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What happens when a Honda Civic Diesel travels cross country with a Toyota Prius for the 1908 Centennial Race across the continent? Hybrid vs. Diesel shootout … (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=75393)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/reenactment2.jpgWayne Gerdes - CleanMPG (www.cleanmpg.com) - March 5, 2008

HCH-II - Prius - iCDTi: The High-tech Horseless Carriages waiting for launch …

From Chicago to San Francisco following the Hypermilers Re-enact the 1908 centennial of NY to San Francisco Race (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8727) drive, one of the best Diesels (Honda Civic iCDTi) on the planet will be running side by side with one of the best Hybrids (Toyota Prius-II) available anywhere. With gasoline and diesel prices what they are, what can these two vehicles provide in terms of fuel efficiency? Just as the HCH-I and II succeeded in accomplishing just three weeks ago, the Prius and Civic Diesel will be driven in a 24/7 schedule with six team members swapping at the various waypoints while crossing the continent in winter. With today’s modern vehicle amenities, even while driving around the clock, we will only experience a fraction of the pains and pitfalls of those experienced by the original Thomas Flyer team 100 years ago.

From the first reenactment, the historic 1908 Automobile Race set the stage for the many automotive successes seen in the twentieth century. Using the most advanced fuel efficient autos in production today, this centennial tribute intends to promote fuel conservation, lower emissions, and superior auto technology for the twenty-first century. Typical March winter weather and road conditions are expected to present numerous challenges. Additionally, much of the original 1908 route is less than optimal for fuel efficiency; however the drivers expect to take these hurdles in stride in their quest for outstanding mileage.

The drivers taking up the challenge include:

Jud Engels from Ft. Thomas, KY
Ken and Ken’s son Sean Gordon from Elk Grove Village, IL
Andrew McGuckin from Longview, TX
Stephen Lake from Bensenville, IL
Wayne Gerdes from Wadsworth, IL

1908 centennial Automobile Race Reenactment - NY City to San Francisco, CA

Waypoint #|Location
#1|Chicago, IL
#2|Rochelle, IL
#3|Clarence, IA
#4|Belle Plaine, IA
#5|Ogden, IA
#6|Logan, IA
#7|Omaha, NE
#8|Columbus, NE
#9|Lexington, NE
#10|Sidney, NE
#11|Cheyenne, WY
#12|Laramie, WY
#13|Walcott, WY
#14|Rawlins, WY
#15|Granger, WY
#16|Evanston, WY
#17|Ely, NV
#18|Tonopah, NV
#19|Ballarat, CA – Ghost Town
#20|Bakersfield, CA
#21|Los Banos, CA
#22|San Francisco, CA

What the Prius and iCDTi are up against ;)

2005 Honda Civic Hybrid – FE data and Driver Swap Locations

Town/City|Driver|Temp(F)|Trip A MPG|Trip A Odo|Trip B MPG|Trip B Odo|Odometer|Fuel consumed (gal)|Actual MPG|Notes
Chicago, IL|xxx|xx|xx.x|xxx.x|xx.x|xxx.x|xx,xxx|xx.xxx|xx.xx|Top Off.
Sidney, NE|All|21|62.8|105.3|62.8|896.9|70,990|16.352|54.85|Fill – 896.9 miles/16.352 gal.
Tonopah, NV|All|40|59.8|170.1|62.8|951.5|71,942|14.984|63.5|Fill – 951.5 miles/14.984 gal.
San Francisco, CA|xxx|46|60.5|204.9|63.2|689.2|72,631|11.447|60.21|Fill – 689.2 miles/11.447 gal.
Total Miles and Fuel consumed from Chicago to San Francisco
2,537 miles/42.783 gal. = 59.29 mpg.

2008 Honda Civic Hybrid – FE data and Driver Swap Locations

Town/City|Driver|Temp(F)|Trip A MPG|Trip A Odo|Trip B MPG|Trip B Odo|Odometer|Fuel consumed (gal)|Actual MPG|Notes
Toledo, OH|xxx|12|53.7|090.0|51.9|654.7|6,414|12.085|54.17|Top Off
Logan, IA|xxx|28|57.8|095.2|54.2|741.6|7,155|13.566|54.67|Fill – 741.6 miles/13.566 gal.
Wamsutter, WY|All|-3|58.5|137.8|53.7|705.9|7,861|12.554|56.23|Fill – 705.9 miles/12.554 gal.
Tonopah, NV|xxx|40|56.7|167.0|52.7|654.0|8,515|12.409|52.70|Fill – 654.0 miles/12.409 gal.
San Francisco, CA|xxx|46|TBD|TBD|TBD|TBD|TBD|11.284|55.83|Fill – 689.2 miles/11.447 gal.
Total Miles and Fuel consumed from Toledo to San Francisco 2,800.7 miles/49.976 gal. = 56.04 mpg.

Along with the Transcontinental – 1908 Centennial Race-II, Hypermiling clinics will be held in Los Angeles on Saturday March 8th from approximately 08:30 AM through early afternoon for both the Discovery Channel HD and anyone that may want to take on a clinic with fellow CleanMPG members along with the camaraderie that comes from a meet and greet no matter the location :)

Tentative Clinic location shown below.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/569/Clinic_Location.jpg
From the Corner of Adams blvd. and Figueroa, Los Angeles, CA to the corner of Adams Blvd. and Arlington, as loin Los Angeles, CA.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/HCH-II_vs_Prius_vs_iCDTi.jpg
HCH-II, Toyota Prius, and i-CDTi

If Wayne is driving the iCDTi and getting the insanely high mpg numbers he got when he reviewed the car I don't think it will be close at all. :)

:driveby1:

I can't wait to see the results. Good luck to all.

