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...it's just at $9 a gallon, but truckers and other Europeans are hurting just as badly on their side of the pond. (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1809900,00.html)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/MB_Atego_-_Blutec-5_HD_Truck.jpgBruce Crumley - Time – May 28, 2008

Their threashold of pain is higher - but it's there. - Ed

American motorists are understandably grumbling over skyrocketing gas prices as the summer travel season approaches. But their pain hardly registers against the rage afoot in Europe these days. Fishermen, truck drivers and farmers are threatening to bring entire economic sectors to a halt with protests against crippling fuel costs. The wave of angry action is expected to spread further across Europe in coming days, despite efforts by political leaders to feel the pain and figure out how to alleviate it.

Strikes and blockades staged over the past three weeks by French fishermen spread this week to Spanish ports; Italy, Portugal, and Greece expect more of the same on Friday as mariners seek to force national governments to offset marine diesel prices, which have shot up by 40% since January. Single boat owners and entire trawler fleets face a real threat of bankruptcy...http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1809900,00.html

Maybe the Europeans will realize that their long-debunked, backward socialist economic policies are indeed causing huge amounts of damage. :)

Perhaps they will realize that taxing the bejeezus out of gas did not provide a solution while their governments pissed away the money on welfare instead of alternative energy. Maybe they'll cut the taxes to more reasonable levels to offset the pain at the pump and instead focus on alternative fuels that leave them energy-independent.

Maybe the Europeans will realize that their long-debunked, backward socialist economic policies are indeed causing huge amounts of damage. :)

Perhaps they will realize that taxing the bejeezus out of gas did not provide a solution while their governments pissed away the money on welfare instead of alternative energy. Maybe they'll cut the taxes to more reasonable levels to offset the pain at the pump and instead focus on alternative fuels that leave them energy-independent.Sorry I'm a bit slow, but had no idea the fuel hardships are fundamentally a right-wing vs left-wing isuse.

Trying to figure out how Europe's greater use of mass transit, walkable communities, less use of cars that go 60% farther than American counterparts is part of socialist stagnation. Last I checked, energy prices are hurting virtually every nation. Afghanistan is no longer getting grain from Pakistan because of fuel prices, so they have to grow food on the opium fields (no a bad thing ;) ) , but Afghans are spending 1/3 or 1/2 of all they have on food.

I acknowledge Europe is more socialist than the US, but can't see how this relatates to pain at the pump. If you want to discuss socialism, corn ethanol subsidies and standards breaks on light trucks would seem like a good place to start.

If extracting oil were a capitalism vs socalism issue that would be one thing, but it's not the economic system - it's the fact the world is running out of cheap oil.

Sorry I'm a bit slow, but had no idea the fuel hardships are fundamentally a right-wing vs left-wing isuse.

Trying to figure out how Europe's greater use of mass transit, walkable communities, less use of cars that go 60% farther than American counterparts is part of socialist stagnation. Last I checked, energy prices are hurting virtually every nation. Afghanistan is no longer getting grain from Pakistan because of fuel prices, so they have to grow food on the opium fields (no a bad thing ;) ) , but Afghans are spending 1/3 or 1/2 of all they have on food.

I acknowledge Europe is more socialist than the US, but can't see how this relatates to pain at the pump. If you want to discuss socialism, corn ethanol subsidies and standards breaks on light trucks would seem like a good place to start.

Ok, here we go. :) Just as long as we don't make it personal or resort to any fallacies.


I correlate Euro-socialism with extremely heavy taxation--correctly, I believe, because of the highly progressive tax rates, high taxes on gasoline and diesel, and VAT's across the board. Anything in Europe is considerably more expensive, not because it really is, but because the government takes a huge slice along the way. Unemployment is much, much higher in Europe because of the power of the unions and unwillingness of the companies to make new hires for that reason--and the government's left footing the bill to support 10+% unemployment in France and elsewhere. And there isn't nearly as much of an incentive for the unemployed to get a job because the government's providing a safety net they could just hang around the rest of their lives getting a free lunch. At the expense of those who actually work for a living, that is.

