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Pueblo drivers want to cut gas costs; even used models are hard to find. (http://www.chieftain.com/business/1209276000/1)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/2006_Honda_Civic_Hybrid.jpgAngie Evans - The Pueblo Chieftain - April 27, 2008

2008 HCH-II – EPA rated at 42 mpg combined.

Used going for the price of new and even waiting lists in some areas … again :( -- Ed.

Pueblo car dealers are struggling to keep up with the demand for hybrid vehicles as drivers search out ways to save money at the pump.

“They're selling as fast as they come in,” reported Scott Fonda, sales manager for Vidmar Motor Co. at 600 Albany Ave.

Pueblo Toyota Inc., 2125 U.S. 50 West, sold six hybrids in one week, according to Kenny Hatch, sales manager.

Hatch said the dealership is having a tough time keeping up with demand.

“With gas prices going up, more people are buying (hybrids). It's about supply and demand. We need more supply,” Hatch said.

That's no surprise. The Honda Civic gets 40 miles per gallon in the city and 45 on the highway, according to Fonda. The Toyota Prius gets 48 miles per gallon in the city and 45 on the highway.

HYBRIDS ALSO are scarce for buyers because Pueblo car dealers don't receive many from their manufacturers… http://www.chieftain.com/business/1209276000/1

Oh, how the times are changing... again.
A regular acquaintance and also a local Honda used car salesman mentioned a few weeks ago that he sold two Civic Hybrids, one a 2006 and the other a 2007 for roughly the same amount and they each cost more than a brand new 2008 EX (MT).
Title-less new HCH's on the lot? Not a chance.

Across the street no Prius (new or old) are found in the Toyota lots either.



Cheers;

MSantos

I always check up on craigslist and all the other used car sites for an honda insight or prius for a good deal (even when I'm not even in the market for a car I still look, no idea why), but many times I see them with over 100k mileage, or they cost as much as a brand new one. Glad to see they have a high resale value, but it stinks for those looking to get one.

On the same note I continue to look for Civic HBs on CL. I saw a white 1992 (154k miles) and a red 2000 (128k miles) for $2800 and $2900. Both were 5 speeds too! I wish I could unbuy my auto, and go get one of those!

The article said,

"The waiting list may be as long as 60 days for the GMC Yukon hybrid, according to Jack Everhart, a salesman for Wilcoxson Buick-Cadillac-GMC, 902 N. Santa Fe Ave".

If it is relief from high gasoline prices that is your motivation to buy a hybrid, why on earth would you buy a Yukon hybrid?? Certainly not much relief there!

Relief in my book is a small 4 banger (2.0 L or under) with a nice 5 or 6 speed manual Trany. Now, that will help what is ailing your wallet!

If it is relief from high gasoline prices that is your motivation to buy a hybrid, why on earth would you buy a Yukon hybrid?? Certainly not much relief there!

I actually feel sorry for GM as posts like this illustrate that people really just don't get it. Going from a 14MPG full-size SUV to a 22MPG SUV will save more money than going from 25 MPG to 40 MPG.

100,000 miles at 14 MPG = 7142.85 gallons, which at 3.50 per gallon is $25,000.00
100,000 miles at 22 MPG = 4545.45 gallons, which at 3.50 per gallon is $15,909.09 for a net savings of $9090.91

100,000 miles at 25MPG = 4000 gallons, which at 3.50 per gallon is $15,000.00
100,000 miles at 50MPG = 2000 gallons, which at 3.50 per gallon is $ 7,000.00 for asvings of $8,000.00.

So a person who needs a full-size SUV upgrading from a 14MPG non-hybrid to a 22MPG hybrid SUV, saves more gas and money than the person who upgrades from a 25MPG non-hybrid car to a 50MPG hybrid car.

Now granted, if the person doesn't need a full-size SUV, then they can save even more by downsizing, however it is a mistake to take that as a given.

Hi Dsharp:

___You are swallowing the GM’esque mantra hook, line and sinker. Driving a 21 mpg FSP doesn’t save any fuel compared to driving a 45 mpg Prius, HCH-II or hypermiling to that level. Similar to how the 2-Mode is being marketed. As fuel efficient as a Camry or Accord around town if you are lucky! I have yet to hear of an Accord or Camry driver with that low a tank ever!

