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This might be the patent on the new Intake Variable Cam Timing (IVCT) that the '09 2.5L is using. I was wondering how this works since Ford hasn't provided much information on the new engine design. The patent says it's an improvement to the Honda design.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6886533.html?highlight=6886533&stemming=on

"Tt is an advantage of the present invention that a system and method according to this invention will allow excellent charge motion without the pumping work associated with a cam switching system.

It is another advantage of the present invention that the need for a charge motion control valve will be eliminated for engines otherwise requiring high charge motion at idle and low-speed operation, or more generally, part load conditions.

It is a further advantage of the present invention that an engine equipped with a valve control system according to the present invention will be capable of not only high specific output but also excellent charge motion at part load conditions."

GaryG

Hi everyone

Hopefully, I be placing my order Monday for the '09 FWD FEH. From what I've read, the 2009 Escape Order Bank is open as of 4/17/08. Scheduling starts on 05/15/2008 with the 2009 MY Job #1 date 06/23/2008.

Ford is going to a new "Fast Turn Orders" (FTO) system and now offers a "limited Hybrid" package that I will order. I'm also going to add the Navigation system as the only other option other than the side steps that is available.

GaryG

Hi everyone

Hopefully, I be placing my order Monday for the '09 FWD FEH. From what I've read, the 2009 Escape Order Bank is open as of 4/17/08. Scheduling starts on 05/15/2008 with the 2009 MY Job #1 date 06/23/2008.

Ford is going to a new "Fast Turn Orders" (FTO) system and now offers a "limited Hybrid" package that I will order. I'm also going to add the Navigation system as the only other option other than the side steps that is available.

GaryG

With the changes Ford is making, I suspect the EV advantage for the 09 will be substantially reduced. Unless the new, smaller pack has significantly lower internal resistance, the combination of a larger ICE with flatter efficiency and smaller HV battery will probably limit MPG gains from going EV to slower speeds. Good for the vast majority of people, but maybe not better for people who have 30MPH roads upon which to hypermile. For the 05 FEH, the "break even" point is at least 35MPH. My guess is that for the 09 it will be less than 30MPH. However, stability control and all the other refinements should make it a much nicer vehicle overall.

I hadn't read about a reduction in HV capacity. What is the 2009 rating for HP / electric / combined?

I hadn't read about a reduction in HV capacity. What is the 2009 rating for HP / electric / combined?

Carl & Steve

According to the '09 Escape Order Guide, Ford kept a 330V HV battery for the '09 FEH. The article was talking mainly about the Fusion/Milan:

"Stepping up voltage allows the powertrain to produce a given output using less current, which reduces resistance losses and increases efficiency. It also allows the manufacturer to use a smaller, lighter battery: the 275V, 5.5Ah, 27 kW peak power NiMH battery pack used in the new Fusion/Milan hybrids features improved cell chemistry, and is more compact, for example, than the 2005-2008 Escape hybrid’s 330V battery pack.

One of the most important attributes of VVC, according to Markaby, is “reducing the cost of the battery.” Previous Escape and Mariner hybrids used a stand-alone air conditioning loop to cool the battery pack during peak operating temperatures: the new powertrain uses only a forced-air ventilation system."

I can only hope Ford did change to the new VVC (variable voltage converter) and eliminated the HV battery A/C in the new '09 FEH:

"Idle-stop and start events are much quicker, and enable greater efficiency with as many as two times the starts and stops in a given driving cycle as the previous system. The quicker engine shut-downs and pre-positioning (for the next start) also reduces O2 build-up in the engine’s catalyst. Decel Fuel Shut-Off (DFSO) mode and electric-only mode have also been expanded.

High-Efficiency DC-DC Converter. The conventional DC-DC converter, which steps down system voltage to run the vehicle’s 12V accessory bus and charge the auxiliary 12V battery, has been redesigned to operate at higher temperatures. The unit remains liquid cooled, and can switch at higher frequencies.

Ford_hybrid_torque
The VVC variably boosts traction battery voltage to operate the motor and generator more efficiently.

High-Efficiency Transaxle. The maximum RPM of the new transaxle’s permanent-magnet synchronous motor-generators has been increased, and a new low-drag transaxle fluid has been formulated. The higher available voltages from the variable-voltage converter allow greater torque at higher speeds. Typically, such voltages also enable a more efficient recuperation of kinetic energy via regenerative braking."
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/02/ford-previews-n.html

Now, if Ford went to the new VVC in the '09 FEH, EV speed could increase and last much longer with the 330V HV battery. Like Jim Carrey said: SOMEBODY STOP ME!

My '09 FWD Limited FEH order was confirmed from Ford Tuesday and I should be one of the first FEH Hypermilers to compare the '05 to the '09 FEH.

GaryG

Go, Gary, Go!

Carl & Steve

Now, if Ford went to the new VVC in the '09 FEH, EV speed could increase and last much longer with the 330V HV battery. Like Jim Carrey said: SOMEBODY STOP ME!

