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View Full Version : Water/Methanol Injection Emissions Reductions


Intense
03-26-2008, 03:39 AM
Hey guys, first post here but I have lurked for a while. I drive a 2006 Subaru WRX that is pretty modified hehe :p but anyways I should be getting a Honda Fit here soon so I can feel more a part of this site.

Water injection or Methanol injection is a great tool for extracting more power from cars, especially turbo charged ones like mine. The octane boost, latent heat of evaporation, air and cylinder cooling effects can be enormous with alcohol injection. This has been seen since Turbo Buicks started doing it many moons ago.

I have read some hints here and there that methanol actually reduces emissions drastically- something like 30% by keeping cylinder temps down, ensuring a more complete burn etc. Does anyone have any information about this? I am very interested in finding ways to mechanically improve my mileage. I have already used a very lean map for my car on my commute and it has helped drastically. I use logging software and I can measure air/fuel, MPG, fuel temp, Intake air temp etc etc it is pretty trick stuff!

Intense
04-01-2008, 10:15 PM
so no one knows about methanol injection and emissions reductions?

xcel
04-02-2008, 01:11 AM
Hi Intense:

___Many know quite a bit about methanol injection as it has been used prior to WW-II but driving recently purchased clean vehicles, the only thing an injection mechanism like that will do is cause worse emissions rather than better.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Intense
04-02-2008, 01:34 AM
Hi Intense:

___Many know quite a bit about methanol injection as it has been used prior to WW-II but driving recently purchased clean vehicles, the only thing an injection mechanism like that will do is cause worse emissions rather than better.

___Good Luck

___Wayne


Hmm bummer I will do some more research I could've sworn I saw a study about it somewhere.

Intense
04-02-2008, 01:55 AM
Here are a few articles I found that say they reduce emissions and MPG's but they aren't very conclusive:
http://www.dieselworldmag.com/content/view/70/37/

It obviously makes sense it is an alternate fuel so you are using less of the gasoline and replacing it with methanol. So I don't know if it helps mileage besides the substitution with methanol. I think the emissions could be a real reduction though.

http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/enfuem/2008/22/i02/abs/ef7003706.html

This one seems more legitimate and what I had read previously. I'm not sure if many of you guys are into just getting great mileage or also having a clean running car (most of the time they are one and the same) but I am interested in both.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)

Here is an unsubstantiated claim on Wiki that says it reduces NOX

Meth injection effectively steam cleans the engine as well keeping carbon deposits to a minimum and increasing efficiency.

So I'm not really sure what I am getting at because I'm pretty sure there is some evidence behind the notion that it decreases emissions- especially NOX. I am thinking about getting a meth kit and getting smogged before and after and post up.

xcel
04-02-2008, 02:14 AM
___Let us start here …

Current light-duty vehicle emission standards

Emissions std.|NOx|NMOG|CO|PM|HCHO
Tier2/Bin2|0.02|0.010|2.1|0.01|0.004
Tier2/Bin3|0.03|0.055|2.1|0.01|0.011
Tier2/Bin4|0.04|0.070|2.1|0.01|0.011
Tier2/Bin5|0.07|0.090|4.2|0.01|0.018
* All the above in g/mile and spec’ed out to 100 – 120K miles.

___You will not be able to purchase a car or light truck in the US below the bottom of this list (Tier II/Bin5) after this year and I have never heard of a retrofit Methanol injection to not only meet but improve upon the basic standards here in the US today off the factory floor. Even Tier II/Bin 5 is so clean it is darn near non-detect at load after CAT light off.

___If you want to include Evaporative emissions, Ethanol is out to lunch but I have never read up on Methanol’s evap attributes.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Intense
04-02-2008, 02:22 AM
Well I will get back to you then! I will do a baseline though because my car is tuned with a different turbo, exhaust, intake and many other things haha so I doubt my car is as clean as stock. I did get a high flow catalytic converter and I retained the charcoal canister and EGR.

phoebeisis
04-02-2008, 07:51 AM
Not much new in performance tuning.Like xcel said it is an old idea.I think methanol,water,and N20 were all used on fighters in WW2. All 3 would cool the charge(heated up by super/turbocharging),and the N20 provided more O2,the methanol provided more fuel.
Methanol is commonly used as racing fuel.
Water/methanol is pretty much just performance mods for motors with high compression or supercharging-.Maybe they will make a comeback once we go to tiny turbo charged motors-as just in case to prevent detonation with poor quality fuel?I kinda doubt it-increased cost and complexity, but who knows.All sorts of ideas are recycled.
Thanks,
Charlie

Ptero
04-03-2008, 06:50 PM
Hi Intense, My dad flew B-29s in WWII and they used methanol-water injection for an extra shot of power on takeoff at max rpms. We used methanol in our alcohol dragsters in the 60s. It was an all-out power enhancement.

For hypermiling you want the leanest burn you can achieve at the lowest rev that you can pull at the lowest speed you can get away with. I don't think this is the friendliest set of circumstances for methanol -- and certainly not for water injection.

Methanol (wood alcohol) is C (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon)H (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen)3OH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxide). Internal combustion engines get their power from the hydrogen and the oxygen, so methanol is providing 4 hydrogens and an oxygen with every molecule. The carbon is junk and is there only for the hydrogens to ride around on. To get power from methanol, you have to provide enough heat to break the hydrogen off the carbon and the oxygen. This is wasted energy compared to using pure hydrogen injection.