___The public at large is getting it as SUV and P/U truck sales are off ~ 25% so far this year and the reason is because of the prospect of a $23,000 fuel bill over the next 5 - 7 years! Than we have your 22 mpg figure of a Tahoe/Yukon 2-Mode… Read some of the test drives of the 2-Modes for a reality check. They are easily worth over 30 mpg when driven properly yet the reviewers and the masses are lucky to get 20 out of the 21 mpg rated SUV :rolleyes: Sure beats the 12 – 14 some are pulling from their current FSP’s but 20 mpg doesn’t cut it nowadays.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wayne, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. As I stated, it's a mistake to assume that everyone's needs would be met by a Prius. For these people, it's a large vehicle, or... a large vehicle. So if there were no large vehicle hybrids, they would continue to burn a huge amount of gas because they have no alternative.

Giving these people an alternative is not a bad thing, believe it or not. I do believe that most people don't need these behemoths, but that's a far cry from saying that absolutely nobody should own a large vehicle.

The silver lining behind higher fuel prices is that we might actually be changing driving habits. It fuel stays expensive long enough, we will start to see investments in public transport, and alternative fuels.

I just read an article stating that we have the technology to manufacture syn-crude at $55/barrel. I think that's a fantastic idea, anything that helps the US achieve energy independence is a good thing. Because mark my words, global conflict caused by peak oil is a more immediate threat than global warming. Reducing our dependency on foreign oil reduces the likelihood that we will end up at war with China, Russia, or India over energy resources.

In any case, you missed the point of my post. The person I was responding to was stating that a greater than 50% savings on fuel costs isn't much of a relief. I was simply pointing out that going from 14 MPG to 22MPG provides as much or more relief in $$$ terms, than going from 25MPG to 50MPG. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.

Dave

Dsharp, I'm sure a small diesel would work well in these behemoths for the the "work" they might be exposed to. 22 mpg....really not going to do it. as the majority of these will never see more load than 2 adults and a few kids.

Hi Dsharp:

___When I pull the Landscape trailer out of the garage w/ the Ranger and take a pic tomorrow, maybe you will see the light. The Largest Ford P/U truck sold in the UK is the Ranger w/ a diesel and for some reason, no SUV’s? The sales of large SUV’s across the entire EU are almost nil yet they are being justified as work vehicles here in the US? P/U trucks hauling work trailers sure but the EU and Asia gets by without them somehow? SUV’s as work vehicles? Only because someone says they are and we all know better.

___I will work my @$$ off to help those that are currently saddled with these vehicles achieve better FE but to promote yet another purchase is throwing good money down the sewer to the detriment of our country and our planet.

___As for Syn Crude, the tar sands are producing a BBl for < $25 per. Even Shale can be turned into crude for < $50 using some of the DOE estimates. Saudi well’s are pumping for < $5 per BBl but that does not mean supply and demand have not gotten out of whack even at the most recent prices.

___We are in deep $*** because of our addiction and considering a 21 mpg SUV when we need at least 45 to get out of this mess is perpetuating a bad situation. If you want to see reality, sit next to a highway near you and start counting the SUV’s with trailers hauling work vehicles and supplies.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

... As I stated, it's a mistake to assume that everyone's needs would be met by a Prius. For these people, it's a large vehicle, or... a large vehicle. So if there were no large vehicle hybrids, they would continue to burn a huge amount of gas because they have no alternative.
...

Sorry DSharp;

But for those of us who actually lived abroad, the Prius IS a large vehicle. Heck my HCH-2's are midsize vehicles far larger than what most Western Europeans will ever own.

The chronic and tired definition of "need" in contemporary North American society is a joke of global proportions that only the rest of the world appears to see.
Hybridizing large trucks and SUVs for anything other than commercial, farming or industrial purposes is like making "lite" cigarettes while trying to look responsible. Hardly a significant step in the right direction.

We are indeed spoiled, but if it is any consolation we're beginning to pay for it. And we'll continue that way until we finally fall inline with the rest of the world. They sure do not "need" these "larger vehicles" and neither should we.


Cheers;

MSantos

But for those of us who actually lived abroad,...
MSantos, I appreciate your contributions to the site, but I don't appreciate the condescension. I lived in Germany for 10 years and had dual-citizenship until I was 18.
I've traveled throughout all of western Europe, as well as to Israel, Egypt, Singapore, and also lived for a short time in Taiwan with my extended family. I'd say that qualifies me as having "actually lived abroad".