My '09 FWD Limited FEH order was confirmed from Ford Tuesday and I should be one of the first FEH Hypermilers to compare the '05 to the '09 FEH.

GaryG

I think the assumption is that Ford is moving to a 285V battery, for use in both the Fusion Hybrid and the FEH. Net power will be similar because of the other changes.

I think the assumption is that Ford is moving to a 285V battery, for use in both the Fusion Hybrid and the FEH. Net power will be similar because of the other changes.

If the 09 FEH still has the 330V battery and a VVC, the EV efficiency could improve at lower speeds, which could maintain an EV advantage despite the more efficient ICE.

If Gary can generate the steady-state FE data with an 09, we can also see if Ford decided to let the engine lug for max FE, which they clearly didn't do on the 05 FEH. Note that at both 40 MPH and 50 MPH, the ICE is turning 1500 RPM. Ford left some FE on the table at 40 MPH.

I hope Ford didn't change the PIDs on the 09.

I am eyeing the dual-mode, Li-ion, plug-in Saturn Vue that is being dangled in front of us by GM. Sometime in 09, or possibly never..............

If the 09 FEH still has the 330V battery and a VVC, the EV efficiency could improve at lower speeds, which could maintain an EV advantage despite the more efficient ICE.

If Gary can generate the steady-state FE data with an 09, we can also see if Ford decided to let the engine lug for max FE, which they clearly didn't do on the 05 FEH. Note that at both 40 MPH and 50 MPH, the ICE is turning 1500 RPM. Ford left some FE on the table at 40 MPH.

I hope Ford didn't change the PIDs on the 09.

I am eyeing the dual-mode, Li-ion, plug-in Saturn Vue that is being dangled in front of us by GM. Sometime in 09, or possibly never..............

Hi Carl

Looks like the '09 FEH/MMH is changing back to the 10" rear drum brakes in order to get stability control standard on the hybrids.

As far as a steady state speed comparison to the '05 FWD FEH, the '09 drivetrain will need to get broke-in before I could really compare the two. In addition, Florida has now gone E10 and my long term fuel maps are in the process of making the adjustments. The new '09's are going to a wide-band lambda sensor which I'm hoping will speed up ethanol adjustments. This is another quote from the article above:

"High-Efficiency Internal Combustion Engine (ICE). The 2.5L iVCT I-4 engine gets variable valve timing on the intake side (Intake Variable Cam Timing, iVCT), as well as a wide-band lambda sensor in place of a conventional oxygen sensor. The compression ratio in the engine is 12.3:1."

Isn't the Saturn Vue the one that is projected to sell for $48,000?

Had to pay MSRP ($33,725) to order the '09 FWD FEH Limited W/Nav with no dealer fees. Some dealerships are asking $2,000 over MSRP and some are not excepting X-Plan. The dealerships that are accepting X-Plan say they don't know when the order will get processed with Ford. I chose to pay the extra now hoping to get the $3,000 Tax break before it runs out.

As soon as the '09 FEH/MMH workshop manuals start hitting EBay, I'll get a set of those. Maybe some of the PID's will be apart of the PCM/Emission DIA manual. There were many reasons I went with the factory Nav, and the SoC gauge was just a back-up if I have problems with the SGII and SoC.

GaryG

More Good news on the '09 FEH/MMH, I think Ford did change to the 2nd Generation eCVT with the new Variable Voltage Converter. The reason I think this is true is because new road test are reporting higher EV speeds than ever before! SOMEBODY STOP ME!

Here is the article:

"In the hybrid the same improvements that were noticeable when I drove the prototype plug-in Escape in New York in March have been applied to the 2009 production models. The automatic starts and stops are now much smoother than before without the shudder that can be felt in many earlier hybrid models. Additionally, if the battery state of charge is sufficient the Escape can now go up to 40mph in EV mode compared to under 30mph previously."
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/05/15/abg-first-drive-2009-ford-escape-hybrid/

If this guy couldn't get 30mph out of a new '08 FEH, than we might see EV speeds of 52mph like the plug-in prototype. Like I said earlier, if Ford kept the 330V HV battery (which they did), and went to the VVC in the eCVT, EV could be longer and faster in the new '09 FEH/MMH.

GaryG

Gary, I think I may be as excited as you are.

Looks like the 09 FEH is going to be a great improvement and another bold move forward in Ford's dominance in the hybrid SUV market.

Will the FEH remain Ford's most FE vehicle WRT the EPA test? I wonder what the FFH will rate?

Gary, I think I may be as excited as you are.

Looks like the 09 FEH is going to be a great improvement and another bold move forward in Ford's dominance in the hybrid SUV market.

Will the FEH remain Ford's most FE vehicle WRT the EPA test? I wonder what the FFH will rate?

MyPart, I read your post on all the forums and you are smart getting the FWD FEH IMHO. I drove John Dixson's '08 FWD MMH, and it's a great vehicle.

I gambled on the '05 FWD FEH and won big time with rising gas prices... This new improved '09 may help me stay with the increases with ethanol and other BS with the forces of big oil.

