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Gasoline expenses are rivaling what families spend on food and housing. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/09/business/09gas.html?_r=3&th&emc=th&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/1982_Chevrolet_Pickup_Truck.jpgClifford Krauss - NY Times - June 9, 2008

The ubiquitous Chevrolet P/U was an affordable work truck for the working poor until fuel costs exploded.

The pulse of America lyes within the working poor and although I see no relief in sight, simply knowing about their plight can hopefully help reduce our own gluttonous ways sooner rather than later? -- Ed.

TCHULA, Miss. -- Gasoline prices reached a national average of $4 a gallon for the first time over the weekend, adding more strain to motorists across the country.

But the pain is not being felt uniformly. Across broad swaths of the South, Southwest and the upper Great Plains, the combination of low incomes, high gas prices and heavy dependence on pickup trucks and vans is putting an even tighter squeeze on family budgets.

Here in the Mississippi Delta, some farm workers are borrowing money from their bosses so they can fill their tanks and get to work. Some are switching jobs for shorter commutes.

People are giving up meat so they can buy fuel. Gasoline theft is rising. And drivers are running out of gas more often, leaving their cars by the side of the road until they can scrape together gas money.

The disparity between rural America and the rest of the country is a matter of simple home economics. Nationwide, Americans are now spending about 4 percent of their take-home income on gasoline. By contrast, in some counties in the Mississippi Delta, that figure has surpassed 13 percent… http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/09/business/09gas.html?_r=3&th&emc=th&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Thanks for the find Bruce!

Check out this map of the 48 states (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/06/09/business/20080609_GAS_GRAPHIC.html#) illustrating percentage of income Americans pay at the pump... Ranges from 2% just outside NYC to 16% in lower Alabama or "LA".

New York state is shown in one uniform color, which is misleading. There are plenty of rural areas in New York where incomes aren't especially high, and people live 15 or 20 miles from anything. Northern Maine is emphasized, but no one lives there.

Harry

I live in the 8-10% area of Tennessee. Most of the BIG 3 dealerships around here carry 75% trucks. Bet they aren't moving many.

I guess the only thing saving some people is everyone has a Harley Davidson. I've seen more motorcycles on the road in the past month than i can ever remember.

I was at Walmart the other day loading groceries and some guy tried to buy my prius off of me. I think i'm going to start parking it in a safe place at night from now on.

Check out this map of the 48 states (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/06/09/business/20080609_GAS_GRAPHIC.html#) illustrating percentage of income Americans pay at the pump... Ranges from 2% just outside NYC to 16% in lower Alabama or "LA".

The dependence of the southeast and west on car transportation, and the lack thereof on the urban coasts, explains why you see so many FE cars scooting around Birmingham, and so many pickups near Manhattan. ;)

This is a good example of why markets are not always rational. That's because "markets" are "people" who make make decisions that include non-economic motivations.

Ok I'm going to get flamed for this but I'm calling most of these sob stories total media BS.
Gas has gone up $1 a gallon over last year?
So you have a truck that gets 13 mpg and work is 40 miles round trip what has the cost gone up over last year? Last year he spent $50 a week on gas. This year gas is costing him $65.50 He is going broke spending 15.50 more a week on gas.? :confused:

I know I could cut out $15 a week in discretionary income if I had to. I bet everyone on this board could cut $60 from their monthly budgets if they had to.

Now if the story was about the farmers and how the cost of diesel was killing them, then I see a story on how these fuel cost are really putting a hurt to them.

While I'm not going to flame, neither am I going to be dismissive of the story. The big picture: gas prices are going up, food prices going up, home values going down, more foreclosures, more unemployment, more debt. Lots of people overextended and all of this is sending people over the edge.

Of course, it's take too long for millions to say "ouch" and realize driving gas guzzlers is often asking for a second car payment.

