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Not to rain on anybody's parade, but I figured I'd chime in with my personal experience. My girlfriend has a 2000 Jetta TDI, and I have to say it hasn't been THAT bad - since I started performing the maintenance on it. The MAF sensor has gone out twice in 110K miles, causing poor running/FE. The first time the dealer charged something like $600 for the repair and the recent one cost me $105 for the part (20 minute job, part has been updated due to frequent failures). Fuel filter went bad causing it to leak diesel all over. Cost me about $15 to replace, but what a mess! Unless you do your own oil (easier than it looks), expect $60 every 5k miles. Windows fell into doors SEVERAL times before they redesigned the parts. Trunk latch mech. broke, I was able to repair with epoxy. Glove box hinge broke (still not fixed). Much of the touch surfaces of the interior have a coating that wears away over time (ugly). Cup holders broke.

All this doesn't sound so bad at 110K, but most of this happened within the first 50K.

Now for the kicker. I did the timing belt on it a few weeks ago, not too bad (found MANY stripped bolts from when the dealer did the first belt for 60k interval). A coworker whose wife has a 2003 Jetta TDI wagon (built in germany as opposed to my gf's mexico jetta), had the timing belt give at 94k miles (this was supposed to be a 100k mi timing belt). So I'm helping him with it, and it's pretty bad. Timing belt is missing teeth, there's valve damage, still waiting to see if there's piston/cylinder damage. Best case senario - $300 for timing belt kit (with all the goodies, water pump, engine mount bolts, etc...), then another ~$950 for the head kit (new head w/cam, vavles, etc...). Here's where it hurts: this is a $6,000+ job at the dealer.

Long story short: If you are willing to become an expert on the ideosyncracies and have the technical know-how, these can be fine autos... but if not, buyer beware. Maintenance can be a doozy...

Now that I've said all that - please understand that this oppinion is based on the 1999.5-2003 TDIs with the ALH motor, not the 2004-2006 with the Pumpe-Duce... and certainly not the upcoming 2009. About those... who knows.

I have no first hand experience, but from what I see / hear, German cars are typically just high maintenance, low availability of parts. Sounds like your particular examples have had exceptionally poor work done by dealers.

As a long time VW owner ('87 Golf - sold at 150K , '96 Passat sold at 190K, '07 Passat- 24k running fine ) - I can attest that VW's require precision care and maintance.

We bought a 2006 Jetta in April of 2006. It now has 25,000 miles on it. The only thing that we have had to replace is the fuel filter. It began it "miss" it highter RPM's. I took it to the dealer and it was a $30 repair.

Our Jetta is a great car. No problems, and it runs like a top.

The only real problem it that it is my wife's car and she doesn't let me drive it much.

Not to rain on anybody's parade, but I figured I'd chime in with my personal experience. My girlfriend has a 2000 Jetta TDI, and I have to say it hasn't been THAT bad - since I started performing the maintenance on it. The MAF sensor has gone out twice in 110K miles, causing poor running/FE. The first time the dealer charged something like $600 for the repair and the recent one cost me $105 for the part (20 minute job, part has been updated due to frequent failures). Fuel filter went bad causing it to leak diesel all over. Cost me about $15 to replace, but what a mess! Unless you do your own oil (easier than it looks), expect $60 every 5k miles. Windows fell into doors SEVERAL times before they redesigned the parts. Trunk latch mech. broke, I was able to repair with epoxy. Glove box hinge broke (still not fixed). Much of the touch surfaces of the interior have a coating that wears away over time (ugly). Cup holders broke.

All this doesn't sound so bad at 110K, but most of this happened within the first 50K.

Now for the kicker. I did the timing belt on it a few weeks ago, not too bad (found MANY stripped bolts from when the dealer did the first belt for 60k interval). A coworker whose wife has a 2003 Jetta TDI wagon (built in germany as opposed to my gf's mexico jetta), had the timing belt give at 94k miles (this was supposed to be a 100k mi timing belt). So I'm helping him with it, and it's pretty bad. Timing belt is missing teeth, there's valve damage, still waiting to see if there's piston/cylinder damage. Best case senario - $300 for timing belt kit (with all the goodies, water pump, engine mount bolts, etc...), then another ~$950 for the head kit (new head w/cam, vavles, etc...). Here's where it hurts: this is a $6,000+ job at the dealer.

Long story short: If you are willing to become an expert on the ideosyncracies and have the technical know-how, these can be fine autos... but if not, buyer beware. Maintenance can be a doozy...

Now that I've said all that - please understand that this oppinion is based on the 1999.5-2003 TDIs with the ALH motor, not the 2004-2006 with the Pumpe-Duce... and certainly not the upcoming 2009. About those... who knows.