Dave

___We are in deep $*** because of our addiction and considering a 21 mpg SUV when we need at least 45 to get out of this mess is perpetuating a bad situation. If you want to see reality, sit next to a highway near you and start counting the SUV’s with trailers hauling work vehicles and supplies.


Yes it would be better if those who don't need them downsized to small vehicles. I concede that point. However at the same time, I think there should be fuel-efficient options for those with a legitimate need for a large vehicle. You apparently disagree. Oh well.

Dave

Sorry Dave, "condescension" was not my intent at all.

... but on the other hand, I am happy to know that we both share a common perspective on this issue. Wouldn't you agree?

Unfortunately, it just did not appear that way.

Cheers;

MSantos

Hi Dave:

___I know we are coming down hard and it is not intended to be condescending or directed particularly at you.

___I am sure you have seen my frustration with what is offered overseas vs. what we have available here. If we do not start questioning the status quo now, we will be a third world nation before we have the chance to figure out what we did to ourselves. Condoning an FSP purchase in today’s environment no matter your political leaning only hastens the fall. Recommending anything associated with a 20 mpg vehicle today is a mistake on so many levels that there had better be a very specific and real good reason for considering one. Towing horses across the country with a Tahoe 2-Mode Hybrid is not going to cut it.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wayne, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. As I stated, it's a mistake to assume that everyone's needs would be met by a Prius. For these people, it's a large vehicle, or... a large vehicle. So if there were no large vehicle hybrids, they would continue to burn a huge amount of gas because they have no alternative.

Perhaps on your next road trip or commute you should count the number of trucks with nothing in the bed, and the number of SUVs with 2 or fewer people in them. I think you'll be surprised with the numbers. I'm guessing a fair number Personally, I don't think anyone needs to own an SUV for camping twice a year, or a giant van for moving or helping someone move once in a great while, or a truck for light towing (when a diesel will fit the bill nicely). More than likely, they could get by in something smaller and more efficient and rent a truck/SUV/U-haul for those few times a year where a small or midsize car simply falls short. Personally, I'd much prefer having 98% of driving optimized for FE, and dealing with a little extra hassle for that other 2%.

Still, some people do have an honest need for a big car. I'm guessing that the number of people with an honest need for a big car that can't be fulfilled by a hybrid or diesel is at least two orders of magnitude less than the number of people who own said big cars.

I'd give GM some slack if they actually put something out that gets amazing FE, that really pushes the ceiling higher (2-mode Aveo or Malibu, anyone?). And no, the Volt doesn't count until it's actually out. To me, simply raising the floor as GM seems content to do shows me that they're only interested in barely complying with CAFE and other regulations and not putting out anything that gets good FE on their own. You can shine up that 22 MPG turd all you want, I'd much rather get 50 MPG, take a "hit" in savings.

Giving these people an alternative is not a bad thing, believe it or not. I do believe that most people don't need these behemoths, but that's a far cry from saying that absolutely nobody should own a large vehicle.

And I don't think anyone here would say that. We recognize the need for big, rugged vehicles. What we are is skeptical when people say they "need" a large vehicle. We grill them on it, and we offer potential alternatives. If they actually need said vehicle (and not simply because they want it or they "like to sit higher"), their reasons would hold up against our scrutiny. Please stop arguing against a straw man.

That's pretty much the case. The "neeeed" for a huge living room sized vehicle is grossly exaggerated. They almost never actually, really need it. Practically all those hugs fsp's are carrying the exact items and passengers (one usually) sitting in an Echo.

So what did we do before suv' were pitched to us and got grossly big? We were fine.

The word- sports - utility - vehicle -is the biggest marketing scam since 4 dollar Starbucks and 40,000 dollar Harleys. Over hyped. Over rated. Over Priced. But people feel they "need" it.

Barely a soul ever uses the things for "Sports" nor actual "Utility".

The car companies got people really good on that sales pitch. They knew which buttons to push and people bit.

You know I just have to say. Yes we Americans are truly spoiled beyond recognition.

We are in a "recession" when we can't buy as many big homes or cars or cable packages or cell phones or clothes as we are "accustomed" to.