With pure hydrogen injection, you're getting your oxygen from the atmosphere and burning it with 80% nitrogen. This creates NOX but no sulfur or carbon pollutants. Pure hydrogen also runs incredibly lean in ICE engines, attaining efficiency numbers surpassing 30% with turbochargers AND superchargers.

This is why you hear that methanol is so clean-burning. Compared with the nightmarish, complex carbon chains of gasoline, methanol is pretty simple with just that one carbon atom tagging along. Still, if you are looking for the very best supplement for gasoline, hydrogen is the hands-down winner.

I'm planning to experiment with hydrogen lean burn in the future. It's probably the best way to break that 100 mpg barrier. We live pretty close to each other. PM me if you want to play.

Intense
04-03-2008, 09:32 PM
Hi Intense, My dad flew B-29s in WWII and they used methanol-water injection for an extra shot of power on takeoff at max rpms. We used methanol in our alcohol dragsters in the 60s. It was an all-out power enhancement.

For hypermiling you want the leanest burn you can achieve at the lowest rev that you can pull at the lowest speed you can get away with. I don't think this is the friendliest set of circumstances for methanol -- and certainly not for water injection.

Methanol (wood alcohol) is C (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon)H (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen)3OH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxide). Internal combustion engines get their power from the hydrogen and the oxygen, so methanol is providing 4 hydrogens and an oxygen with every molecule. The carbon is junk and is there only for the hydrogens to ride around on. To get power from methanol, you have to provide enough heat to break the hydrogen off the carbon and the oxygen. This is wasted energy compared to using pure hydrogen injection.

With pure hydrogen injection, you're getting your oxygen from the atmosphere and burning it with 80% nitrogen. This creates NOX but no sulfur or carbon pollutants. Pure hydrogen also runs incredibly lean in ICE engines, attaining efficiency numbers surpassing 30% with turbochargers AND superchargers.

This is why you hear that methanol is so clean-burning. Compared with the nightmarish, complex carbon chains of gasoline, methanol is pretty simple with just that one carbon atom tagging along. Still, if you are looking for the very best supplement for gasoline, hydrogen is the hands-down winner.

I'm planning to experiment with hydrogen lean burn in the future. It's probably the best way to break that 100 mpg barrier. We live pretty close to each other. PM me if you want to play.

Ya very cool. After some more reading I don't think there would be a great way to trigger the meth to spray at a low RPM, low speed and I would need an incredibly small nozzle to not run out if it was going to spray at basically all times. From what I read quite a few big companies are experimenting with small engine (1.0L or the like) and turbo/super charging or both (twin charging) with direct injection and alcohol injection systems like meth kits you can buy today. This will just create that power on demand situation where it is a fuel sipping 1.0 Liter but when you actually need to go fast the turbo and alcohol injection will kick in and give you the acceleration that is needed.

Anyways thanks for the feedback guys- I was hoping it does some good because tons and tons of high HP cars (w/o cats) have meth systems that could've cleaned it up a bit but it doesn't look like it.

For some good news, my first tank trying these techniques just eye balling the gas meter I am getting 35+ :)

RichXKU
04-06-2008, 12:50 PM
You need to get yourself a scangauge! Equally useful for FE as well as other engine performance indicators.
I was assisting in a meth kit install last night as a matter of fact on someone elses STi. It would be interesting to see your results.

Also a potential welcome to the WRX and Fit owners club of Cleampg.com, or WRXAFOCOCMPG

Good luck!

xcel
04-06-2008, 01:58 PM
Hi Rich:
Also a potential welcome to the WRX and Fit owners club of Cleampg.com, or WRXAFOCOCMPG
___I hope you do not intend on adding that acronym to the glossary :p

___Good Luck

___Wayne

}{ead$hot Zod
04-08-2008, 06:37 PM
I believe that 15%meth/85%water providers the best emissions reduction. But in a diesel you can up to around 50% (negating emissions). If am not mistaken injecting straight water increases hydrocarbon emissions and greater then 15% methanol will increase NOX.

Oldsmobile actually had an option in the 1960's for injecting methanol. It was known as "Rocket Fuel".

Intense
05-02-2008, 04:26 AM
I believe that 15%meth/85%water providers the best emissions reduction. But in a diesel you can up to around 50% (negating emissions). If am not mistaken injecting straight water increases hydrocarbon emissions and greater then 15% methanol will increase NOX.

Oldsmobile actually had an option in the 1960's for injecting methanol. It was known as "Rocket Fuel".

Wow that's pretty interesting. Cool.

hahaha that is cool man I am emulating you. I can't wait to get a Fit! The WRX is getting parked for most of next year. Instant fuel savings.

AbACUZ
05-07-2008, 08:52 PM
glad that this thread has some interesting responces, I am also looking in to alch injection for my SAABaru .

there are progresive injection kits that will change the amount of stuff injected depending on your ecu paramenters , most people use boost , as it is easy to adjust, you can go from 0% to 100% of injector duty cycle on the meth/ alch injected.

Interested to know what setup you have that is giving you this high mpg.



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