If you buy a TDI, join tdiclub and find a local guru. If you read reports on the IV series jetta, 99.5-01 are the worst for engine problems, 02 seems to have repaired those faults and 03 replaced the timing belt and rollers to accomodate 100k intervals and has relatively no problems. I have not had the same problems as the 2000 model listed above.

MAF sensors are known to fail because of the EGR valve clogging with soot. This should be cleaned every 100k miles under the 500 ppm sulfur diesel prior to 10/2007. With 15 ppm ULSD it should not be a problem, but i do not know anyone who has logged 100k miles since 10/2007 so its a theory based on how soot forms.

I have not had a fuel filter leak, but agree its a pain to maintain. Do it yourself if at all possible as Maxx stated, its $15-30 for the parts.

As he mentions they redesigned a lot of internal parts on the jetta by 02-03 models....i have not had anything break except the arm rest latch....$15 to fix.

I had a local MN guru from tdiclub change my Timing belt, pumps, etc. He charged about $300 and the parts were from a Texas company costing $342 shipped. I had it changed at 101K miles with no problems. Never take a VW TDI to the dealer for anything...much less timing belts. They work on 98% gas VW's and 2% diesel VW's....its no wonder they are fouling them up left and right.

I also agree with Maxx, dont buy a TDI for mileage if you cant do light or medium maintenance yourself...or do not trust local mechanics like people from chat boards. The guy who worked on my VW was highly sought after in the Twin Cities, having done over 100 timing belts in 5 years. He was very cool and reasonable....Dealership wanted $1050 for the same $642 worth of work he did.

I'm pretty sure CR backs you up on this-the VWs have poor reliability,and poor QC.I spent 3-4 hours replacing a brake booster on my ancient Suburban yesterday; mechanics EARN THEIR PAY ON MODERN VEHICLES.Nothing is particularly easy to do,and you need to be a contortionist to do even simple part swaps.
With diesel bumping on $4/gal, a used older TDI is strictly for the mechanical enthusiast.If your aim is FE ,buy a used Civic or Corolla instead-fuel cost will be the same and the Civic will be 1/2 the price.Of course,you won't have all the fun of rebuilding/replacing your own head, but you can't have everything.
Charlie
PS-$950 for a new head/valves/cam/springs etc-isn't too bad-seems reasonable even.$6000 at the dealer-sounds about right.
PS-In the not too distant past ,the timing belt on most vehicles was supposed to be replaced at 60,000 miles.Now the manu. say 75,000-90,000-100,000-hmmmm.

Toastblows - I wouldn't be the man I am today without TDIclub.com (I forgot to mention it in the post).

You all are very right. I'm a reformed Vee-Dubber myself (84 GTI, 87 Scirocco 16, 87 Golf, 85 Scirocco). I just wanted everyone out there who is looking forward to the 09 to know what they may-or-may-not be getting themselves into.

Still, it's a LOAD of fun to drive, though!

Hi All:

___Although I have only been to the TDI forums for maybe 10 hours in the past 4 years, I saw a lot of posts on EGR and Window lift issues.

___I have seen the 09’s 2.0 cutaway sitting in front of me at 3 shows in the past 4 months and I swear they are running a timing chain vs. belt this time around. I cannot find a pic but that is what I remember anyway. That chain alone solves about 30% of the problems of the older TDI’s. With all the development time spent on the new 2.0 with the latest HP Piezo injectors, VNT’s and control, I have to believe they will be even more reliable this time around. The 2.0 for Europe is the same as it will be here in the US other than the emissions controls tie in.

___I guess you can say I am hopeful for a much better engineering design and QC coming out of VW this time around given where the rest of the industry has moved the past ten years.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Im convinced as Maxx stated that VW tdi's would be even worse without tdiclub.com. You can get info to fix anything on that site.

I wouldnt worry about EGR problems anymore Xcel. Its literally linked to the crap that valve is suppose to regulate being gummed up because of the high sulphur content in diesel 2007 and previous. If you have cleaned the EGR in the last year or are buying new, I would expect no problems. Beware if buying used if it hasnt been cleaned. It will cost $300-400 to clean at a local shop/guru, or you can try it yourself if you have a ton of tools and a weekend to burn. I chose the $300 route with my guru.

Msn auto's i have found to be one of the best resources for finding problems with models of cars. If you read the jetta tdi 99.5-03 you can see the progression from crap 99.5 - literally bug free 03. :woot:

It's not the TDI engine. It's VW's in general. They have quality control that makes the Big 3 look good :D

It's not the TDI engine. It's VW's in general. They have quality control that makes the Big 3 look good :D

Im not saying VW is quality....Id take a korean made daewoo interior over the mexican jetta ;) ....I have had no problems with my 03 engine/tranny. The dashboard does creak like rubbing 2 styrofoam cups together...but i just shoved some foam between it and the windshield...:cool:

___I guess you can say I am hopeful for a much better engineering design and QC coming out of VW this time around given where the rest of the industry has moved the past ten years.



