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Has anyone here heard of or had any experience with hydrogen supplement fuel system? Basically how they work is there is a water reseviour that feeds into a gas generator that breaks the water down into hydrogen and oxygen via electrolysis. The gasses are then drawn into the engine's intake manifold and the small amounts of hydrogen and oxygen causes the gaasoline to burn much more efficiently. I've heard claims that these systems can increase a cars mileage from 50 to 100 percent. Does anyone have any experience with these systems and do they work?

Mark

Now see here...

We've already talked about this before (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9983&highlight=water+fuel)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9983

Bogus. "Water fuel" systems are thermodynamically impossible if you run them off the car's power.

If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is.

Water is nothing more than burned hydrogen. When that hydrogen was burned to form water, a lot of energy was released. The idea that water can be turned back into hydrogen without giving every bit of that energy back is just a preposterous as the idea that you can build a highway that is downhill in both directions.

ble; i agree if you are strictly looking at electrolysis/hydrogen combustion alone

but i think there may be more to it; use of hydrogen aparently allows a leaner mix and may add efficiency to the petrol combustion; these efficiency increases may give you an overall efficiency increase

i plan to make one of these systems this summer and will post results here

Bogus. "Water fuel" systems are thermodynamically impossible if you run them off the car's power.

If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is.

Right.

Unless .... you can utilize the extra power available to an alternator-shaft during decelerations (at those times the engine is is mainly pumping air anyways).

So far then, the thought remains open ... provided there is a way to "run them" ( the "Water Fuel systems" ) off "the car's power" when feathering the gas on downhills or approaching stops, ... electricity making potential that is going to waste anyway when there is lots of potential energy that's not being as efficiently used.

This device would need its own switching system to engage it's small battery to charge from the alternator when the engine is not at high torque for acceleration. An added option could be solar-assist.

ble; i agree if you are strictly looking at electrolysis/hydrogen combustion alone

but i think there may be more to it; use of hydrogen aparently allows a leaner mix and may add efficiency to the petrol combustion; these efficiency increases may give you an overall efficiency increase

i plan to make one of these systems this summer and will post results here
This has been my position on H2 systems. Of course it will cost some energy to produce the H2 but there can be an increase in the efficiency of the fuel being used because of it. I think of it the same as spending a 10-20 cents of electricity to run a block heater so I can save $.50 or more of gasoline; an overall net increase. I'm not saying that it will cause more of the fuel to burn since modern engines are ~98% fuel efficient already(raw fuel in vs. raw fuel out) but the H2 has the ability to help the fuel burn faster. This would mean a decrease in the time that the piston is still on the upstroke after the plug fires. Fuel burns and doesn't explode so to give it the time it needs to completely burn, the plug needs to fire early causing the engine to actually work against itself for 15-30 degrees or more of rotation. With all that being said, many of the H2 systems out there are not worth your time because they are either cheaply built and/or highly inefficient.

Hi All,

I read somewhere that the engine timing map and compression ratio has to be completely re-engineered to achieve the performance / fuel economy improvement. A large engine technology company has done this, and shown something like a 15 % improvement. There was a link off to an engine technology expert's site, and he said they had published SAE articles about it.

Its not something a shade tree mechanics is going to able to achieve. But a professional garage mechanic with a dyno, and tools to adjust engine computers, and modified heads could probably effect some improvement. And a full-up engine lab can get that 15 %.

Bogus. "Water fuel" systems are thermodynamically impossible if you run them off the car's power.

If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is.

Yes, ... that's just it.

Only ..... the 3 foot solar panels under my front/rear windows are idle quite often. Is that power directable during their offtimes with a switching system ? What about when those prius batteries get full on a downhill ?

( For example: A hybrid's braking electriciy can be switched to making hydrogen instead of heating up the rotors via brakepads when its big battery is filled up. A pre-intake chamber where the gaseous hydrogen can accumulate during the brief FAS in your average FASing period may not need to be as large an area as first imagined .... in my limited understanding)

it may have already been said, but the mythbusters used a system similar to the one described and got less gph than running without. the system just didnt produce enough hydrogen to make a diferance.

One test by mythbusters doesn't prove or disprove anything, the same goes for any single limited successful test using one of these hydrogen systems.

There are many people that have had short-term positive mpg gains using these systems and many that have had no success, and yes we all know that you can't get more energy out than you put in. Obviously, there is more to it than that. It's an old technology that can be applied in many different ways and the results vary with the type of car, there are too many variables.

What is really lacking is proven science and understanding behind its successful application and long term testing. I was planning to install one of these systems myself, but I am having second thoughts simply because I'm concerned about long term effects to the engine (for example, metal embrittlement). If I had a junker mobile available, it would be different.

I'm willing to bet that more sophisticated, engineered, and tested products will become available soon. This already may be the case with the hydrorunner product mentioned in another post, but their pricetag is way way way too high.

My sisters boyfriend I have heard is using some kind of hydrogen system, his dad made, with his car and is reporting good results. Next time I speak to him I will find out more and post.