Europe does have a better mass transit system and many more walkable communities. I'm currently in North Philly for a couple weeks, and it's a very walkable community (in the daytime, at least!). 9 out of 10 things are within walking distance, including three stores, a bar, two gas stations, etc.

But that simply doesn't apply to newer suburbs which grew around the automobile and the mobility it provided. It was a far cheaper solution to just build a road and make people get cars than to run mass transit to every subdivision, which would result in such low ridership rates per vehicle that it would never become financially solvent, or even close to that.

This is part of a far, far greater problem that America alone suffers from, because we actually have the sheer amount of available land to do so--urban sprawl. There's no such thing in Europe because it's been really crowded ever since Roman times. But when given the choice people will choose to put some space between themselves and the next guy because cities, while they are the centers of learning and culture, are also throughout history cesspools of crime, disease, and other unwelcome things.

I agree that urban sprawl is a HUGE problem--as Cincinnati grows northward into the Miami Valley it is expected to be merged with Dayton to become a huge metroplex within 10 years! So in other words we'd have a Dallas/Fort Worth mess in the middle of Ohio, too, along with the traffic nightmares and pollution associated with it. It on paper doesn't look bad, until you realize that Cincinnati and Dayton are 50 miles apart and the entire area in between is now full of sprawl.

And I know European cars are far more efficient than American ones. That's because their definition of a "large car" is a Ford Escort. And they're just fine with that, whereas many here need their land barges. :)


Energy prices are hurting other nations, yes. Gas prices are lower in many of those places here, too--it's because their average income is so much lower that the pinch is even worse than it is here, or in Europe.

And ethanol...that's a discussion that needs its own book to be written.

Just repeat after me: "Ethanol is the biggest scam ever perpetrated on the American consumer by the energy industry."

lamebums,

Based on your premise that Europe's pain-at-the-pump problems are primarily political, Americans should be feeling no discomfort from today's energy prices or most of the rest of the world for that matter?

One thing Im really not clear on here - are the oil producing companies and nations really having a supply shortage or are they colluding to increase profits? If times are hard for them, why the record profits every single quarter? That doesn't compute.

Im not even going to start on the socialism/capitalism arguement - they are both flawed, and it is terribly difficult to find anyone with enough knowledge of economics to give you a cogent arguement for why one is better than the other. There is no ideal economic system. Take what you have and make it work if you can.

It's in the economic self-interest of OPEC to pump more oil than they currently are....if it can be done. It's not happening, so what's the conspiracy theories of not opening the tap?

Hi Auston:

___Because we have “Pissed away” over $9 Trillion and counting, the dollar is worth just 60% what it was vs. the Europeans just a few short years ago. When a regular Irish citizen is making more than the average US citizen, it is time to start looking in the mirror. Especially since you are going to pay for it long after some of us are gone. Retire? Fat chance! Without 20% of our GDP coming from the govt. and of course the $400 Billion a year in deficit spending in 08 (if we are lucky !), we would be in a depression. And because of it, we will be closer to China and Mexico in terms of net worth than any country in the EU if we stay our present course :rolleyes:

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/debtiv.gif
US Debt Clock

___Did you know Ford, GM and most European manufacturers are making money in Europe vs. the blood letting the domestics are currently experiencing in the US? All with huge fuel costs in $USD. Remember the Europeans have higher prices but because of the falling $, there $9.00 per is more like $5.50 per and they have universal health care and a month + vacation for most employees.

___Now think about this … Average FE of the EU is 35 mpg and they pay what feels like $5.50 - $6.00 per due to the appreciation of their currencies. Average FE of the US is 20.2 mpg and we are paying $4.00 per. Maybe if the $ falls by half again, they will be paying $18.00 per. But they will be doubling their income by comparison. Let us see it double yet again. Oh my god, in $USD’s, gasoline will cost $36.00 per gallon in Europe! And the average European will be earning over $200,000 per year in equivalent $USD’s. All the while gasoline will cost $15.00 per gallon here and the average US citizen will still be averaging less than $40,000 … Hmmmm. Sucks to be us I guess :ccry:

___Good Luck

___Wayne

It's in the economic self-interest of OPEC to pump more oil than they currently are....if it can be done. It's not happening, so what's the conspiracy theories of not opening the tap?