No one is truly starving on any large scale. Even when I found myself losing my job, I still found myself well fed, warm, sheltered, and watching DVD's, and driving a car with a cell phone still glued to my yapper. Just a bit worried though. That's a pretty good "bad" economy.

But to keep more to the point of what you "need" in a vehicle, it blew my mind that when I bought a small motorcycle with two saddle bags, I bought 50 bucks worth of groceries and took them home. Then I would go to the hardware store get something else, then go get a few books at the library. Then a movie. All on a motorcycle. I realized how even my small car could be substituted almost all of the time.

Yes, a small amount of people need the larger vehicle. But far and wide only a slightly larger one.
The case of the Ford Ranger being the "SUV" in Europe shows us a lot. Very few of us can truly say anything very big is a "need".

We live in a rich society and a great country if our only problem is having to "down" size.
For me, it's a pleasure, and I'm very glad to have found this site to call attention to all my former wasteful ways.

My take on this thread, is that 14 to 22 mpg versus 25 to 40 mpg @ $3.50/gallon might make for an interesting point to some. But if it really was a good point, then the higher prices that are coming soon should serve to make the point even more obvious to the rest of us, yes? i.e. going from 14 to 22 mpg @ $6/gallon "saves" even more money, yes?

No, I think as the price goes up and up, that point becomes less and less interesting, as people will focus more on how much money is being wasted by not having bought something that gets 40mpg. As gas approaches $4 or $5 or $10/gallon, 22mpg will seem more and more silly. Regardless of how much it saves over 14mpg.

It will be interesting to see how badly people "need" their FSPs as prices continue to climb. I think very soon even 40mpg will be considered lousy mileage.

Wayne, I understand your frustration with all of the under-utilized "FSPs" as you call them. However, that's not the fault of the vehicle, that's the fault of the consumers who purchase them. I simply don't agree that manufacturing large vehicles is wrong in and of itself.

What's wrong is to induce consumers to purchase vehicles ill-suited to their needs. If you're going to take out your frustrations on anything, it should be on the marketing tactics that are used to convince people to purchase more vehicle than they need; it should be on the entrenched local interests that defeat mass transit initiatives by scare-mongering local land ownser with the spectre of eminent domain.

I think there should be no restrictions on what vehicles are available, becase that's not where the problem lies. The problem lies with corporate interests that are at odds with the public good, and a political leadership that is beholden to those corporate interests. Corporations want to maximize profits, so they push consumers into vehicles with the largest margin, which happen to be the large SUVs and Trucks. That's where the problem lies. It's not the fact that they manufacture large vehicles, it's that they try to get people to buy them, who don't need such large vehicles.

The other major issue is a lack of political leadership. A responsible political leadership would embark on an alternative fuels "manhattan project." There are projects being worked on that can produce "bio-gasoline" that avoids the infrastructure problems of ethanol. We just need to scale the technology up. There is a company that claims it can produce 100,000 gallons of algae oil per acre per year by growing algae in vertically arranged tubes. This is the type of technology we need to be pursuing.

Giving these people an alternative is not a bad thing, believe it or not. I do believe that most people don't need these behemoths, but that's a far cry from saying that absolutely nobody should own a large vehicle.

In any case, you missed the point of my post. The person I was responding to was stating that a greater than 50% savings on fuel costs isn't much of a relief. I was simply pointing out that going from 14 MPG to 22MPG provides as much or more relief in $$$ terms, than going from 25MPG to 50MPG. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.

Dave

Good Morning, Dave;

I am the person you originally responded to and my feeling that buying a Yukon hybrid does not offer much relief is defenitely a valid point. I have a behemouth (4 Runner). I agree with you that mathematically calculating the difference between 14 MPG and 25 MPG with a fixed cost of gasoline over 100,000 miles could show savings higher than 25 MPG to 45 MPG. But that is not the problem. The problem is that our country and we all personally have to get off oil quick, real real quick. I have done that by my wife and I hypermiling two cars that are getting us 45 to 55 MPG. We are using the 4 Runner when it is needed only. America has to start doing this also, and start quick.

I think this is the point Wayne is making. The era of cheap oil is over. We must radically change and do it soon or what we are doing in Iraq will start to rear its ugly head over and over.

We will never be able to effect this change if we do not stop the legal corruption that is special interest groups and lobbying. Nothin can be accomplished until that is fixed, trust me on that!:flag: