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Right now I'm loping along at about 8 words per minute with a keyboard chart in front of me because, somehow, this is the cure fer all that ails me. Why? It's my first (and hopefully not last) day typing with the Dvorak simplified keyboard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard). So far I guess it's alright. I can certainly see that my fingers move less to the outskirts of the keyboard, instead staying mostly in the home row to get the most commonly used letters. But fifteen minutes on I'm still typing this short post!

The point of this exercise is to reduce or eliminate the nagging RSI in my right hand while it's still mild enough that something can be done about it. Even if the solution in to type at 5 words per minute instead of 50+. ;) Has anybody here successfully made the switch (or tried) from QWERTY to Dvorak? Seems like something that might interest a small portion of the readership on a site lite this.

**feverishly looks for typos**

Hi Tim,

I have not tried one, but I have seen one handed qwerty keyboards:

http://store.frogpad.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FrogStore&Product_Code=BLMAC1500L&Category_Code=FrogPads

I changed to a motion controller with a small subset of keys for my left hand and keep my mouse in my right for my CAD work. It took much of the strain off of my right hand.

I've dabbled in the Dvorak mapping and though I like it, I use so many different computers during the day that I've not been willing to switch as it would cause issues when I have to help someone else...

As I recall it took me about 1hr to get back into the high 20wpm range -- I'm normally in the 70+wpm range using Qwerty.

I don't have one but some of the draftsmen I work with really like those motion controllers. My main issue is less specific, but mousing was the first task to give me trouble. For that I got myself an ergoclick (http://www.ergoclick.com/) and a marblemouse trackball. The ergoclick I love, the trackball I only like because I'm still tempted to use my thumb to click. Instead I'm kind of hoping that one of these (http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=086) will make its may to me around birthday time. I have tried it in the store and it is easily the most comfortable pointing device I've tried. Wrists just weren't meant to hold a flat mouse all day!

For a keyboard, my Microsoft natural keyboard was great until the spacebar started to wear out my thumb after many, many years of use. My next board will have the lightest activation pressure possible. I have read good things about the kinesis keyboards but they are a lot of $$$.

Getting better but still typing as slow as can be.

as a graphic designer, who spends far too many hours on the computer, i have had my share of pain and discomfort. i have tried about everything out there and still switch back and forth. that ergoclick looks interesting, and i have an upright mouse. the only problem i have with it is when i am outlinging items in a photo, i can't get precise enough. i use a pen and stylus quite a bit, but that can also cause wrist problems....i think the best solution is retirement....:)

I always thought this looked pretty cool ;)

http://www.atpm.com/7.05/images/dh-keyb.jpg

Datahand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datahand)

As for a Dvorak keyboard... I've wanted to switch, but I havn't because I'm lazy ;) That and I don't have the option of switching the keyboard layout while at work.. not that I type all that much at work to begin with :)

Here's a site that reviewed the data hand Datahand Review (http://www.atpm.com/7.05/datahand.shtml)

I had RSI quite a few years ago, that was actually from a really bad ergo situation-- I was sitting too low. It was actually the condition tennis elbow. That was painful!! At one time, I could barely pick up a grocery bag. I did quite a few things to help myself out. The biggest help I think was a timer that timed me off for a 10 min. break every 15 mins. or so.
I also used a Wacom pad. I tried learning to type one handed and also with Dvorak.
I am a pretty bad typist so it wasn't so successful.

I eventually went to text to speech (this was back in the day when you spoke like this--
you- speak- every- word-very-slowly) and word predictation. The word prediction saved the day for awhile.

--des

I eventually went to text to speech (this was back in the day when you spoke like this--
you- speak- every- word-very-slowly) and word predictation.


Are you still using to speech to text? That option is appealing for use at home (though it probably wouldn't work well in cube land.) I'm curious about how far it has really come since the days of talking like an android.

This whole Dvorak thing has gotten dramatically easier since I started playing with it yesterday. Probably double the proficiency...guess my brain did a little re-wiring overnight. And no pain yet!

I've dabbled with it, but eventually just went back. My typing speeds are acceptable on qwerty (50-60wpm). I'm in software development, so I'm at the computer all day long, but typing speed is not that critical. I use a lot of the strange characters (#$_{}+=/|\><'."1234567890) and not so much writing sentences.

I've had wrist pain, but a split "natural" keyboard took care of that part. Main problem for me is the mouse wrist. That I solved by going left-handed on the mouse. Something about the left position makes me hold it better and I don't get the same wrist strain as on the right hand. ??? whatever, but it works.

I'm like Andrew, pretty proficient with QWERTY. If I was learning to type from the beginning, I would definitely consider Dvorak. But the habit is so ingrained, the learning curve so steep, and a computer so much a part of my work, I can't imagine trying to change.