It's not in their economic interest to increase production, because even the possibility that they might would send oil prices tumbling, and so would their profits. :)


I'll reply to everything properly tomorrow (it's going on 12 here so.... yeah.)

Maybe the Europeans will realize that their long-debunked, backward socialist economic policies are indeed causing huge amounts of damage. :)


OMG. Are you serious?

Tell me that you are just pulling our legs and that you don't believe in anything you just said. :confused:


Cheers;

MSantos

Point of interest to consider, Europe has a much lower poverty rate than the US. The US has 17.0% of the population living under the median income (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States), while the entire EU lies at just around 10% (http://www.poverty.org.uk/L11/index.shtml).

Peak Oil is already causing squabbling here, and may cause wars.

It's only going to get worse. Gasoline prices should retreat a bit in a month or two, but the long-term trend looks pretty grim. Maybe the $US will recover a bit when they send Bush packing.

Harry

A recent National Geographic article states of the 2000 biggest oil/gas wells, 40% come from just 120 of them. Higher energy costs are hurting Europe, the US, Asia, the Third World...this interjection of everything is politics, politics, politics is as absurd as Freud saying everything is sex, sex, sex...life's a little more complicated.

When it comes down to it, gas here and gas there, can't really be very different in price. Sure one group may appear to pay more, but when dollars are adjusted or you look percentage of income they must come up close since we all pay the same for oil and labor costs aren't that different. When you add all the tax rebates/breaks/incentives given to oil, how much does it really cost us? I'd much rather we paid an honest $10 a gallon at the pump than a lying $5 at the pump....and another $5 per gallon in tax money being given to big oil. Sure I'm exaggerating a bit, but you get the point. With out government having backed oil like it was a hurting industry, we have just created a false price at pump and not given ourselves a real view of the situation. Its a bit like two people being pushed out of plane with a parachute bag full of useless linens. Except the Europeans knew about when they got pushed so they have the whole fall to try to work something out. We are blissfully ignorant until the last minute when we pull the cord and see a 400 count sheet go fluttering off as we continue hurtling towards the ground...our last view? The European guy who was able to grab onto another skydiver...both floating down together.

What's this about Europe not investing in clean energy? Toyota leads the pack in hybrids. Germany has more renewable energy (as a percentage) than any other country and might be at 50% by 2030 if the current trends continue. The rest of Europe had renewable mandates long before us, and those are higher than ours; And they are on a good track to meet them. Their companies developed much of the tech being used to create the best wind turbines today. Even the American companies that are manufacturing equipment here either designed overseas, consulted overseas, or hired from overseas. And lets not forget France, a country many people both love and hate. It has a tremendous amount of nuclear power, and the will to develop more. As long as its safe and clean, no reason not to go that way...right Wayne? (Although....I prefer other methods, sorry)

Sure we have talk about getting our renewable energies up to a small percentage over a certain time, but no real plan with financial backing to make it happen. We have a president who continues to back oil and a congress, who doesn't have the power to override that president on such a big issues. So they, congress, are doing silly little tax breaks of no real importance and which ultimately could only have a negative effect. It's ridiculous. Until there is a clear, unifying concept to replace oil and other limited, dirty power, and a group of people willing to write and pass the legislation necessary to make it come true (even if it is painful), we will continue to hurtle towards the ground at 100 miles an hour with near certainty of a bad, bad outcome. Hopefully elections and change of staff will happen before the ground is too close, and hopefully they won't fix the situation by just putting on a blindfold.

The protests are normal for Europe, the French block the ports and shut down the air traffic control most years, it is not a sign of revolution, just part of the culture.

I for one would gladly pay $9 a gallon if it got me an incredible public transit system and low or no cost healtchare.

I for one would gladly pay $9 a gallon if it got me an incredible public transit system and low or no cost healtchare.

The public transit system here in Pittsburgh is going bankrupt because of run away costs and no oversight.

Almost all of the U.S. transit systems are in trouble because of financial mismanagement by their government appointed boards.

I have a problem with why people expect a routine doctors visit to be covered.

What we don't have $100 for a once a year exam?

But we will spend $4.50 every morning at Starbucks for a cup of coffee.

I'll keep my private health insurance over Government care any day.

Look at Medicare and Medicaid financial problems and you want them to run your health care.

Now back to the subject at hand. The economies outside the U.S. are quite structured and not very flexible.
We have the most diverse and flexible economies in the world. Private industry can quickly see when a market
is changing and make the necessary changes to weather the storm as they say.

High fuel taxes and Value Added Taxes (VAT) are fine as long as oil is trading at $40 a barrel.
You have a major increase in energy costs and those taxes are a very heavy burden on a western
oil based economy. We have seen how people in the U.S. have started to change their lifestyles
to adjust to higher fuel prices. Other society's don't have that option available to them.

Short term the E.U. can weather these high oil prices. But if this goes on more than a year or two
there is going to be a problem with inflation as companies and governments finally have to pass on their
higher energy costs to the public.

I regret posting this article because members are reaching to pervert this into a political thread...seriously considering closing it. I might understand this if it was global warming or focusing on legislation, but that's not really part of the story.

I regret posting this article because members are reaching to pervert this into a political thread...seriously considering closing it. I might understand this if it was global warming or focusing on legislation, but that's not really part of the story.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but the article did have a certain political nature to it, so for us to comment without touching on the politics would be nearly impossible.

Out of curiosity, what things, that are not political, would you have thought we would have commented on?

I was just in germany a month ago. gasoline was $8.79 for low grade regular.

Well worth it, didnt find 1 road with a crack or pothole. I bet a suspension there lasts.....forever. My diesel bmw 118d rental got 36mpg U.S. doing 110mph. Thats better than every chevy sold here (its real fuel economy at normal speeds is 43/58mpg).

My wifes relatives all have cars. But they subway, train, walk, bike to work whenever possible. Obviously their houses and shops are all built side by side as close as possible, and no one worked more than 10km from their home that i met, so walking and biking is not a problem compared to here. And the town i stayed in had a 10 minute walk to a train station which was then 45 minutes to Munich. The train stations have parking ramps, and bike racks....some stops have more bikes than cars parked at the train stations.

Overall they have planned very efficiently, partly due to their age, partly because they cant afford to drive 50 miles a day to work, as most of them do not have "$100k" salary jobs. And their healthcare system is not paid for out of gasoline money....its paid out of the 8.1% payroll tax...everyone pays. Little more % than i pay for insurance....about 6x more infact, but you can go to the doctor and not worry your copay is 5 grand. The gasoline tax is mainly spent to keep transportation working....roads are great, trains are great....i would love to see that kind of transporation system here.

Hi Toast:

___Sorry to all for going way OT … You got to drive a 118d! Hot damn, that is one of my favorites next to the Civic iCDTi and the Ford Fiesta with the 1.6L TDCi!

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/BMW_1_Series_3-Door.jpg
BMW 118d – 2.0L European Super Diesel

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2007_Civic_iCDTi_Hatch_-_Front_end_review_pic.jpg
Honda Civic iCDTi – 2.2L European Super Diesel

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/Fiesta_ST.jpg
Ford Fiesta – 1.6L European Super Diesel

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Yes, i did a write up on tdiclub, pictures, facts, heres the link if you want to read/see it.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=212216

It was rated 43/58mpg u.s. after i figured out conversions. I drove 200 miles approx, averaged 35-36mpg at 100-110mph...got it up to 126mph. Has Auto on/off engine at stops if you take the 6spd out of gear and release the clutch, like a hch. Mine was the base model, but even that was better than any car ive driven here.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but the article did have a certain political nature to it, so for us to comment without touching on the politics would be nearly impossible.

Out of curiosity, what things, that are not political, would you have thought we would have commented on?We are adults here - I did not say no politics, but that it was excessive and not justified by the article. There is a happy medium and it's not hard to find. ;)

The problem is the first response to this thread immediately hijacked it into the fallacy that Europe's energy woes' depends on weather or not every European head of state has in their office a portrait of Thatcher or Gorbachev...high oil prices are afflicting free markets and socalist economies alike. Politics does affects many things, but that's not the point of this article.

