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Mr. Lutz has also suggested a more “realistic price” for the Volt would be about $48,000. (http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/14/1-volt-or-2-priuses/)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/508/2010_Prius_3.jpgJerry Garrett - NY Times - July 14, 2008

The Volt's competiton... Rendition of the next gen Toyota Prius-III.

Adding insult to injury… $30,000 revolutionary new vehicle at $40,000 + sounds like a very expensive boat anchor and cannot save GM from itself :( -- Ed.

Let’s say that in 2010 you have $40,000-$50,000 to spend on a new hybrid car. Would you rather buy one Chevrolet Volt, or for about the same money, two Toyota Priuses?

That’s shaping up to be the value proposition, or close to it, for the Volt, when it is projected to arrive in late 2010.

General Motors calls the Volt an “extended range electric vehicle,” able to run 40 miles on its lithium-ion batteries alone before needing a recharge. Because the Volt will be equipped with a small gasoline engine to run an onboard charging system (the engine is connected only to a generator, not the wheels), by most definitions it is a hybrid.

The good news for Volt fans — and there are a lot of them — is that Rick Wagoner, chairman and chief executive of General Motors, announced on June 3 that the Volt has a green light for production. The bad news is that four weeks later, G.M.’s vice chairman, Bob Lutz, told a Seattle newspaper the Volt could cost “about $40,000.” And that even at that price G.M. would lose money on it — just what G.M. needs, more things to lose money on… http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/14/1-volt-or-2-priuses/

I'd rather have two Priuses (Priui?). :)

I'd rather have two Priuses (Priui?). :)

Ditto

I wonder if anyone has made a graph of date vs. projected Volt prices. I remember from early literature that it would be about $20k (or at least from early discussion which was maybe 1.5 to 2 years ago), and that number has grown steadily to the $48k we see today.

Seriously, what the f***, GM?

PDK wrote:

I wonder if anyone has made a graph of date vs. projected Volt prices. I remember from early literature that it would be about $20k (or at least from early discussion which was maybe 1.5 to 2 years ago), and that number has grown steadily to the $48k we see today.

At this rate the "Dolt" will be $100k by the time it reaches the showroom.

:ccry:


WHY?!?!?!

Looks like the Volt is doomed to failure even before it ever reaches the dealer's showrooms. Another Edsel?

Anyway, from everything I've read, the Prius is still the way to go.

I wonder if anyone has made a graph of date vs. projected Volt prices. I remember from early literature that it would be about $20k (or at least from early discussion which was maybe 1.5 to 2 years ago), and that number has grown steadily to the $48k we see today.

Seriously, what the f***, GM?

My guess is the Random Volt Retail Price Generator. Here's the equation -
MSRP = (gas price per gallon) x 10,000
...At least it seems to be a fairly close correlation. :D

For that price I'm keeping my Prius, getting a Th!nk, and pocketing a whole bunch of money. Extended range + EV + something left over to pay for the juice. Actually, that would probably buy a half decent PV array.

Just what we need. Another Detroit built answer to a non-existent problem. If you have $40 or $50 grand to toss around for a vehicle, you are probably not too worried about the cost of gasoline.

Detroit needs to rethink it's original premise...cheap and efficient transportation for the masses.

It's quite a disappointment. :( But as I've said before it's a long way before November 2010 and a lot can happen. I commend GM's candor regarding its public statements on the Volt. I don't doubt that $48,000.00 is what GM will have to sell the car for to make a profit. Those LiON batteries aren't cheap and the global supply of lithium ore to build the cars' batteries is not known but the smart money says that lithium is in limited supply.

My main concern is that GM has stated that they will build a few thousand in 2010 and 10,000 in 2011 and 60,000 in 2012. 10,000 cars, from what I've heard from the Volt enthusiasts, amounts to a total of 3 cars for each GM showroom across the country. More pressure will be needed to convince GM to build more cars. ie: No Plug No Deal! But the number may reflect supply problems for the batteries.

Then there is the issue of efficiency. GM has been hinting that the gas efficiency will not be as high as stated. There's still much work to be done on the Volt before release. Still alot to watch as this develops before 2010.

I really think that by the time the Volt comes out, Toyota will come out with a plug in prius that can match or beat the Volt's range/mpg, while doing it half the price

I wonder if anyone has made a graph of date vs. projected Volt prices. I remember from early literature that it would be about $20k (or at least from early discussion which was maybe 1.5 to 2 years ago), and that number has grown steadily to the $48k we see today.

Seriously, what the f***, GM?