I'm a fighter!

GaryG

Gary that's awsome about the new 2009. Keep us posted on when it arrives.

11011011

If this guy couldn't get 30mph out of a new '08 FEH, than we might see EV speeds of 52mph like the plug-in prototype. Like I said earlier, if Ford kept the 330V HV battery (which they did), and went to the VVC in the eCVT, EV could be longer and faster in the new '09 FEH/MMH.

GaryG

Gary,
I believe that there is a hard requirement that the engine function above 43 MPH. I can't remember where I saw that number, but it was an official Ford site IIRC. It has to do with the design of the planetary gear set.

Gary,
I believe that there is a hard requirement that the engine function above 43 MPH. I can't remember where I saw that number, but it was an official Ford site IIRC. It has to do with the design of the planetary gear set.
No, it is just that you have to have enough electrical power available to spin the ICE with minimal "jolt", and the faster you are going the more power that is. In warm-up mode I have been to 50MPH with just the traction motor, but since the ICE was already spinning, there was no power reserve requirement.

No, it is just that you have to have enough electrical power available to spin the ICE with minimal "jolt", and the faster you are going the more power that is. In warm-up mode I have been to 50MPH with just the traction motor, but since the ICE was already spinning, there was no power reserve requirement.

No, it is a requirement that the engine spin above 40 MPH. I'll see if I can find the source. It has nothing to do with jolt.

Doh! I found the reference - in my owner's manual on page 11, the Q & A section.

"Why does my engine never shut down above 40 mph (64 kmph)?"

"The engine is required to turn on above this speed to protect the transaxle hardware."

I have seen another source (somewhere) that explains it in a bit more detail, but drat it, I can't find the reference.

In any case since the transaxle is not changing for 2009, 40 MPH would represent the absolute top speed in EV mode. I personally have been up to 35 MPH in my 2008, and I have read of people doing 39, so I don't think there will be much effective difference in this area for 2009.

It is always nice to review the owner's manual. There is a note that recommends that one should not leave the engine in neutral for long periods of time:

"Neutral: It is not recommended to idle the vehicle in (N) Neutral for extended periods of time because this will discharge your high voltage battery and decrease fuel economy. Also, the engine cannot provide power to the hybrid system in (N) Neutral."

I would assume from the above that if one is in EV mode neutral would allow the battery to discharge more fully than Ford intended. It does make me wonder: if one was in neutral and the SOC falls below Ford minimums, would the engine still come on - even though it cannot charge the battery?

Perhaps someone who uses the neutral glide method could report - do the regenerative brakes still charge the battery while in neutral?

Hi Steve

Carl is well aware of speeds above 40mph in EV conditions and what the manuals says. It was Wayne Gerdes who instructed me to do "N" coasting test years ago in my '05 FWD FEH. Carl, myself and Wayne are well aware of the charging conditions in neutral gliding also.

The rules have changed with new technology and Toyota is leading the pack with speeds above 40mph in EV.

The new '09 FEH/MMH should crush my '05 FWD records and bring Ford close to a Prius average this next year. No, the FEH will not exceed the Prius Hypermilers numbers, but Toyota better be looking out for my numbers in the new '09 FEH.

GaryG

Perhaps someone who uses the neutral glide method could report - do the regenerative brakes still charge the battery while in neutral?

Hi Steve, My experience with the Neutral glide in EV is that the regenerative brakes do not charge the battery, but they do not drain the battery either, unless power is needed for accessories, which is rare for me. I use the technique to extend my time in EV by using no battery when I reach a good glide area.

So, the FEH manual is technically correct IMHO, but with the sgii gives me the info needed to leverage that. I have seen no ill effects of staying in Neutral.

Hope that helps!
- Rob

No, it is a requirement that the engine spin above 40 MPH. I'll see if I can find the source. It has nothing to do with jolt.

Doh! I found the reference - in my owner's manual on page 11, the Q & A section.

"Why does my engine never shut down above 40 mph (64 kmph)?"

"The engine is required to turn on above this speed to protect the transaxle hardware."

I have seen another source (somewhere) that explains it in a bit more detail, but drat it, I can't find the reference.

In any case since the transaxle is not changing for 2009, 40 MPH would represent the absolute top speed in EV mode. I personally have been up to 35 MPH in my 2008, and I have read of people doing 39, so I don't think there will be much effective difference in this area for 2009.

It is always nice to review the owner's manual. There is a note that recommends that one should not leave the engine in neutral for long periods of time:

"Neutral: It is not recommended to idle the vehicle in (N) Neutral for extended periods of time because this will discharge your high voltage battery and decrease fuel economy. Also, the engine cannot provide power to the hybrid system in (N) Neutral."

I would assume from the above that if one is in EV mode neutral would allow the battery to discharge more fully than Ford intended. It does make me wonder: if one was in neutral and the SOC falls below Ford minimums, would the engine still come on - even though it cannot charge the battery?

Perhaps someone who uses the neutral glide method could report - do the regenerative brakes still charge the battery while in neutral?