Ditto. I assumed when I was younger that any car I would buy from there on out would be a VW after my experiences with the all-to-good Scirocco 16v. Disliking VW has been the hardest thing I've ever had to come to terms with.

I've said in these forums before that my 03 Audi A4 was the least reliable car I've owned. Nicest, for sure, but 16 service stops in four years was too much.

That is unfortunate your girlfriend's car has had so many problems. VW's need owners to be on top of routine maintenance and some of the problems come down to the dealer not knowing what they are doing. When was the first MAF failure? The MAF should be covered by a 7 year / 70k mile warranty. Make sure that your girlfriend is using the OEM air filter. The MAF's don't get along with high air (and dirt) flow filters like K&N.

The 5k oil changes make me worry. The price sounds about right but the interval should be 10k miles. If the dealer doesn't know the right intervals, it makes me wonder if they even used the right oil :eek:

Cupholders and possibly the glovebox were redesigned to be stronger. I don't know when, but I know my 2001 has the new style. Online discussion board members seem to think the revised versions are far superior.

My Golf and dealer have been good to me. The car visits the dealer as often as my parents' Toyotas or my brother's Honda, and the mechanics know what they are doing. Good luck with your girlfriend's Jetta.

I'm not badmouthing diesel prices or gas prices. But at this point if i wasnt in a TDI...i probably would have to think hard about it. Gasoline went from $3.02 to $3.12 to $2.99 from last weekend - today. Diesel went from $3.69 to $3.79 to $3.95 from last weekend -when i filled up yesterday. Still cheap to me at 50mpg...but a yaris is looking like a great cheap gas car to own.

I'm not badmouthing diesel prices or gas prices. But at this point if i wasnt in a TDI...i probably would have to think hard about it. Gasoline went from $3.02 to $3.12 to $2.99 from last weekend - today. Diesel went from $3.69 to $3.79 to $3.95 from last weekend -when i filled up yesterday. Still cheap to me at 50mpg...but a yaris is looking like a great cheap gas car to own.

I don't know why, but diesel and gas seem to always eventually switch as to which is the most expensive. If you remember, last summer, diesel was cheaper than gas.

Go figure.

I don't know why, but diesel and gas seem to always eventually switch as to which is the most expensive. If you remember, last summer, diesel was cheaper than gas.

Go figure.

Winter heating oil is the culprit in our country for the seasonal shift. its been cheaper from may-nov the last few years on the D2 fillups against gas, then nov-may more expensive. This year its really rising fast compared to recent history.

There are many reasons for the increase....to many to go over....however i know China and other emerging economies are modeling the europeans with more diesel transport, cars, etc than the U.S. and that is straining world wide diesel refining.

When was the first MAF failure? ... Make sure that your girlfriend is using the OEM air filter.

The 5k oil changes make me worry. The price sounds about right but the interval should be 10k miles. If the dealer doesn't know the right intervals, it makes me wonder if they even used the right oil :eek:


The MAF is a common problem, and yes, it was the OEM filter. Unfortunately, I found a little grit on TOP of the filter when I changed it (at the same time as the MAF).

And about the oil changes, the have been known to put the wrong stuff in, maybe once or twice. But I just did it myself and used Shell Rotella T 5w-40, and I trying to convince her to go 10k, but she's still worried and leaning toward 5k.

I have to take a moment and point out that we will be keeping this car beyond the 200k miles. Don't get me wrong... it's a hassle and a pain in the butt, but it WILL last a million years. If it can turn out 40+ mpg the way SHE drives, god bless it!

My wife's 99 TDI was on a flat bed tow truck 6 time over 70,000 miles. The last straw was the pressure plate coming apart. The told us that we had to buy a new clutch disk, and flywheel also since they were of a new design. That tells me that it was a bad design to begin with.

Louis B

I've had a series of high-mileage (I buy them at 150,000 miles and sell them at 250,000) TDIs over the years and no major problems with any of them. My Audi A4 TDi was the most reliable car I've ever owned.

The MAF can be cleaned very easily - no need to replace it. (But notice that no garage will clean it, they'll replace it instead - they get more money that way). Get hold of circuit cleaning spray from an electronics shop and squirt it onto the sensor. Job done for £ 5 ($10) and 20 minutes.

Obviously if you use a garage which don't know what they're doing with TDi engines you will have problems.

The MAF can be cleaned very easily - no need to replace it.

Been there, done that. Problem is, by the time it's a problem, in my case it's too late. But now it has the newer MAF, so it should be good for the rest of the cars life. I hope.