Sounds like the Holden GTO. When they were showing it as a prototype at the car shows it was supposedly going to be priced at $25K pretty optioned out. Well when the car hit the show rooms it was at least $33K. 32% increase over what it was suppose to be priced at
and what it came in at are two very different amounts.
Based on GM's history if they are saying the Volt is going to be $48K it will probably come in at $65K by the time it hits the showrooms in 2010-2011. I really don't think there is much of a market for a Hybrid Cadillac Volt once it goes over $35K.

I suspect -hope -that this $40000 number is just a way to get congress to allow a $7000 TC .GM will be able to soak folks for $33000 1.3 Prius , but get to pocket an extra $7000 on the 1st 50,000 or so.

With $4 gas folks will pay $33,000 but they sure won't pay $40,000 for a small car.

Like another poster said- if you can pay $40,000 ,you aren't worried about $4 gas.

If they think folks will actually pay $40,000 out of their own pocket ,then they are really,really, dumb out of touch smfs.

Charlie

As I've been telling people, if GM prices the Volt at $45K, and a plug-in Prius (proven platform) is available for $32K, they are dead in the water. Likewise, if Tesla's Whitestar sedan comes out at around $50K and has an AER of 100+mi with seating for 5 in luxury, are people really going to want to buy the smaller Volt?

Bah.

Sheer stupidity if you ask me. Just sell the thing at a loss, take over the market by expanding the platform to most models in the lineup, and get out of this hole by being smart with the correct platform for the job. Instant profit greed will kill this company. :(

Wasn't GM the biggest critic of hybrids, saying that the price premium was so high that it made hybrids irrational?

So what do they do, make a hybrid that costs around double a Prius.

Harry

Neither: I'll take one hybrid Aptera, please :-)

How about 4 smart for 2?

This Volt fiasco kinda makes me wonder..

What if Chevy made an exact copy of a 2008 Prius.. Would they have to sell it for $39,759.00 in order to make a profit?? :confused:

Neither: I'll take one hybrid Aptera, please :-)

Actually, if I could be convinced it would handle the snow and ice up here... ME TOO!!! :D

Hmmm... Given the choice of a Prius at $26k and a volt for $48k, I think I'd take a Prius every time. they have a 0.003% battery pack failure rate. That's a heck of a lot better than anything using BAS.

I'd take the Volt. I know it sounds odd, but I would.

From an enviromental standpoint, if the Volt is built here it is much more "green." No shipping, and higher enviro standards.

By the looks of it we will be able to buy a Tesla roadster before a volt. I should say afford to buy a Tesla before a Chevy, go figure,lol. I hope all GM's management make alot of money before they fold up, hate to see the CEO and the rest of management suffer.

That's precisely why GM stock is under ten bucks a share. They just don't get it.

Then there's the issue of quality control....

Excel,

There is no question! I would rather buy 2 Prius's than one of any GM product for 10 times the cost!

I can't believe that GM has the gall to talk about "hybrids" or "electric" cars. All they have to do is put the EV1 back into production. I am stunned that they are talking about a "new" electric car that gets 40mi / charge. 10 years ago... yes over TEN years ago GM was leasing an electric car (a real one) that was gettting 160mi / charge!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

Think about how technology has changed in the past decade! Had GM put the environment ahead of their pocket books they would own 80% of the domestic auto market and may have put Ford and Chrysler out of business by now. Ten years of technological development would likely see cars travelling 400-500 miles on a single charge and cahrging times of less than an hour with a standard home receptacle.

... and GM wonders why I refuse to purchase anything they make! When my children can breath cleaner air due to the insight of auto makers I will support them with everything I have!

Shayne

GM officials claimed that they stood no chance of ever making a profit on the EV1 itself.[citation needed] So instead of keeping the cars and allowing the currently built cars to be sold the company elected to shred all of these cars after numerous promises to reuse the cars

..disgusting...

several Northeastern states moved to pass ZEV laws similar to those adopted in California.[citation needed] General Motors, along with many other prospective EV manufacturers, opposed this movement[citation needed] despite the likelihood that such legislation would have vastly increased the market for the vehicle.

..sickening...

The end came when GM decided it was cheaper to sue the State of California to roll back clean vehicle regulations than it was to build electric vehicles.

Where are the morals??