Just curious: How many hardware manufacturers, especially of laptops, offer it?

A tip for Carpel Tunnel sufferers, I started having problems at my job from holding the mouse too much, so I put my stapler in front of it - just a regular swingline - with the taller staple end toward the keyboard and rest my hand on that. The slight angle is perfect and keeps the hand draped over the mouse at a more natural angle, curving slightly down toward the outside. No more wrist problems!

I'm not aware of any laptop manufacturers who offer Dvorak mapping printed on the keys, but you should be able to change the mapping in software without issue on any computer. A printed key guide might be helpful during the learning phases.

I could make the change but I just don't want to have to switch back and forth between computers when I help others.

Are you still using to speech to text? That option is appealing for use at home (though it probably wouldn't work well in cube land.) I'm curious about how far it has really come since the days of talking like an android.

This whole Dvorak thing has gotten dramatically easier since I started playing with it yesterday. Probably double the proficiency...guess my brain did a little re-wiring overnight. And no pain yet!

I don't use text to speech anymore, actually I meant speech to text. About 5 years ago, which might be a century in this kind of thing I used a program on the Mac called iListen, actually I was a beta tester. It's a pretty neat little program, but I think with a PC the choice is still Dragon Naturally Speaking (a product, that, I don't think comes on the Mac). Anyway, i am not a good candidate for frequent sore throats and allergies.

It has come a long ways, and doesn't have the long period it used to to teach the computer to speak your language and understand what you say. I think it may require some kind of "teaching process" where you read text to it. I got about 80% after training, even though the software (at the time) was about 90%. Think of this in terms of a ten word sentence, if you aren't getting 95%+ you are going to be pretty frustrated! OTOH, dylexics would probably be happier with lower results.

Everything needs some training. About the only thing that doesn't is word prediction. I woudln't necessary recommend it though, as it is very slow, unless the alternatives were basically not using the computer. It is just that slow. But to me it was a godsend at the time.

As for keyboard mapping it can be done on the software level. I think all computers have a free download of this. The hard ware part is a little harder, but if you really want to do this, I think somebody makes cover sheets for the board itself. I think you can buy the Dvorak keyboards and because everything is USB these days they would be useable on any computer.

http://www.fentek-ind.com/dvorak.htm#labels

They have keyboard and labels. You could get a cheaper keyboard and get the labels and convert it via software. I think as I recall that the keyboard was easy (at least for the Mac) once you got it installed, you could change it via a few mouse clicks.



--des

The interesting thing about this little experiment is than I'm completely re-training my hands specifically because I can't look at the keyboard for guidance. Since I never learned to touch type properly my fingers and hands tend to be all over the place on the qwerty board. That, I think, may be one of the contributors to my RSI. So from that perspective it's probably a good thing that my only guide is a printed key chart and strict adherence to the home keys. Maybe if I ever get good at this I'll get the labels as an all-important display of what a geek I must be. ;)

Toward the end of day 2 I'm 99.99% touch typing without the guide. Just veeeeerrrrrryyyyy sssslllllooooowwwwllllyyyyyyy. And I can't simultaneously type and think of something intelligent to say.

I'm at a constant battle between PTS (http://www.massagetoday.com/mpacms/mt/article.php?id=13625) and productivity. About a year ago I switched to a split key keyboard (KFKE87YQ (http://www.google.com/search?q=KFKE87YQ)), and re-trained myself to only sleep on my back instead of on my side. PTS is 90% gone now days and only gives me a tinge of pane when I'm doing real nimble finger work. I struggle with the thought of surgery, but the PTS cure is rather gruesome. I'll live with it for now.

As far as Dvorak, I've found it intreguing, but half my time is spent at a laptop or in a lab. I would have to tote a keyboard around with me to really do the switch.

11011011

PTS doesn't sound like any fun at all. :( I'm glad you've found a solution that keeps it in check!

Ah, I see you have stumbled on one of my *other* most favorite topics. :D

Tim, I don't (or didn't) have RSI but around 4 years ago I made the switch. I don't have any special Dvorak labeled keyboard, but I do it completely by touch and any modern OS will let you remap keys in software.

Before I decided to take the time needed to make the switch I was a pretty fast and fairly accurate QWERTY typist - if I was just copying some text or knew exactly what I needed to type I could hit 80-90 WPM. Overall avg was somewhere around 70.

After learning about the Dvorak layout I wanted to switch for a number of reasons:
- It's more efficient! My hands move a lot less and can generally stay very close to the home row. (Compare what you can type using the letters "asdfghjkl;" to "aoeuidhtns". And what is *semicolon* doing in the home row anyway?? :))
- I was only about 80% touch-typing with QWERTY (despite grade school keyboarding classes) and wanted to bump that up to 100%.
- I knew instinctively that being able to alternate hands more within words would be faster. (Notice that all the vowels are typed with the left hand and the most common consonants are typed with the right?)
- A lot of common 2-letter patterns that aren't alternating are very fast "strums" on the home row with the same hand - ou, au, ai, ei, th, nt, sh, st, sn.