Your owners manual also states that the FEH can be safely towed at 75MPH with all wheels down. This puts the transaxle in the exact same mode as EV, only without the need to power the traction motor. If the EV limit is to protect the transaxle, why not limit the towing to 40MPH also? The answer is, for EV you will eventually have to turn the ICE over, which requires significant torque from the generator. The more torque required, the harder it is to do this smoothly. For the FEH, due to its large frontal area and high Cd, speeds above 40MPH start to require much more power, and less is left to spin the generator. If the Fusion hybrid still has this artificial limit, I will be extremely disapointed as Ford will have needlessly crippled it with regards to FE, although it wouldn't show up in the EPA testing.

Your owners manual also states that the FEH can be safely towed at 75MPH with all wheels down. This puts the transaxle in the exact same mode as EV, only without the need to power the traction motor. If the EV limit is to protect the transaxle, why not limit the towing to 40MPH also? The answer is, for EV you will eventually have to turn the ICE over, which requires significant torque from the generator. The more torque required, the harder it is to do this smoothly. Fot the FEH, due to its large frontal area and high Cd, speeds above 40MPH start to require much more power, and less is left to spin the generator. If the Fusion hybrid still has this artificial limit, I will be extremely disapointed as Ford will have needlessly crippled it with regards to FE, although it wouldn't show up in the EPA testing.

Good point Carl

Here is another article claiming the '09 FEH is good for speeds of 60km/h (40mpg). This is a change in what Ford put out in the past of 25mph. A 15mph increase from 25mph when we know the '05 - '08 FEH has real numbers around 40mph is a big increase IMO.

"The Escape Hybrid's e-CVT transaxle, which utilizes two electric motor/generator units remains largely unchanged as does the 330-volt nickel metal hydride battery pack, but the Escape Hybrid is now programmed to operate on electric only at speeds up to about 60 km/h."
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/080521.htm

GaryG

Your owners manual also states that the FEH can be safely towed at 75MPH with all wheels down. This puts the transaxle in the exact same mode as EV, only without the need to power the traction motor. If the EV limit is to protect the transaxle, why not limit the towing to 40MPH also? The answer is, for EV you will eventually have to turn the ICE over, which requires significant torque from the generator. The more torque required, the harder it is to do this smoothly. For the FEH, due to its large frontal area and high Cd, speeds above 40MPH start to require much more power, and less is left to spin the generator. If the Fusion hybrid still has this artificial limit, I will be extremely disapointed as Ford will have needlessly crippled it with regards to FE, although it wouldn't show up in the EPA testing.

I am assuming that they tow in neutral, though I've never done anything like that. Neutral is different from EV.

I am assuming that they tow in neutral, though I've never done anything like that. Neutral is different from EV.

That's true Steve, only because you have started the engine and the computer allows power into and out of the eCVT in EV. There are three modes that can happen in EV. 1. The computer will start the engine above ~40mph in any gear including neutral. 2. Possible engine braking when you let off the gas pedal. 3. Regen.

Looking at the possible 3 conditions that would restrict accelerating above 40mph, would be power to start the engine and NVH. Both engine braking and Regen are controlled by the computer like shifting to neutral can stop both. The only way to start the engine after Key-Off FAS in neutral is with the ignition switch. This applies to speeds above 40mph, but often times there is the problem with NVH which Ford has restricted by the automatic start at 40mph. Many of us see the problem as we coast down a hill in neutral and the engine starts as you exceed 40mph. Under acceleration, NVH is much less of a problem under 40mph.

If Ford has increased EV speed, it's because they have increased power with the VVC and reprogrammed the computer to have a much smoother restart at higher speeds IMO. It's already reported that the '09 FEH has a much smoother transition between Gas and EV, and higher EV speeds.

Ford is also making flat tow possible in even the new automatic 6 speed because transmission fluid can be designed to circulate without the need of a fluid pump. I had thought the eCVT had disconnects to prevent the gears and motors from spinning, but these are electrical disconnects and the gears and motors are always spinning with the wheels. The physical disconnect at the engine is at the One-way clutch.

GaryG

That's true Steve, only because you have started the engine and the computer allows power into and out of the eCVT in EV. There are three modes that can happen in EV. 1. The computer will start the engine above ~40mph in any gear including neutral. 2. Possible engine braking when you let off the gas pedal. 3. Regen.

Looking at the possible 3 conditions that would restrict accelerating above 40mph, would be power to start the engine and NVH. Both engine braking and Regen are controlled by the computer like shifting to neutral can stop both. The only way to start the engine after Key-Off FAS in neutral is with the ignition switch. This applies to speeds above 40mph, but often times there is the problem with NVH which Ford has restricted by the automatic start at 40mph. Many of us see the problem as we coast down a hill in neutral and the engine starts as you exceed 40mph. Under acceleration, NVH is much less of a problem under 40mph.