I don't see the problem with the price that Lutz is saying the Volt should sell for. Toyota went with the Prius selling it for a loss... so, considering it is a new direction for a major auto manufacturer, I can fully understand GM having to sell the Volt for a loss, initially. Has anyone priced a Prius lately?? The dealerships are posting them on Autotrader for over $33K!! the majority are a couple of years old with over 20,000 miles!! Who are buying these vehicles I have no clue but they haven't done their math. Honestly, the majority of people can't afford a hybrid in the first place. It is more of a status symbol than anything else. It is not like those who are replacing their old cars with hybrids are really going gree. Their old cars are still going to be out there on the road but just driven by someone else now. It is all about perception and perception sells.... so will the Volt. :bananalama:

By the looks of it we will be able to buy a Tesla roadster before a volt.

On the other hand, no one seems to be whining about the Tesla being priced around $100K - if there are complaints, they're more of the "gee I wish I could afford that" than they are about Tesla's pricing decisions.

Or to take an example a bit closer to home, GM's MSRP for the H2 Hummer is $57K, but apparently no one thinks that's out of line. The Volt price is still well under that, yet people are complaining it's going to be too expensive. How come?

Remember, it's not about saving money, it's about saving gas.

On the other hand, no one seems to be whining about the Tesla being priced around $100K - if there are complaints, they're more of the "gee I wish I could afford that" than they are about Tesla's pricing decisions.

Or to take an example a bit closer to home, GM's MSRP for the H2 Hummer is $57K, but apparently no one thinks that's out of line. The Volt price is still well under that, yet people are complaining it's going to be too expensive. How come?

Remember, it's not about saving money, it's about saving gas.

I definitely understand your point of view, but the volt would be in a different class than the hummer or tesla. Everyone is expecting GM to come up with a compact car that rivals the japanese hybrids.

People don't by hummers to save money, or a tesla for that matter. People are looking for something that will hit their wallet softly. The volt is like wearing your nice summer clothes in winter, sure it makes you look good, but also ridiculous as far as purpose is concerned.

The volt is killing itself before its birth.

Excel,

There is no question! I would rather buy 2 Prius's than one of any GM product for 10 times the cost!

I can't believe that GM has the gall to talk about "hybrids" or "electric" cars. All they have to do is put the EV1 back into production. I am stunned that they are talking about a "new" electric car that gets 40mi / charge. 10 years ago... yes over TEN years ago GM was leasing an electric car (a real one) that was gettting 160mi / charge!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

Think about how technology has changed in the past decade! Had GM put the environment ahead of their pocket books they would own 80% of the domestic auto market and may have put Ford and Chrysler out of business by now. Ten years of technological development would likely see cars travelling 400-500 miles on a single charge and cahrging times of less than an hour with a standard home receptacle.

... and GM wonders why I refuse to purchase anything they make! When my children can breath cleaner air due to the insight of auto makers I will support them with everything I have!

Shayne


If I remember correctly, GM said the cost per EV1 was well over $100K back when they were producing them. They spent a lot of money on R&D, advertising, etc. all because the EPA demanded that 5% of a manufacturers production be emissions free vehicles. GM complied with the EPA's demand while all of the other auto manufacturers sat by. They put a lot of money into it only to have the EPA decide that it was an impossible to meet demand (Don't know how they came to this... GM did it). I gurantee Toyota was on the lobby list to have this requirement removed by the EPA. So, now you are complaining that a company who is in financial crisis decided to remove and destroy all of its electric vehicles because they decided to sue the EPA? I don't blame them for doing what they have done. They have been in a financial crisis for a while now regardless of what the factors are. At least they are bringing the elctric car back BUT most importantly they are a major player in commercial electric and hybrid vehicles were the impact is greater (buses etc). AND who else has a full size and capable hybrid SUV that can pull a boat?

BTW, electricity has been around for a while and the technology is about the same. 10 years of R&D would put us in the same spot we are now. It is all about the battery and not much else. Its not that GM put their pocket books ahead of everything else.... They don't tell us what to buy. The consumers demanded big SUV's so GM built them. Consumers now want electric cars so guess what? Blame should be placed were blame is due. It is like health care... most American families dont have it because they dont want to spend money on it yet they point fingers. The same could be said for the EV1. Good idea but most Americans didn't want to spend the money on it when they found out how much it truely costs. Simple as that.

The end came when GM decided it was cheaper to sue the State of California to roll back clean vehicle regulations than it was to build electric vehicles.

'Nuff said.

Hi Fire...,

Well, electicity may be the same, but four quadrant motor control, computers that implement it and the electrical machines (motors) are a world of difference since even the EV1 was around. There have been dramatic improvements in these things.

The EV1 cost 100K because they only made a few thousand. If they made 1 million, like Toyota has with the Prius, the cost would have been allot less.

Oh, it was not the EPA, but the CARB (California Air Resources Board) that did the things of which you speak.