We bought our TDI 2 months ago knowing full well VW's reliability problems. Heck, we've strongly considered a TDI at least half a dozen times in the last 9 years and backed away each time (until now) for that very reason.

We finally decided to bite the bullet, and found a 2000 Golf TDI that's had all the major stuff already done: turbo replaced a while back and T-belt and intake cleaning done recently. We'll see if parts start falling off, but right now the car is solid as a rock.

As we did when we bought my wife's '83 Volvo Diesel four years ago, we found a competent and reputable diesel mechanic with specific knowledge of the car before buying. We also spent a lot of time on tdiclub getting up to speed on what we need to know about this car and its potential problems and pitfalls. We understand that this car is a lot less of an appliance than our previous Hondas and Subarus and will require more precise attention. At this point I'm reasonably confident that we can give the car what it needs and that this won't turn into a nightmare.

In fact, we like the car so much we've finally gotten over our VW fear and bought a Jetta Wagon too (gas powered unfortunately, but for less than half the price of the same car with the TDI engine). Boy, they sure are great to drive.

--------------

By the way, even with high diesel prices a 42/49mpg TDI will still have (marginally) lower fuel costs than a 32/41mpg Corolla or 30/38mpg Civic.

I suppose it's pretty close if fuel cost is absolutely all you care about in a car, but honestly they're not exactly comparable cars IMO. Impossible to find a base-engine Civic or Corolla as nicely equipped as a TDI. Also, the 4-door sedan Corolla and Civic don't come close to the utility of our 5-door hatch back Golf (let alone a Jetta wagon!). Not even the same type of vehicle. Believe me, as the former owner of three Civic Wagons, I wish they did still make them. The Matrix doesn't count, BTW, because at 30/36mpg the difference in fuel cost vs. a TDI is no longer marginal.

See (WRI), you are the type of person who SHOULD buy one. You did your homework. And it's not that it's that hard to work on them... But it's just not a 'magic bullet' that everyone should just go buy. I would hate for half the regulars on this site to get neck deep in dept trying to maintain one of these.

I was concerned about VW quality when I bought my Golf GL TDI brand new back in 2001. I have to say that it's been the most reliable car I've ever owned, including Toyotas and Nissans. I have 381,000 miles on it right now, and I've had no major problems, and darn few minor ones. I've only seen the CEL once in all the time I've owned it, and that was because of a bad batch of biodiesel I put into it. I've had timing belt issues (no failures or damage) that was caused by a VW repair shop that didn't know what they were doing. The only time it's ever had to be towed was when I ran over a piece of road debris and cracked the oil pan. I've since added an aluminum skid pan.

What I'm saying is that nothing bad has happened that was the fault of the car. Until I hit 350,000 miles, I was still on original everything. Injection pump, suspension including shocks and struts, battery, turbo, nozzles/injectors, clutch, everything. Nothing has fallen off, the interior surfaces are still good and not peeling. Glove box doors and windows are still where they should be. The exterior has no flaws whatsoever in the paint. It still shines and there are NO dents or scratches at all. And no, I don't wax it every weekend. In fact, it's never, ever been waxed or polished. If I were to give it a good interior detailing, you couldn't tell it from a car with less than 100K on it. Click on my sig for pictures.

I have been dumping some money into it lately, however. I've had to replace both cooling fans in the last couple of months. I've also replaced the IP, injectors/nozzles, accessory belt tensioner, rear brake pads and rotors in the last month or two. They all worked, but were showing signs of wearing out. All work was done by gurus from TDIClub.com and NOT at the dealer. I'm still on my original clutch, turbo and even front brake pads/rotors! :eek:

One of the reasons my car has lasted so long is that it's mostly highway driven. I'd say about 85% or even 90% highway in fact. The other reason is that I don't abuse it. I do maintainance by the book using high quality synthetics (usually Delvac 1), and drive by the book. I don't race it, I don't try to see how fast it goes. When I close the hood, doors or glovebox, I close them gently and don't slam them. One of the reasons the glovebox doors break is because they are dampened. Force them close too fast and the hinge will break. Imagine a dampened storm door when you try to force it to close before it wants to. It twists, right? I lower the hood until it latches, then push it down to finish closing it. I don't slam it or just let it drop. When I pull up on the e-brake, I use just enough brake to keep me from rolling. I don't wank up on it as hard as I can. You get the idea.

Of course, I keep it away from the dealer. That's Number 1. Second is to join a place like TDIClub.com or VWVortex.com and learn all you can about your car. Learn about the weak spots and learn how to avoid them. Learn from other people's mistakes in other words. It also helps to drive like a German. Europeans aren't concerned about 0-60 times. They don't care about how much rubber they can lay down. It's more about high speed handling and 50-100 times.

Anyway, not all VW's are crap. Treat them right and they will treat you right. Abuse them and they'll take all of your money away from you in no time at all.