If Ford has increased EV speed, it's because they have increased power with the VVC and reprogrammed the computer to have a much smoother restart at higher speeds IMO. It's already reported that the '09 FEH has a much smoother transition between Gas and EV, and higher EV speeds.

Ford is also making flat tow possible in even the new automatic 6 speed because transmission fluid can be designed to circulate without the need of a fluid pump. I had thought the eCVT had disconnects to prevent the gears and motors from spinning, but these are electrical disconnects and the gears and motors are always spinning with the wheels. The physical disconnect at the engine is at the One-way clutch.

GaryG

Thanks for the info Gary, but one thing is still puzzling me. I can easily get above 25 MPH in EV on my 2008 (IIRC my best is around 35), and I have read that others have gone to 38 or 39 MPH in EV. So perhaps they mean that the 2009 will more easily go to 40 MPH in ev?

Also, I am sure that I saw an article that indicated that there was a mechanical reason (in the eCVT) for the engine to run above 40 MPH. It had to do with protecting the transmission, but drat if I can find the URL now. I saw it when I was researching the FEH for my purchase a couple of months ago.

Thanks for the info Gary, but one thing is still puzzling me. I can easily get above 25 MPH in EV on my 2008 (IIRC my best is around 35), and I have read that others have gone to 38 or 39 MPH in EV. So perhaps they mean that the 2009 will more easily go to 40 MPH in ev?

Also, I am sure that I saw an article that indicated that there was a mechanical reason (in the eCVT) for the engine to run above 40 MPH. It had to do with protecting the transmission, but drat if I can find the URL now. I saw it when I was researching the FEH for my purchase a couple of months ago.
Perhaps you're thinking of the Prius, which needs the ICE to run to avoid overspeeding the generator. The FEH has a much higher limit on generator speed, as evidenced by the 75MPH towing capability. To the transaxle, R,N,D, and L are the same as the planetary gear set is always turning. Perhaps one could argue that limiting the EV speed protects the generator by limiting the amount of torque it needs to spin the ICE over. And since the generator is integral to the eCVT, that is tantamount to "protecting" the transaxle.

Perhaps you're thinking of the Prius, which needs the ICE to run to avoid overspeeding the generator. The FEH has a much higher limit on generator speed, as evidenced by the 75MPH towing capability. To the transaxle, R,N,D, and L are the same as the planetary gear set is always turning. Perhaps one could argue that limiting the EV speed protects the generator by limiting the amount of torque it needs to spin the ICE over. And since the generator is integral to the eCVT, that is tantamount to "protecting" the transaxle.

There is no question the FEH can be physically started with the motor generator above 60mph with all the wheels and gears turning in neutral. However, can the HV battery supply enough voltage for the traction motor torque over 40mph in EV and still start the engine smoothly? Ford set that limit more than likely for a number of reasons. We know the engine can be started at 40mph with ~39.5% SoC in neutral without a load. But I notice the faster I'm driving EV in "D", the battery SoC will not drop that low before the computer kicks the engine on. I'm not an Electrical Engineer like Carl, but I think it's due to the limitations of the Battery and the present voltage converter.

Steve, when you first drove your '08, more than likely you couldn't get to much above 30mph in EV with the tires at 35psi. I was having a hard time with John Dixson's new '08 FWD FEH holding 30mph with 35psi. I can say it took my '05 FWD 15,000 miles to peak as far as EV speed. These people that are reporting speeds of ~40mph are testing a new FEH, so you have to compare what they reported on the '08 to the '09. The article did in fact compare the '08 at 30mph and the '09 at 40mph. There's a lot more wind drag at 40mph, but still over a 25% increase in EV speed is being reported on the '09 FWD FEH. No increase in EPA MPG ratings are being reported.

I think the Prius is the only hybrid Toyota limited to ~40mph EV speeds and that is going to change in March '09 with the all new 2010 model. I've heard 62mph will be the new EV speed for the Prius.

GaryG

Here is another article on the '09 FEH EV speed increase:

"Another tweak for 2009 was increasing the electric-only mode to a healthy 40 mph (65 km/h). With a light foot during acceleration or while at a constant cruising speed, the 2009 Escape Hybrid could get most people to work within city limits on battery alone."
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jb/2009-ford-escape.php

GaryG

Here is another article on the '09 FEH EV speed increase:

"Another tweak for 2009 was increasing the electric-only mode to a healthy 40 mph (65 km/h). With a light foot during acceleration or while at a constant cruising speed, the 2009 Escape Hybrid could get most people to work within city limits on battery alone."
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jb/2009-ford-escape.php

GaryG
Gary-
Time will tell, but to me that is just stupid. The battery will still deplete; the question is how far it will go on EV. I suspect the answer is less than 2 miles. Being able to "get to work on battery alone" has nothing to do with speed, it involves battery capacity (unchanged) and discharge rates (perhaps better). My understanding is that even the Prius won't go more than a couple of miles in EV mode, and it is considerably lighter than the FEH.