Ok I'm going to get flamed for this but I'm calling most of these sob stories total media BS.
Gas has gone up $1 a gallon over last year?
So you have a truck that gets 13 mpg and work is 40 miles round trip what has the cost gone up over last year? Last year he spent $50 a week on gas. This year gas is costing him $65.50 He is going broke spending 15.50 more a week on gas.? :confused:

I know I could cut out $15 a week in discretionary income if I had to. I bet everyone on this board could cut $60 from their monthly budgets if they had to.

Now if the story was about the farmers and how the cost of diesel was killing them, then I see a story on how these fuel cost are really putting a hurt to them.

I think you have to look at it from a slightly broader perspective. For someone driving 12000-15000 miles per year (typical) in a 13 MPG vehicle, a $1 increase in the price of gas would cost them about $1000/year more. It's manageable for many (it's only about 3% of my take-home pay), but it's also $1000 that could be put elsewhere, and it's $1000 extra to an already high gas bill (for a total of about ~$4000/year in this example, >10% of my take-home pay which is certainly non-trivial). Your points are certainly valid, and I think that your typical "gas is too high" sob story would be much more palatable to the likes of us if the average US economy was more than 22 MPG, but a lot of people are hit fairly hard by this.

Of course, and I'm going to sound quite smug here, I only stand to spend about $250 more per year, driving at about 55 MPG, for each dollar per gallon gas goes up.

People are really hurting from the high cost of gas - those making 10 - 12 bucks an hour who drive old gas guzzlers and can't live close to work for good reasons.

Subtract taxes, basic food and housing from a $12 hour job and a few bucks a weel extra in gas does make a huge difference in one lifestyle.

We can empathize with these poor unfortunates - but also realize that having the gubbnement step in a try and keep gasoline prices low is only making matters worse

We can empathize with these poor unfortunates - but also realize that having the gubbnement step in a try and keep gasoline prices low is only making matters worse

If our government had been on the ball, instead of on the take, it would have imposed meaningful mileage standards on car makers many years ago, discouraging the existence of gas-hogs, and making fuel-efficient cars available and plentiful. Instead, we have the situation now where fuel-efficient cars are the exception rather than the rule. And rural Americans are the ones getting hammered for it.

Harry

If our government had been on the ball, instead of on the take, it would have imposed meaningful mileage standards on car makers many years ago, discouraging the existence of gas-hogs, and making fuel-efficient cars available and plentiful. Instead, we have the situation now where fuel-efficient cars are the exception rather than the rule. And rural Americans are the ones getting hammered for it.

Harry
The govt should never impose anything like that. Let the market like its doing now make people change. Why would the govt ever get involved in the carmakers mileage standards?

Another couple dollars at the pump and you will see a large number of people switch to FE vehicles. If people want to and can afford $6 gas have at it, but if not they will bitch and then get something they can afford to drive.

Why would the govt ever get involved in the carmakers mileage standards?



For the same reason they are involved in safety standards: for the benefit of the consumer. Ralph Nader may not have ever had a home life, but he did help get us crash-worthy cars with air bags, crumple zones, etc. Before him, cars had tiny tail lights, no turn signals, no seat belts, steering columns that would spear drivers, and cars that spewed noxious emissions and leaked oil onto our roads.

The government is involved in mileage standards with the latest CAFE standards. They are just a couple decades late.

There are other reasons for the government to be involved in mileage standards. For one, if we had mileage standards in place 20 years ago, do you really think we would be spending $$$$'s fighting in Iraq right now? If everyone drove a fuel-efficient car, we could give the Middle East the single-finger salute, and be done with them. We wouldn't need their oil, and wouldn't be sending them all our money.

The treasure we spend on gasoline goes to hostile regimes. The AK's being aimed at American troops are paid for with petro-dollars, as are the IED's and the terror groups around the world.

When a fat-assed American climbs into his fsp Tahoe to drive to the mall, there is a lot more going on than just that person wasting gas. Our country is being impacted in a very negative way by our country's addiction to foreign oil. And if the typical American could give a rat's ass about all that, then it's up to the government to do what the typical American won't do: force Americans to drive fuel efficient cars for the common good.

Harry

For one, if we had mileage standards in place 20 years ago, do you really think we would be spending $$$$'s fighting in Iraq right now?Harry

Wasn't aware that was the reason we are in Iraq.....

Govt should have nothing to do with fuel standards for cars that auto companies create. Auto companies should be smart enough to know that they should be making FE cars.

If a "fat ass american" as you said, can afford a Tahoe and want one they should get it. Americans have a very interesting history when forced to do anything they don't want by the govt.

The govt isn't the answer to everyones problems. The people are.

Sorry, but people don't get to do anything they like. That's why there are laws, for the common good, and prisons for those who make selfish choices, like doing armed robberies.

The fuel situation in American today is a national crisis. Why is it your car companies have allowed this to happen? Freedom is nothing without responsibility. It is irresponsible and harmful to have a nation driving around in fuel-sucking-pigs, draining the world's oil reserves, draining our citizens' wallets, funding our enemies, and contributing to global warming.

Your solution is to do anything you like and then attempt to do something only when it's too late, when we are just about out of oil.

How about we think long-term for a change, and conserve our resources. That's what a good conservative should be doing.

Harry

Wasn't aware that was the reason we are in Iraq.....




Okay, explain to us why we are in Iraq.

Harry

Can you say World Wide terrorism. Since that needless war was started terrorist incidents are down over 30%. I guess freeing fifty million people from repressive dictatorships is also nothing. Obviously we didn't go to Iraq for oil because if we did why are we paying $4.25 a gallon?

The first Taliban prisoners at Gitmo told our interrogator's the couldn't understand what happened. They though GW was just like Bill and would just send over a few cruise missiles and it would be over. Then they would go right back to attacking our interests at will.

Well the terrorists didn't read history. Many in the Japanese Government back in the summer of 1941 thought the U.S. wouldn't retaliate after such a devastating attack.

They came to that conclusion due to the anti-war sediment through out the U.S. media at the time.


Finally I'll let you ponder this one.
Katrina is heading for New Orleans. For three to four days before they were telling people to get out.
And what did the lowest common denominator do? They sat on their hands and waited for the storm.
Well they same thing is happened in the U.S. with the cost of gasoline. Since at least late 2005 early 2006 we have been hearing that gasoline prices were going to rise and $2 gas would be a fond memory. Well what did the lowest common denominator do.?
They bought Hummers, Expeditions, Yukons, V10's, Hemi's and any other vehicle that got less than 15 mpg in the city.
They were warned and they blew it off as rumor and fear mongering of large increases in future fuel prices.

Sorry, but people don't get to do anything they like. That's why there are laws, for the common good, and prisons for those who make selfish choices, like doing armed robberies.
See your changing the subject to fit your opinion and attempt to prove a weak point. We were talking about gas not crime.

The fuel situation in American today is a national crisis.
Havent seen that headline yet.
Why is it your car companies have allowed this to happen?
They control the price of gas? Are you talking about their FE rating? Basic economics says provide what people want. If they dont want gas hogs they wont buy them.

and contributing to global warming.
Not even going to comment on this farce.

That's what a good conservative should be doing.
Your certainly towing the liberal line yourself.

So much concern about market distorting gas tax increases and fuel economy standards.............

So little concern about market distorting billions in oil industry tax breaks & subsidies.............

Governments are always distorting markets. Historically, they are distorted towards "as cheap as possible" oil/gas.

Let's end that, brave free-marketeers! I'm sure the tax breaks DC provides are very troubling to you. ;)

The govt should never impose anything like that. Let the market like its doing now make people change. Why would the govt ever get involved in the carmakers mileage standards?