A great car for the educated, but they do take some TLC. I can't remember if I mentioned it here, but my co-worker's wife's TDI had the timing belt go @ 96k miles, leading to a top end replacement. Somehow I got suckered into supervising this/helping. Saved them about $4k.

I have to admit, I'm glad my girlfriend has one. But still, if I wasn't there to work on it, it wouldn't be worth it.

And yes, I am considering trading up to one when the new ones come out, as long as they keep the price reasonable. Oh, and how about offering it in the Rabbit!?

You're absolutely correct, Maxx, about the TLC. I'm also the first to admit that my use is very non-typical. TDI's are good for people who do lots of long-distance commuting or traveling. I always tell people that if they're driving 5 miles in city traffic to get to work, and 5 miles back home again with a stop for eggs and milk on the way, a TDI is probably not for them. In these days of almost $5.00/gallon diesel vs. $4.00 gas, this is even more true. I'm beginning to look more at "cents per mile" as opposed to "miles per gallon" as a way to measure the economy of gas vs. diesel vehicles.

More diesels are on the way. I think the Golf (er, Rabbit...I still can't bring myself to say "Rabbit") will be coming eventually. However, by the time it does, there will be other diesels out there too. Nissan is bringing over their Maxima as a diesel, and you just know that someone is going to be offering a small pickup with a diesel engine. Personally, that is what I'm waiting for. As much as I praise my Golf, I bought it because it was a diesel, not because it was a VW. I would have rather had a small Toyota or Nissan PU, minivan or station wagon if they offered one.

Any VW German made car is junk compared to a Honda end of story!

But again you know what they say whatever melts your butter or floats your boat!

PS-In the not too distant past ,the timing belt on most vehicles was supposed to be replaced at 60,000 miles.Now the manu. say 75,000-90,000-100,000-hmmmm.

The extended timing belt interval is more EPA mandated, than manufacturer. If you look in an owners manual it will often say 60k timing belt required(except in California 100k recomended.)

Any VW German made car is junk compared to a Honda end of story!
As you say, whatever floats your boat. All I know is that my brother's Honda needed at least as much work than my Golf, and it was the only car in our driveway that couldn't be depended on to start below -20 if it wasn't plugged in.

I thought this was interesting, found it on MSN AUTOS. Apparently, most Jettas have Moderate engine problems all the way up through present.


MSN AUTOS, JETTA reliability.

Occasional problems on this vehicle are failures of the Timing Belt and Mass Air Flow (MAF) Sensor (4 cylinder engines only), the Ignition Power Stage (1.8L engine only), the Intake Manifold Air Induction Passages (1.9L engine only), and the Water Pump, gasoline engines only. Problems with the Water Pump can result in engine overheating. The cost to replace the Timing Belt is estimated at $62.00 for parts and $195.00 for labor on the gasoline engines, and $63.00 for parts and $175.50 for labor on diesel engines. The cost to replace the MAF Sensor is estimated at $380.00 for parts and $58.50 for labor. Volkswagen has issued a warranty extension due to the high number of MAF Sensor failures. MAF Sensors are now warranted for 7 years, 70,000 miles on 1999 through 2001 models. The cost to replace the Ignition Power Stage is estimated at $125.00 for parts and $52.00 for labor. The cost to clean the carbon from the Intake Manifold Air Induction Passages is estimated at $11.00 for parts and $169.00 for labor. The cost to replace the Water Pump is estimated at $81.00 for parts and $208.00 for labor. All prices are estimates based on $65.00 per flat rate hour and do not include diagnostic time or any applicable sales tax.

Most of those problems relate to the gas engines (1.8L, 2.0L, VR6), not the TDI's (1.9L). Those prices are also waaaaay off! To do a proper timing belt replacement also involves changing out the tensioner, pullys, and the water pump while it's all apart anyway. The parts alone when bought from a TDI shop (cheaper) is around $300. The dealer usually charges around $1000 for the whole job, sometimes more. Also, the $380 MAF sensor can be had at TDI shops for around $80.

$65/hour labor rates? Yea, right!

$65/hour labor rates? Yea, right!
Until about a year ago, it was for me. Then they upped it to $70. Their work is good so needless to say, I try not to take my car anywhere else.

Until about a year ago, it was for me. Then they upped it to $70. Their work is good so needless to say, I try not to take my car anywhere else.

You're lucky. It's been $100/hour around the Dallas area for the last couple of years. That's why I use TDIClub gurus. They're cheaper and they actually know what they're doing.

Hello Softonm simply look at the ratings for the past 20 years VW has never come close to even touching honda in any way. VW rating are horrible always have been always will be.........
Your Honda must be a lemon and I think it's funny how you say wy honda has had just as much problems as my VW, the thing is your VW is not a lemon it's just a plain old VW.
Just stating facts from the pros and owners that rate these two car makers.