...the 2009 Escape Hybrid could get most people to work within city limits on battery alone."GaryG

Gary-
Time will tell, but to me that is just stupid. The battery will still deplete; the question is how far it will go on EV. I suspect the answer is less than 2 miles. Being able to "get to work on battery alone" has nothing to do with speed, it involves battery capacity (unchanged) and discharge rates (perhaps better). My understanding is that even the Prius won't go more than a couple of miles in EV mode, and it is considerably lighter than the FEH.

I agree, the writer must not be familiar with the battery discharge profile. He didn't substantiate it with any facts, like "so I did this on my 12 mile commute yesterday", so it seems like a personal conclusion without experimentation.

I am jealous though that Gary will be EVing up to 40+ mph soon :D

Gary-
Time will tell, but to me that is just stupid. The battery will still deplete; the question is how far it will go on EV. I suspect the answer is less than 2 miles. Being able to "get to work on battery alone" has nothing to do with speed, it involves battery capacity (unchanged) and discharge rates (perhaps better). My understanding is that even the Prius won't go more than a couple of miles in EV mode, and it is considerably lighter than the FEH.

When I was doing research (still am) last year, I started hoping Ford would go with some kind of Buck Boost Converter (BBC) like Toyota did in 2004. The Ford Variable Voltage Converter (VVC) may be even better than the BBC, who knows. The great thing Ford did in the '09 FEH/MMH, is they retained the 330V battery. The VVC will boost both output of the battery and charging of the battery which will make it much more efficient. In other words, there will be much less conversion losses to and from the battery now according to Ford.

It's not only the increased speed that I'm excited about, it's the efficiency improvements with the new converter. In addition, the battery will not heat-up near as bad and that will also increase efficiency. Here in Florida, that will make a big difference in battery efficiency for me. I can tell when I run the cabin A/C in hot weather, the performance of the battery is better than if the Traction Battery Control Module (TBCM) waits till the battery temp get to high to request the compressor on.

While the battery capacity hasn't changed, the battery capacity should last much longer in EV. Most drivers do not take advantage of EV mode like I do. Therefore, the EPA and Ford didn't make a change in the EPA ratings. I've found the best mileage in the FEH can be found between 25 - 35mph where I averaged 70.3mpg when my pack was still fresh. The higher EV speed will not change that for me, but the improved efficiency of the VVC could really boost that 70.3mpg average. Hopefully, we will all know in a few months.

GaryG

Another article on the '09 FEH/MMH revised hybrid powertrain being the same in the '09 Fusion and Milan. The Fusion and Milan will have a smaller 275V battery according to the press release Feb. 14 2008. The hope of the new VVC in the '09 FEH continues!

"The 2009 Escape goes on sale this June and its Mercury twin, the Mariner, will get the same upgrades. We will also see the new 2.5-liter four-cylinder engine and revised hybrid powertrain in the 2009 Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan, which will be Ford's first sedans with a hybrid option."
http://automobile.automotive.com/67589/0805-2009-ford-escape/index.html

GaryG

Now that it appears that the '09 FEH/MMH eCVT has the new Variable Voltage Converter (VVC), I thought it would be nice that new buyers understand what that means. Toyota changed in 2004 to the Buck-Boost Converter I've posted about. This link will help you understand why the '09 FEH/MMH has increased in EV speed and efficiency.
http://ecow.engr.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/getbig/ece/491/lorenz/priuspower/toyotapriu/evs20_priuspowerconverter_5c_okamura.pdf

EPA ratings are the same, but real mileage is going up, up, up!

GaryG

It appears that the plug-in FEH has the same VVC and allows up to 40mph in EV, the same reported increase in speed as the '09 FEH.

Found yet another article that verifies the increase in EV speeds:

"The shudder that used to occur during engine start stop has now been eliminated providing much more seamless transitions between electric and hybrid/internal combustion operation. The maximum speed for electric only operation has also been increased from less than 30mph up to 40mph."
http://www.greenfuelsforecast.com/ArticleDetails.php?articleID=508

GaryG

It appears that the plug-in FEH has the same VVC and allows up to 40mph in EV, the same reported increase in speed as the '09 FEH.

Found yet another article that verifies the increase in EV speeds:

"The shudder that used to occur during engine start stop has now been eliminated providing much more seamless transitions between electric and hybrid/internal combustion operation. The maximum speed for electric only operation has also been increased from less than 30mph up to 40mph."
http://www.greenfuelsforecast.com/ArticleDetails.php?articleID=508

GaryG

I had already seen the article. The thing that interests me is that I can easily get to about 29 - 30 MPH on my 2008 FEH, on a flat surface, so I don't see that 25 as a hard limit. With any downslope at all I can get up to about 38-39 before I have to worry about the ICE coming on, which inevitably happens at 40 mph. And I think we can agree that the 40 MPH limit is still going to exist on the 2009.

I agree that with the more efficient use of electricity the hypermilers may be able to get more out of the system - I don't see how there could be any other outcome. However I see this as more of a longer lasting charge due to the new electric features rather than any increase in effective EV. Maybe the 2009 will go to 38 on a flat surface. I'm sure you'll keep us informed!

But for those shopping now, is it really worth the extra 3K that the new ones cost, if a 2008 can be found?

I had already seen the article. The thing that interests me is that I can easily get to about 29 - 30 MPH on my 2008 FEH, on a flat surface, so I don't see that 25 as a hard limit. With any downslope at all I can get up to about 38-39 before I have to worry about the ICE coming on, which inevitably happens at 40 mph. And I think we can agree that the 40 MPH limit is still going to exist on the 2009.

I agree that with the more efficient use of electricity the hypermilers may be able to get more out of the system - I don't see how there could be any other outcome. However I see this as more of a longer lasting charge due to the new electric features rather than any increase in effective EV. Maybe the 2009 will go to 38 on a flat surface. I'm sure you'll keep us informed!

But for those shopping now, is it really worth the extra 3K that the new ones cost, if a 2008 can be found?

Steve, I disagree with you based on my experience driving the '05 FWD FEH and the '08 FWD FEH. The 40mph limit is set by the PCM/ECU in the '05, '06, '07 as well as the '08 FEH/MMH as a threshold. They all will restart the engine after you exceed ~40mph in EV. Even if you exceed this limit coasting down a hill in neutral in EV, the computer will start the engine every time. When your '08 has about 20,000 miles, and if your tires are above 44psi, you should be able to set your cruise control at 35mph in EV with no headwind on flat roads, unless you went with the AWD. I can set my cruise control at 38mph in EV with a little tailwind today.

In articles on the plug-in FEH, I read Ford increased EV speed from 25mph to 40mph. Now, we all know as the FEH/MMH breaks-in, we can exceed the 25mph limit, I know I did the first day I drove my new '05 with less than 12 miles on the OD. After talking to a Ford hybrid engineer over a year ago, he said he was waiting for the '09 FEH and wasn't purchasing the '08 FEH. I Based this on the reported EV speed increase in four articles and Sherif Markaby, Global Core Engineer for hybrids at Ford Motor Company. Markaby's comments about the VVC in the '09 FEH, are being confirmed. Also, some articles on the plug-in FEH indicated speeds of 52mph, but now some road test of the plug-in are now reporting only 40mph, the same increase as the '09 FEH production model road test.

If you use the released claims Ford used of 25mph EV on the '05 - '08 FEH/MMH and compare the threshold EV speed of ~40mph when we know the engine will restart, we know there is a 15mph difference. We now know real EV speed for the '05 - '08 will reach within 2mph of the threshold speed on flat roads after broke-in. There is no reason to think that a road test of the new '09 FWD FEH getting up to 40mph in EV when new, will have the ability to exceed 50mph after broke-in. Markaby confirmed an increase in electric motor RPM for the four '09 Hybrid models - Fusion, Milan, FEH, and MMH. So no Steve, the 40mph limit is not restricted to the '09 models unless Ford has programmed the computers to restrict it for no reason. You can bet Ford is trying to keep up with Toyota Hybrids who have exceeded the EV threshold to 62mph. Toyota will increase the EV threshold in the Prius from 40mph to 62mph in the 2010 model I'm waiting on for my wife now.

Nothing wrong with the '08 FEH/MMH, but for the most part dealers want sticker for those left. When I ordered my '09, my local dealer had two loaded FEH's on their lot. I had to tell them I just was not interested in an '08 or I would have bought one before now. Clearly hearing about the '09 improvements is what made me order one. On other forums where people couldn't find or had their '08 canceled, I told them to first consider ordering the '09. A few people are very excited they now have a '09 on order like me. Cougar, one member had his '08 FEH order canceled and got to order the '09 at X-Plan, he's very happy. I waited three years for the first '05 FEH to come out and I'm waiting for the Generation 3 Prius because of the increased EV speed as well as other improvements.

GaryG

Hi Gary:

___Not to lower your expectations but I was taking with Greg Frunette (I have to look at my notes to verify I spelled his name correctly – Sorry if I did not Greg) who is head of the ZEV program at Ford and he told me about 5 or 6 weeks ago there was no increase over and above 41 mph for the PHEV prototypes being designed and put into place with the California utility. The original 41 mph limitation was for starting torque because when I asked about MG1 protection in the 06 way back in 05, the power train engineers at the Hybrid Experience looked at me like I had three heads or something?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Steve, I disagree with you based on my experience driving the '05 FWD FEH and the '08 FWD FEH. The 40mph limit is set by the PCM/ECU in the '05, '06, '07 as well as the '08 FEH/MMH as a threshold. They all will restart the engine after you exceed ~40mph in EV.
GaryG

Gary,
Well, I disagree with your assessment, based on my study of the Ford technology and implementation. I think that Ford probably hasn't changed the 40 MPH limit on running without spinning the engine. From comments I've seen on this site and elsewhere, it has to do with the transmission being jerked into action above those speeds, or so I've read, and I think Ford would have advertised a major change to the eCVT programming.

But it is always possible you are correct. We will see when people start hypermiling the 2009.

As it happens, I do own the AWD.

Wayne and Steve, more confirmation on increased EV speed. It would be odd that Ford could increase EV speed on a new FEH/MMH without increasing the threshold speed at all, but I guess it could happen. Looks like this reporter knows something about hypermiling cause that 60 mpg number sure sounds familiar.

"Every chance it gets, the Escape seamlessly shuts the gas engine down and runs off batteries. Like all Hybrids, mileage depends upon how you drive. If you're ready for the possibility of the person behind you exiting their vehicle, running up and bashing your skull in with a mallet (I love LA), very gentle throttle inputs will keep the gas motor at bay up to 40 mph. Even the Lexus LS600hL can only pull off that trick up to 30 mph. When no other cars are present you can hypermile your gas - electric Ford to 60 mpg around town."
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2009-ford-escape-hybrid-review/

Wow, wonder what this baby will do around my town in Jupiter FL.:eek:

GaryG

You know hypermiling has more than hit the streets when a new car review talks about the P&G technique. Here is yet another article on the new '09 FEH/MMH's EV speed.

"The ride
Ease into the driver’s seat covered with eco-fabric (made from 100 percent recycled material), turn the key and enjoy the silence. This is the beauty of the hybrid. And for 2009, this silence from the electric motor is possible up to a speed of 40 mph – up from 30 mph for 2008 models – before the gas engine kicks in. And when it does, you’ll barely notice it. Recalibration of the powertrain's software provides a near imperceptible transition between gas engine and electric motor. However, driving without triggering the gas engine takes some practice and a bit of geographic luck (few hills, no jack rabbit starts, and a battery with at least a 75 percent charge).

During our test drive, we were easily able to get up to 30 mph in electric mode before triggering the gas engine. It’s important to mention that the 2009 Escape Hybrid’s ability to operate in electric mode in speeds up to 40 mph doesn’t mean that it always will. It just means that if you have enough battery charge and are under the right conditions, the gas engine might turn off and operate with the energy stored in the battery.

But this change has another benefit: it makes the Escape a prime candidate for the pulse and glide driving technique. When this compact SUV hits the streets in August, hyper milers will be blogging up a storm bragging about their insanely high mpg records."
http://www.autousa.com/content/2009-ford-escape-hybrid.jsp

Somebody Stop Me!

GaryG

You know hypermiling has more than hit the streets when a new car review talks about the P&G technique. Here is yet another article on the new '09 FEH/MMH's EV speed.

"The ride
Ease into the driver’s seat covered with eco-fabric (made from 100 percent recycled material), turn the key and enjoy the silence. This is the beauty of the hybrid. And for 2009, this silence from the electric motor is possible up to a speed of 40 mph – up from 30 mph for 2008 models – before the gas engine kicks in. And when it does, you’ll barely notice it. Recalibration of the powertrain's software provides a near imperceptible transition between gas engine and electric motor. However, driving without triggering the gas engine takes some practice and a bit of geographic luck (few hills, no jack rabbit starts, and a battery with at least a 75 percent charge).

During our test drive, we were easily able to get up to 30 mph in electric mode before triggering the gas engine. It’s important to mention that the 2009 Escape Hybrid’s ability to operate in electric mode in speeds up to 40 mph doesn’t mean that it always will. It just means that if you have enough battery charge and are under the right conditions, the gas engine might turn off and operate with the energy stored in the battery.

But this change has another benefit: it makes the Escape a prime candidate for the pulse and glide driving technique. When this compact SUV hits the streets in August, hyper milers will be blogging up a storm bragging about their insanely high mpg records."
http://www.autousa.com/content/2009-ford-escape-hybrid.jsp

Somebody Stop Me!

GaryG

"...turn the key and enjoy the silence." This sort of implies that you can start in EV, doesn't it? The fact that they could only get up to 30 in EV I think implies that the 40 MPH is a hard limit again, purely for NVH reasons. But, I guess we'll see.....

"...turn the key and enjoy the silence." This sort of implies that you can start in EV, doesn't it? The fact that they could only get up to 30 in EV I think implies that the 40 MPH is a hard limit again, purely for NVH reasons. But, I gues we'll see.....

Your right Carl about what these reviews imply, but never have I seen any article in the past even talk about a 40mph EV speed. I have never been able to reach "40"mpg from a dead stop on the perfectly flat roads I drive here in Florida. These are not experienced hypermilers giving these opinions, but they also are smart enough to know a big change has been made from the '08 FEH/MMH. None of these people have talked about the EV threshold, so the first hypermilers who fully understand what I'm talking about will be the ones to report the limitations. If all I have is a VVC that will allow me longer and more efficient high voltage DC to AC conversion, that's worth it to me.

Nothing matters but the bottom line with how many miles you get on a every tank of gas.

Here is a study the big 3 and the US Gov are working on. At the end, much of the study is testing the Prius and Camary hybrid system. You get a sense on future increases in EV speeds and overcoming some EV restrictions.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/program/2007_apeem_report.pdf

GaryG