The market is a collection of people making decisions, not some amorphous sentient entity . And the people behind them have their own goals, their own biases, and their own ideas....and several of them are in conflict so it's occasionally hard to tell how the market will influence people to change.

The reason that the government should be involved in mileage standards is because the automakers don't seem keen on doing it themselves. It has unfortunately been a race to the bottom, with automakers taking advantage of every loophole they could find (light truck standards for SUVs and flex fuel to name a couple) to keep from making higher mileage cars.

If the automakers put out a fleet that vastly exceeded CAFE standards, instead of just barely complying, then you'd be absolutely right. Unfortunately, they aren't putting out that fleet.

Another couple dollars at the pump and you will see a large number of people switch to FE vehicles. If people want to and can afford $6 gas have at it, but if not they will bitch and then get something they can afford to drive.

But what if those vehicles aren't widely available? What if there are long waiting lists and short supply, as there are today?

To everyone that has posted in this thread today - we can tone down the partisanship and heat. Truth is suffering a bit on both sides of this argument...cheap oil is running out and there is just waaay too much political bickering by our elected officials inside the Beltway.

Havent seen that headline yet.




Where have you been? :confused:

http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/06/gas_at_4_a_gallon.html

$4-a-gallon gas driving economic crisis

With gas prices reaching a national average of $4-a-gallon over the weekend, the sense of national crisis is surging along with the cost of filling up.

The New York Times focuses attention on those consumers who are akin to canaries in the coal mine, low-income rural residents who must drive long distances to jobs. They are suffering the effects earliest and worst.

The oil price crisis: Not so difficult to understand

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2008/ss_oil0164_05_22.asp

While the US may not have invaded Iraq for oil, it is certainly true that the US considers the Persian Gulf region to be vital to our national interests, and those interests are due to one simple fact, our addiction to oil. If we weren't addicted to oil, we would not be in Iraq.

Harry

I hope we can not dwell on Iraq in this thread...not saying it irrelavant, but it gets people excited and partisan. There are plenty of other good arguments on the end of Cheap Oil and our lack of an Energy Policy.

Worn out old trucks/vans frequently get 10 mpg, not 13 mpg. 200 miles per week is 20 gallons per week-82 gallons per month.The price runup has been about $1.25 over the low about 1 year ago, $2 over the last 3 years (pre katrina it was just under $2 and some of that run up was from a Saudi king or some such dying) - and about $3 over the last 8 years.

Over 8 years this 40 mile per week beater vehicle owner has seen a $250 increase in fuel. Over 3 years it is about $165 increase over one year the increase is $100/mo.

In rural areas $900 month family income isn't uncommon. A $100 increase in fuel is a very big deal.

Poor working folks usually have one thing they can sell-a vehicle. When they have money problems they sell the "kinda" nice 2000 vintage vehicle for $3500, and they buy a $1000 beater. In the country pickups and vans are popular because they are versatile-you can make a buck with one by hauling whatever.

A beater 80's-90's pickup with 200,000 miles is worth maybe $1000.There are more of them than there are sedans because folks will repair a pickup or van because it can make them some money and be family transportation. A sedan is just transportation. Buying a pickup isn't an affectation, it is smart.

The fuel price runup is killing the rural working poor.Folks on this forum in general are well off, and in general are currently living in urban/suburban areas. THey really can't be expected to have much feel for how rural folks on the margins live.

$4 gas is a killer, and being dependent on indifferent to antagonistic foreign suppliers for energy is terrible. The sooner we get off foreign energy, the better. The price of energy is bad, but not being able to control the run up is worse. If we had alternatives the producing cartel would have to compete. We don't, so they don't. Over time you can adjust to higher cost, you can't adjust to what seems like a neverending run up.

Charlie

Hey! There is a law of "Diminishing Returns". I have an equal right to fuel, just as the "Fat Ass American" (FAA) doesn't have the right to my share too!

Well, it's time to get 10 to 13 mpg vehicles off the road and conserve fuel! Let them find another fuel efficient 35 mpg car. The long term investment might work for them!