P.S. I am not saying that Hondas are perfect and never have any problems but all around they are No. 1 out of all in most cases

Good Luck!!!!!!!

Scott.

I've owned VW's since 1987


1987 Golf sold at 145,000 miles - no problems - SoCal Driving

1996 Passat Wagon sold at 190,000 miles - no problems - NYC driving

2007 Passat Wagon own at 27,000 miles - no problems - ditto


critical is to maintain car precisely like the owner's manual says - these are awesome cars, but NOT for someone who is likely to skip a tune-up or oil change.

From TDI experience:
- MAF sensor is about ~$120-150 and about 20 minutes to change (that includes cleaning the snow screen). Make sure you get the new style, they don't fail as much (you can tell the difference visually)
- Timing belt + accessories was about ~$430 - including special tools, took too long to do that job (and found some stripped fasteners from the time VW did the job)
- Manifold Air Induction Passages - it gets super gunked up from the egr and robs power/efficiency. Fat pipe cleaner can get that out (if you remove the manifold). Probably a 2 hr job.
- Water pump. Included in proper timing belt job.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: My girlfriend has a 45min-1hr commute and drives like a bat out of hell, and STILL gets 42-45 mpg. She would MAYBE get 29mpg in a gas Jetta. Even with the headaches (once you learn the car, they go away) it's still very much worth it to push diesel!

If I were driving it I'd probably be in the high 50's (mpg), considering what I get out of my Altima.

Perspective: the difference between "great" brands like Honda and "lemon" brands like VW.

If you look in the CR Annual Auto Issue they show a trend line of the number of repairs each brand of vehicle needs (on average) as it ages. VWs, on average, need about twice as many repairs as Hondas. (this excludes scheduled maintenance, which would be similar for both brands). So at worst, VWs are twice as repair prone as Hondas. Not 4-5x as I had previously surmised. A 10 year old Honda -- something I've owned on a number of occasions and had great luck with -- will need the same frequency of repairs as a 5 year old VW. That's unfortunate, but not as horrible as it sounds.

The car to car variation can easily be more than 2:1. In other words, the car to car variation is at least as much as the difference between brands.

Don't get me wrong -- if Honda ever brought us a diesel 5-door Civic (something I remember seeing on the streets of Amsterdam 10 years ago) I'd rather have that than my TDI Golf. But until that day comes, I'm pretty happy getting 43mpg (it would be 48-50mpg if I were the primary driver) and I'll take my chances on reliability.

WriConsult, I think even with mild P&G (NICE-On) you could be getting 60+ MPG (if I'm correct that BioDiesel doesn't drop the mileage). My last tank was 70 MPG and was polluted a few times.

Kirk

Hello Softonm simply look at the ratings for the past 20 years VW has never come close to even touching honda in any way. VW rating are horrible always have been always will be.........
Your Honda must be a lemon and I think it's funny how you say wy honda has had just as much problems as my VW, the thing is your VW is not a lemon it's just a plain old VW.
Just stating facts from the pros and owners that rate these two car makers.

P.S. I am not saying that Hondas are perfect and never have any problems but all around they are No. 1 out of all in most cases

Good Luck!!!!!!!

Scott.
Hi Scott, the thing I find with VW's is that many problems are caused by dealers that don't know how to service the cars. VW dealers have among the lowest satisfaction rates of any manufacturer. If the dealers provided Honda level service, I truly believe that VW's ratings would not be so low. Just 2 weeks ago, I saw a dead Golf TDI on the side of the road. Quick inspection showed that it was extremely likely somebody botched the timing belt replacement and the car will need $1000+ of work to fix that mistake. When incidents like that start to disappear, the ratings should improve.

Your definition of "horrible" seems to be quite large. The new Jetta and Rabbit were rated above average in reliability by Consumer Reports if I remember correctly. Where does "horrible" stop and "not horrible" begin?

I don't think the Honda was a lemon. The dealer did not find anything abnormal about it. For whatever reason, it just didn't get along with cold weather like our other vehicles. My car is just a plain old VW, but you did mention that any VW German made car is junk compared to a Honda. That clearly wasn't the case for me. Maybe I am fortunate that my car was not made in Germany?

My parents have owned four VWs (3 diesels and a gasser) over the last 20 years and have never had any major problems with them. They never go to the dealer, there is a VW guru in our area who works out of his house, gives great rates and knows what he's doing. They have been completely satisfied with all they're VWs, and have ordered one of the 2009 TDI Jetta SportWagens (do you see a trend?).

Kirk

WriConsult, I think even with mild P&G (NICE-On) you could be getting 60+ MPG (if I'm correct that BioDiesel doesn't drop the mileage). My last tank was 70 MPG and was polluted a few times.