'Nuff said.

exactly!

As a Wiccan, it's nice to see GM being on the receiving end of the Threefold Law. Their greed and laziness during the past 15 years has been appalling. Between the EV1 crunch, the clean air lawsuits, and the anti-hybrid trash talk the've been spewing (until 6 months ago), GM has accumilated about 45 years worth of negative karma.

I'd rather have 5 Yaris. One for each working day. Heck, they might even throw in a 6th one for the weekend.

Hybrid electric cars are becoming like last years SUVs. Hopefully Honda will put an end to this.

AND who else has a full size and capable hybrid SUV that can pull a boat?

well..from what I heard, no one is taking out their boat till prices fall :)

Hybrid boat pulling SUV....20-22mpg without the boat


scroll to post #9:
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13164&highlight=cummins+diesel

Ram that pulls 7000lb trailer:
24.2mpg with just a bit of hypermiling from a newbie....

Hybrid is just a marketing excuse...on the tahoe's part.

Like another poster said- if you can pay $40,000 ,you aren't worried about $4 gas.

I don't know about that...there are an awful lot of 40/60k SUV/trucks on the used market all of a sudden. We often buy at our limits, and when we do, we risk that suddenly our payment may exceed our limits as things change.

Does anyone remember how the Prius was viewed by the general public the first year it was introduced? Was it considered a milestone at that time or was is just "overpriced" compared to cars of similar size & performance? I can't remember.

Just what we need. Another Detroit built answer to a non-existent problem. If you have $40 or $50 grand to toss around for a vehicle, you are probably not too worried about the cost of gasoline.

Detroit needs to rethink it's original premise...cheap and efficient transportation for the masses.

exactly. the market is crying out for a $25K EV with a 50-100 mile range.

Revive the EV1 you GM morons.

People don't by hummers to save money, or a tesla for that matter.

No, they don't, but buying any new car is not a money-saving proposition. People who are interested in just saving money would buy a late 80s Civic or something similar.

People don't usually buy the Prius, or other new hybrids, in order to save money. I'll allow that a few might have been panicked into buying by this latest gas price rise, thinking they'd save money, but it wasn't a sensible decision. They do it to save gas, or to have new technology, knowing that doing so will cost them something extra. So having the Volt's latest technology is going to cost more: if it's good, so what?

On the other hand, no one seems to be whining about the Tesla being priced around $100K - if there are complaints, they're more of the "gee I wish I could afford that" than they are about Tesla's pricing decisions.

Or to take an example a bit closer to home, GM's MSRP for the H2 Hummer is $57K, but apparently no one thinks that's out of line. The Volt price is still well under that, yet people are complaining it's going to be too expensive. How come?

Remember, it's not about saving money, it's about saving gas.

The Tesla was always "priced" around $100k, it's from a startup without any real foothold in the market, and it's marketed as a super-luxury car.

On the other hand, the Volt pricing was initially projected around $20k and has since more than doubled, it's from GM, an established company with substantial market share, a large R&D budget, and recent experience with EVs, and the volt was initially marketed as a car for the masses.

That's the difference, or rather the differences. To me, it's the constant changes in price that have me frustrated more than anything else. Basically, Tesla seemed to be up front and honest, while GM keeps making mealy-mouthed adjustments. It's a lot easier to believe someone who isn't constantly changing their story.

exactly. the market is crying out for a $25K EV with a 50-100 mile range.

Revive the EV1 you GM morons.

$15k with even 20 miles on a plug-in capability would work wonders. Seriously. Drop an enlarged hybrid drive into a Chevy Malibu. Actually that's be $25k but still, large four-door family sedan which can handle 90% of commutes with no gas at all.

And then bring back the EV1 for a commuter for those who don't need five seats.

Why do I have the feeling that US car makers are going to price the new high fe cars out of my range?

Is paying that premium price(gouging) for a well designed car going to add up
to being the same thing as paying $15 a gallon for gas?

Dang! I'm getting 50 MPG with my $45,000 car..?.

Yup. Isn't compensation great? :p

Tesla seemed to be up front and honest, while GM keeps making mealy-mouthed adjustments.

It makes you wonder what GM was thinking. Did they really think they could do it at that price, were they expecting to take a loss at first, or was this just a way to keep GM fans from buying something else with the expection they could get this thing soon & cheap?

The one thing we may be forgetting about the Volt is performance. It may well end up being a poor man's Tesla, and could do well in the 40/50k range. But if Tesla manages their 60k coupe by 2012, then a 50k Volt will need to start falling towards a 35/40k PHEV pretty quick.