Hi PBR:
Hey! There is a law of "Diminishing Returns". I have an equal right to fuel …
___I have no idea what kind of car you drive or the amount that you drive but a statement like that is almost insulting nowadays. If gas really becomes scarce (read shortages and lines) because we all had attitudes just like the one you described, there is literally going to be blood in the streets! We have/are consuming faster than we can replenish and at some point, you overrun the supply (getting close now) and than all hell breaks loose. Start saving immediately or that last gallon you burned today might just be the gallon you need to get your child to the hospital or somebody else’s child to the hospital tomorrow. Think about the bigger picture and the ramifications today.

___We all have a choice today and as you can tell by fuel prices, something is wrong. Before it gets out of hand, let us all work to fix it before there really are gun fights at the gas station!!! There is simply no time to waste due to our insatiable wants vs. our actual needs.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

99HXCivic,
10-12 mpg vehicles are coming off the roads. Folks who own these old vehicles ( older pickups, vans etc, not big buck Italian sports cars) find they can't afford to fix them when they go down with a moderate repair that is hard for them to do - like replacing an in tank fuel pump. It is a ~ $100 part, but a $500 repair. Same story with a severely leaking radiator - $300 part, but a $600 repair. They will put the money toward a small high mile POS car- an early 90's Cavaliar for $1200 or so.

Folks with very little money get caught in a transportation cycle that drains them and keeps them poor. They buy a cheap older vehicle, it breaks costs a lot to repair and it gets crummy FE. The solution is to make more money, but if you don't have to skills education to get better pay, that won't happen. This is why auto worker jobs in the union unfriendly south are so coveted. They get $12+ hr and regular hours. The low wages, low taxes are tempting for big corps; so tempting that they will do their own educating, and hire workers with marginal educations.

Charlie

Charlie

And what of the family that number 6? are they going to fit in that 45mpg car that is out there today? What about the items that they get while at the store?

Back in the 70's there where a hand full of vechiles that where getting into the 20's but then the American Sheep bought the line that they did not need it that good and went back to the mid Teen's.

When the Feds set the mpg's it is for YEARs down the road, it could be done much faster than that. We as a country missed the boat 25 years ago and are now paying for it.

Will we be missing the boat again?

Here in Alaska on the road system unleaded is from 4.199 to 4.549 and diesel is 4.799 to 5.379 and when one goes to the Bush of Alaska one can add at least 1.50 if not more to that..

There have been ideas put on the table for wind or water power but take a stab at who has stepped in and said no?

There is no fix over night like most of the American Sheep would like to have, but there are things that can be done for both the short term and long term energy of this country, the same country that put a man on the moon and back with in 8 years of JFK's speach.

The question is do we as a country still have the BALL's to do it again?

I offer my three step solution to cut gasoline consumption by a a quarter overnight, and a third within five years.

If we all pressed up our tires and quit driving our cars like we stole them we'd collectively be a whole lot better off.

And then put iFCD 's on the market so people can watch their mileage in real-time and learn how to drive more conservatively. Make them OBDii compatible for cars already on the road, and for new cars mandate they be in all vehicles.



Simple and nonpartisan solution. :)

Wayne, thanks for catching the issue correctly, So its change quickly or .......? Sorry about the slap, I'm not very good at dueling and "Time Is of the Esense" We can choose to change and may not need to change at all, but no harm will come of it (possibly good if we create a market). But choosing not to change, when we needed to change will create more of a quagmire. Again I'm sorry if I've awoken you too roughly. I have 2 Honda Insights 1. 2000, 5-spd typically 90mpg+ and 2. 2002 cvt typically 80mpg+. I don't wear them on my cuff as I'm dissapointed that my 250mpg goal hasn't been met. When I do reach that goal I can raise my head as we go to 500mpg (without ice cubes), if it's not to late. Good Nite, Butch