KirkI wish! I did get 61.8mpg (on biodiesel) in the Lacey fuel economy challenge a couple months ago, but that was on a mostly highway course doing 45-55 mph. Several things limiting my fuel economy:

Biodiesel has 8% less energy than petrodiesel, so there's about 4mpg.
Most of my driving is in town. I can still beat the 2008 EPA combined on my commute, but I don't think I'd be able to get it up past 50mpg.
Most of my highway driving involves a rear bike rack. FE hit is minimal -- a fraction of what a roof rack would cost me -- but probably still a couple mpg.
As already mentioned, my wife drives the car most of the time. She's learning some of our techniques but isn't at my level. Plus her commute is VERY short (most of her trips are 1-2 miles) so the car often doesn't even warm up. If she's just commuting around in town she gets 38mpg.

Worry not; I love my early 2005 Jetta TDI and I wouldn't trade it for any other car in it's class.
It's interesting that the MAF sensor and fuel filter were mentioned as mine both required changing at 18k. The MAF sensor was covered under warranty and I suspect the filter was a result of some bad diesel. I also suspect the MAF went bad due to the K&N air filter I had recently added but it could have been coincidental. After a bit more research, I discovered diesels don't benefit from the air flow like gas engines so it's back to stock for me. As for the fuel issue, I moved to the UK in 2006 where they have benefited from low sulfur diesel for years and no problems since. It's good to hear the US finally caught on. It does help to know how to do your own maintenance. I purchase my complete maintenance kits from ECS Tuning. Their prices are quite reasonable, especially considering the alternatives here in the UK. I hope the US learns a bit more from the Europeans when it comes to diesels and fuel efficient cars. It's definetly a different mind set over here and not many FSPs!:D

You were wise to go back to the stock filter, Tim. The stock filter can flow way more air than what the engine needs, and the TDI MAF's do seem to have a higher failure rate when used with K&N filters.

Greetings all... Just joined... was recommended this forum by a MINI friend of mine. My daily driver is an '03 TDI wagon. I pretty much agree with what has been said here. If you work on the car yourself, they aren't bad... but if you have to pay, then maybe not.

I've purchased all of the tools to work on the car: TB tools, VAG-COM, etc. plus an increasing collection of more specialized automotive tools... but my g/f and I have 8 cars between the two of us (I'm hoping to sell one soon), so I spend a fair amount of my time wrenching...

I joined this forum looking to possibly increase the mpg I get with the TDI... which has averaged about 45.6 mpg since new and doesn't seem to change much whether I baby the car or beat the snot out of it...

TDIClub is definitely a boon to owning one of these cars... I can honestly say that I probably would not have bought the car otherwise and it definitely ranks as the best brand/model specific forum I've found for any car. These cars are also easy to get parts for with many specific vendors.

That said, I generally do NOT recommend a TDI to most people for the reason stated: maintenance intensive and NOT forgiving of appliance treatment. I bought the car fearing VW reliability and swore that the 3rd time I had to take it to the dealer, the return trip would end at an Acura dealer for a new RSX Type S (my previous car was a 91 Integra that I loved). For better or worse, the car has been mostly reliable and I've replaced nothing but wear items and the closest it gests to a dealer is occasionally when I buy oil.

And at today's diesel prices, I would not buy a diesel again despite my 100+ mile commute. Between fuel and maintenance costs added to the price of the car, it simply wouldn't pay.

Peace,
Ian

That said, I generally do NOT recommend a TDI to most people

Preach on...

Just spent last night installing a driver side power window repair kit - this time the cable just snapped. I don't know if you all heard me sigh last night around 8pm Eastern time.

Oh, did I mention the temp sensor started malfunctioning yesterday? All I have to say is she's lucky she's got me...

I've been lucky in that I've had none of the "common" VW problems...

FWIW, I just ran a cost/mile calc... although I kinda wish I hadn't... :rolleyes:

Since I bought the car in 2003 (special ordered new; waited 10 weeks to get it), I've driven the car 167.2K miles and spent $43,756 in purchase, fuel and maintenance costs for a cost/mile of 26.17 cents. This figure includes monies I've been paid back for work-related mileage (about $1000 I'd guess) but does not include depreciation. With an estimated depreciation of about 50%, the figure jumps to 32.75 cents/mile. :(

Now that the car is finally paid for, I have to keep it for a few more years in order to amoratize the purchase cost. :o

The Puebla, Mexico-built VW's we get here in the States are, in my experience, hit-or-miss. They're either the most rock-solid reliable vehicles you've ever owned, which is their reputation across the pond, or they're of such horrible reliability you'll swear off of them forever. We leased an '00 Passat V6 4motion wagon and an '00 Beetle 1,8t on the same day. The Beetle was the least reliable car we've ever owned, mostly in electrical and plastic trim issues, where the Passat was absolutely, positively, 100% trouble-free in the 5 years we had it.

