 EPA without any offsets.

___Think of the $Billions wasted for the PNGV and the Freedom Car program and you will understand what Bailout means for the Big 2.5. Can I have a few Billion to produce 3 cars too?

___Good Luck

___Wayne


That's probably because EPA is crediting E85 flexfuel vehicles towards the new mileage figures. Consumer Reports stated, "The FFV surge is being motivated by generous fuel-economy credits that auto-makers get for every FFV they build, even if it never runs on E85. This allows them to pump out more gas-guzzling large SUVs and pickups, which is resulting in the consumption of many times more gallons of gasoline than E85 now replaces."

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/news/2006/ethanol-10-06/overview/1006_ethanol_ov1_1.htm

Welcome to fascist America. Where the profit is private and individual, and loss is public and social.

We need some real laissez-faire republicans. I've had about all I can take of these neocon republicans that spend up the national debt by bailing out their golfing buddies while the next generation is left to clean up the mess after the neocons are all gone.

The tax us to death in the middle of a recession liberals aren't any better.

Both sides are too entrenched with their golfing buddies or protest partners to pull us out of this fascist death sprial we're in.

Welcome to fascist America...Stick around a while... I've been here in facist America for years... didn't notice the change. ;) :flag:

11011011

Welcome to fascist America. Where the profit is private and individual, and loss is public and social.

We need some real laissez-faire republicans. I've had about all I can take of these neocon republicans that spend up the national debt by bailing out their golfing buddies while the next generation is left to clean up the mess after the neocons are all gone.

The tax us to death in the middle of a recession liberals aren't any better.

Both sides are too entrenched with their golfing buddies or protest partners to pull us out of this fascist death sprial we're in.I'd say the two major parties are polarized.

Until lately, I made the mistake of going too lightly enjoying the 125-150mpg iFCD readout on my Insight, only to have to see it nose dive 25-40mpg plus Assist up a hill. :( What I've been doing is keeping it in the 100mpg range more often so I have the momentium for hills...back to politics...just like I had the instant mpg swings and paid - we are paying for political swings from arch-conservative to arch-liberal.

Detroit is endangered because they were too irresponsible when times were good - did not plan for after the boom of the 90s...now they want a bailout. Yes, this is hindsight, but in the early 90's we should have increased the CAFE, etc so we would not be set up for this fall experienced this year in gas guzzlers.