Politics is in many of the topics here - discussions as we know it would not exist without some mention of it. It's the political hack nonsense I'm at issues with. For example, an advowed Marxist will often dwell only on his worldview that everything is a class struggle, even what would seem the most non-political topic imaginable...the first response to this article was one of those "everything is a capitalism vs socialism" responses.

Dont quote me, but doesnt the EU have about 700million people, and use about 15 million barrels of oil/day? Sounds like their policies are top notch....if youve been to europe, its not exactly skid row..they have homes, and food and toilet paper...even ice cream :)

They should bring that BMW118d to America!

They should bring that BMW118d to America!
That would not be good at all. If they did that, I would have to start saving up to buy one;)

Dont quote me, but doesnt the EU have about 700million people, and use about 15 million barrels of oil/day? Sounds like their policies are top notch....if youve been to europe, its not exactly skid row..they have homes, and food and toilet paper...even ice cream :)

Hey, here's a bum just off skid row... it was interesting reading the postings on this thread and as for political views, well everyone has his or her own pet theory, so no great shakes there either.

To get back on topic , "Europeans Also Feel Pain at the Pump", it is true. While a poster attempted to convert it all back to dollars and say everything was relative, that simply isn't true. These prices hurt a lot of people. To give some idea, the price of petrol (I'll call it gas from here on) a year ago was about 89p a litre. Last week I paid 113p a litre. Fuel has increased 27% in a year. Wages and salaries have only increased 3 to 4% max on average, but the knock on effect of higher gas prices is presenting itself in higher food costs, well above inflation (officially about 3%, in reality more like 7-8%).

So families are in a crunch. Everything is going up faster than their salaries and all they can do (for the lucky ones) is reduce savings to keep on track, or as is most common, borrow more to pay off debts (a never ending cycle of misery).

Did gas prices cause all this ? Probably not, it would appear to be the knock on effect of the sub-prime lending debacle from the US that started it all, but higher gas prices is the last thing we need and yes, when the wallet is empty, it hurts even more to fill up...

fortunately for me though, I bought a Prius 2 months ago, which has actually reduced my total gas costs per month even after gas price hikes of 27% and rising, so I feel quite fortunate from that point of view.

Thanks

Hey, here's a bum just off skid row... it was interesting reading the postings on this thread and as for political views, well everyone has his or her own pet theory, so no great shakes there either.

To get back on topic , "Europeans Also Feel Pain at the Pump", it is true. While a poster attempted to convert it all back to dollars and say everything was relative, that simply isn't true. These prices hurt a lot of people. To give some idea, the price of petrol (I'll call it gas from here on) a year ago was about 89p a litre. Last week I paid 113p a litre. Fuel has increased 27% in a year. Wages and salaries have only increased 3 to 4% max on average, but the knock on effect of higher gas prices is presenting itself in higher food costs, well above inflation (officially about 3%, in reality more like 7-8%).

So families are in a crunch. Everything is going up faster than their salaries and all they can do (for the lucky ones) is reduce savings to keep on track, or as is most common, borrow more to pay off debts (a never ending cycle of misery).

Did gas prices cause all this ? Probably not, it would appear to be the knock on effect of the sub-prime lending debacle from the US that started it all, but higher gas prices is the last thing we need and yes, when the wallet is empty, it hurts even more to fill up...

fortunately for me though, I bought a Prius 2 months ago, which has actually reduced my total gas costs per month even after gas price hikes of 27% and rising, so I feel quite fortunate from that point of view.

Thanks

I just visited relatives in Germany last month. They were not happy about high benzene?? (that what you call gasoline?) prices, but they deal with it. Mainly because Europe was built compact and transit is 100x better than in the U.S. you guys can deal with getting around with minimal fuel use. Most of my wifes relatives bicycle to work or walk, or bicycle to a train station.

I got a 4% raise last october, diesel for my car is up 100% since that time...so 27% increase in fuel and a 4% raise is looking nice to me.....though diesel here is a bargain compared to you...thats why im not complaining. Cheerio.