That said, if you replace the timing belts often on the 1,9 TDi's, they have an excellent reputation, and diesels really are much simpler than gassers so I don't forsee them being overly expensive to keep running...the Passat's 2,0l TDi may be a little more complicated owing to its 16v architecture, but I don't know much of anything about the 2,0's.

Just dropped $3,400.00 into my TDI. 150k service, new exhaust ($800+ for the PART, plus 5 hrs labor), rebuilt injector pump.

Gonna stick it out, though.

seems like the maintenance offsets the mileage benefits :(

I wonder how much of the injector pump's problems are due to the low-sulfur fuels?

I wonder how much of the injector pump's problems are due to the low-sulfur fuels?

Hmm... Nail on the head? Never thought of it, but the sub-standard US diesel we had until what, 2006~7, could have led to this. I don't know if any of you pulled the exhaust manifold, but GEH! The filth that builds up in there - it's just plain unsanitary!

Anyway, I'm glad that this thread is still alive after all these months. Lets people know what they're getting into, and that the TDI is no 'magic bullit.' I tell you what, though - I wish it was.

seems like the maintenance offsets the mileage benefits :(
If you look at it strictly in financial terms, then you're absolutely right. A Civic would have lower TCO, no question about it. Of course the Civic hasn't been available in my beloved 5-door format since 1991, and (and as a Honda loyalist it surprises me to say this) the VW is more fun to drive. Still, for what I now have into my 2000 Golf with 150k on it, I could have bought a brand new Fit -- which IS a 5-door, basically the reincarnation of the Civic Wagons that were collectively the best cars I've ever owned. Sigh.

Of course, buying this car was NOT strictly a financial decision. Most people on these forums save fuel for far greater reasons than just saving some cash, and we are no exception. The fact that Oregon biodiesel is still largely a recycled product is also a big plus in addition to the FE, which is pretty great. We just averaged 48 mpg on a 1000 mile 4th of July trip, with about 30% city driving and A/C on 95% of the time due to temps in the 90s and low 100s. Can't easily get 600+ mile tanks, something we easily do with the VW, out of any Honda that I know of.

i assume that's a 50L tank to go 600 miles? if that's city hypermiling then that's impressive!

anyone FASing with their TDI in the city with good success? diesel can take the FASes yes?

and when you use an engine block heater with the diesel, does it help much?

If you want it to make financial sense, you have to avoid dealerships like the plague. There are plenty of TDI gurus that will do your maintenance for a fraction of the cost VW dealers charge. And if you are a bit mechanically inclined, you can do most yourself, backed by a great community always willing to help you out.

If you want it to make financial sense, you have to avoid dealerships like the plague. There are plenty of TDI gurus that will do your maintenance for a fraction of the cost VW dealers charge. And if you are a bit mechanically inclined, you can do most yourself, backed by a great community always willing to help you out.

I agree with this whole heartedly. I have personally done thousands of dollars worth of work on these cars for hundreds. The parts are still pricey, but not nearly as costly as the service. Oh, and the dealer service techs don't know the first thing about diesels. TDIclub.com is a hugely helpful resource. Haven't come across a problem that hasn't been explained on that site - even down to where to buy a replacement head when the timing belt goes!

i assume that's a 50L tank to go 600 miles? if that's city hypermiling then that's impressive!

anyone FASing with their TDI in the city with good success? diesel can take the FASes yes?

and when you use an engine block heater with the diesel, does it help much?
The tank is about 55L. Diesels can take a FAS. Some worry about turbo cool-down, but if the turbo isn't used much to begin with then cool-down time should be short. I FAS at red lights. The block heater probably helps as much as on any gas engine. The TDI really likes to drink fuel when it's warming up.

I haven't bothered FASing much since the diesel idles so efficiently. Of course I don't drive the car that much anyway -- it's mostly my wife's commuter mobile now. Her commute is 1.5 miles which explains why all-city tanks are in the mid to upper 30s (our 600 mile tanks are mixed or all-highway).

Ours is equipped with a coolant heater. When we take down the Christmas lights I should redeploy the timer to warming her car up from 6-7am and see if that helps the mileage.

Howdy. I just passed 1000 miles on our new 09 Jetta Sportswagen TDI. Our overall average has been about 33 mpg, which isn't bad for mostly city and suburban driving in cold weather. The best trip so far was a 50 mile highway cruise that returned 43mpg. I don't think this car will set any mpg records, but it is one luxurious family machine.

Dan, what techniques are you using? I think you probably have some upward mobility in that car. :) Is it a stick shift?

Just out of curiousity, is your HCH a stick shift?