So I printed out a Dvorak layout and started taking 30 minutes a day to literally "get up to speed". It took almost a month before I was able to mostly touch-type with it, and at that point I started taking it to work with me to get in more usage. It was about 4 months before I had matched my old top QWERTY speed, and it has since topped out at about 10% above that. Not the huge speed gains I was hoping for, but what I have noticed is that I can use the keyboard for a *much* longer time without feeling any discomfort. For RSI and someone that has to use a keyboard all day I can't think of anything better.

Of course I tracked my progress in a spreadsheet (:)), and here's an approximate summary of my progress:
1 month: 40WPM looking at my layout (*not* the keyboard), 25WPM "blind"
2 months: 70WPM w/layout, 45WPM "blind"
3 months: 80WPM w/layout, 60WPM "blind"
4 months: 90WPM w/layout, 70WPM "blind"

After 4 months I stopped tracking progress because I was happy with the result, but I have since gone back and checked with the training exercises I was doing and I can now peak at 90WPM "blind".

A word of warning, though - I was hoping to also retain all of my QWERTY speed and be able to switch between them at will, but I use Dvorak so consistently now and prefer it sooooo much that I can only hold some semblence of old QWERTY speed (around 40WPM) if I'm looking at the keyboard. Touch-typing QWERTY anymore has become really difficult.

But again, on any modern OS it's 10 seconds to switch the layout. At work I had a hotkey to instantly switch between layouts for when coworkers needed to use my computer. :)

I'd love to answer any other questions you have. Congrats on getting started with it though! It will be slow for a while, but you should see steady improvement up to your old QWERTY speed at least (and hopefully past it!), and also a huge reduction in your RSI symptoms.

:flag:

...
Hmm, you may have inspired me to give it a try.

Aha! I knew there had to be at least one person on CleanMPG who is fanatical about it. :)

In case anybody was curious, I have managed to stick with it and even get reasonably quick. So after two weeks I'm using Dvorak exclusively at home and at work. Overall I do think that it is an improvement over QWERTY but the keyboard is still holding me back. Yesterday I ordered one of those Goldtouch keyboards from fleabay in hopes that the adjustability will allow me to find a position that works. I switched to a Logitech "Wave" at home and I do like that over the worn-out MS Natural that it replaced, but not quite enough to buy a second to use at work.

I know that Dvorak is a more efficient layout but, like Sean, I work on too many different systems to make the changeover. Besides, I think the fellow that invented it is a tool and I don't want to give him any money via a Dvorak-related purchase.

I had some problems with the beginning of RSI about 6 years ago. Burning sensations in my wrists and elbows, temporary and random digit spasms, etc. Rather than go Dvorak I just went ergonomic. The only M$ products I own are their Natural keyboards, and I like Logitech's Trackman series of thumb trackballs. Between those two I've not experienced an issue in years. The side effect is that I suck at "standard" keyboards now, but I don't have to use them too often and it's still easier than transitioning between QWERTY and Dvorak.

I know that Dvorak is a more efficient layout but, like Sean, I work on too many different systems to make the changeover. Besides, I think the fellow that invented it is a tool and I don't want to give him any money via a Dvorak-related purchase.


You're kidding, right? 'Cause he's been dead since 1975 and so far I haven't seen anything Dvorak-related to purchase except for some keyboard stickers.

You're kidding, right? 'Cause he's been dead since 1975 and so far I haven't seen anything Dvorak-related to purchase except for some keyboard stickers.

What? lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Dvorak

Ahh, now I understand the source of confusion. You have given that Dvorak too much credit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Dvorak

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard

Ohhhhhhh! Holy crap! Every time this tool pops up on Slashdot I always think of the Dvorak keyboard.

Time to change a paradigm. :) Thanks for the correction!

great, thanks a lot....just what I needed. Something else to waste all my time on.

(typed using a dvorak layout on my macbook)

I just received the Gold Touch keyboard that I won for cheap off of ebay. All I can say about it is, wow! Typing on something with key force this light is something that I have never experienced, and find positively refreshing. I think I almost like the light keys more than I like the variable tenting/pronation that is the major selling point. The key layout is a little odd (can't really discern why) but I have to assume that I'll get used to it the same way I got used to the Natural all those years ago.

I'm going to have to ask the boss about getting one of these in the cube tomorrow. One could make a fair argument that a $100 keyboard will be a whole lot cheaper than treatment for RSI on the company's dime plus time lost. (That's not a threat, they're just self-insured.)