So who's driving what?

Wayne just gave me a call -- he's in the Civic but not at the wheel as I heard him giving instructions to an unknown driver on clutch control. ;)

At roughly 60mi out the Civic is boasting a 69mpg average while the Prius is in hot pursuit at 59mpg.

I'm sure further updates will be forthcoming at odd intervals. :)

GO CIVIC!!

Uh... did I just type that? :o

How on Earth did he manage to procure a Civic Diesel? I'm obviously not sleeping with the right people :D

Jeff

I would also be interested on your impression on the Civic 5 door hatch since we are only allowed the sedan here in the States.

I want one of these in the worst way. Let's hope today's fuel prices give Honda a kick in the pants to get this car over here.

I want one of these in the worst way. Let's hope today's fuel prices give Honda a kick in the pants to get this car over here.

You aren't the only one with that wish around here! I'm pretty sure I'd be getting very similar numbers to what the Insight is showing me now on my typical routes -- and it would be able to offer a back seat, too!

It'll be cool to see Wayne on a Discovery Channel TV program. Lot's of people are now realizing high gas prices are here to stay, and are very interested in hypermiling. We could all learn something from Wayne in that regard.

Good luck on the trip, and the cause!

Harry

Hi All,

Well, the Civic Diesel should get better volume mileage, as well as fuel energy mileage. Because this is a mostly highway route the Diesel has the advantage. The Prius is good, but it does not have any highway specific advantage (like a turbo charger) yet, and it has a highway penalty in the gear box (to give it the advantage in traffic). HSD can help its highway economy by dropping engine RPM to lower pumping losses. But the Atkinson cycle still has approx. a 5 % engine efficiency hit, and the Civic should have better gear box efficiency too. Along with the Turbo recouping exhaust energy to help overcome the pumping losses, and the Civic should do better.

Good Luck on the drive.

Oh boy, watch out. These guys are gonna get assassinated by the big oil companies so nobody finds out that a diesel can get better mpg than a hybrid.

Fort Thomas? That's like...ten minutes from where I live. Who's in it (what screen name?)

Wikapedia on Route 66 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_66)

Documentary on the TV Series (1960-1964)
http://www.youtube.com/v/m_he4v8EIAg



Opening of Route 66 - TV Series...
nothing cooler than a giant smoke stack at the start :o
Wikapedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_66_%28TV_series%29)
http://www.youtube.com/v/n2tEndWTifA



Documentary Video
http://www.youtube.com/v/2dXag8cFswk


Classic Car/Route 66 Documentary
http://www.youtube.com/v/cDjC9N5aO_w


Actual Route 66 Episode
http://www.youtube.com/v/PF3SWMpt16M


Documentary Video (link only) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEDGSPehGpA

Wayne sent me a text message while I was out at Church at 5:32PM my time. At that point:

Wayne: 76km at 3.4L/100km in the iCDTi
Ken: 59.7mpg in the Prius
Sean: 77km at 3.5L/100km and improving very quickly!
Judd: 62.7mpg in the Prius

Looks like a very good competition shaping up here! 3.4L/100km = 69.2mpg and 3.5L/100km = 67.2mpg

Looks like the Prius is putting up a good fight.:)

I spoke with Ken late last night and it sounds as though they are all enjoying themselves. :) Ken hadn't driven the iCDTi yet but I'm not sure Wayne is going to be able to return it once he does. ;)

Does anyone here know if the Civic diesel being used in this evaluation is equipped with the standard manual gearbox, or is it the "i-Shift" automated manual transmission? I'd be curious to know the which one has the potential for better fuel economy.

It's the six-speed manual. See the review by Wayne here:

http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6526

I just spoke with Ken on the phone and got some interesting updates. :)

The group is about 4hrs ahead of the first reenactment at this point -- party due to not having to stop for an oil change. ;) They passed through Grand Island at about 9AM...

The Prius can't quite hold SHM in these conditions, but she's performing well at this point.

The last fillup for the two cars was in Omaha:

Prius: 58.32mpg
iCDTi: 61.48mpg

Keep in mind that in this cold weather the bladder effects are pronounced for the Prius and the diesel fuel for the iCDTi was foaming a bit so either fill might not be quite to the top. There is more confidence in the diesel fill but they'll know better at the next fueling stop.

Currently the Prius is holding at 60mpg while the iCDTi is clinging to 3.3L/100km (71.3mpg) -- still a strong competition!

Some extra good news -- Ironman Ken found an OBD2 port on the iCDTi!! The TPS settings aren't showing right now and both diesel settings were off (the B setting was WAY WAY off from the sound of it), so they are currently using diesel A and a larger displacement engine setting to try to bring the fuel flow into line with what they see on the iFCD built into the dash. (It is currently set to 2.8L instead of 2.2L) The intent is to bring it more in line at the next fuel stop by adding some trimming to the fuel consumption rate.

Not so nice is the fact that they've found a screw in one of the iCDTi tires -- though it isn't leaking at the moment.

Judd also says that the car drives very much like his 1.9L TDI when it comes to torque.

Onward and upward, guys!

Is anyone keeping track of fuel costs. I presume the diesel will end up with better MPG so it would also be interesting to compare total costs as diesel is usually a bit more than regular unleaded, or atleast it is here in Texas.

Hmmm,I'm normally a Toyota basher-despite owning a Prius that I love-but I agree with atlaw4u.The Prius appears to be winning the Fuel Economy contest.Most places in the USA diesel is about 15%(40-50 cents) more expensive than regular.Via eyeball it looks like the TDI is just 5% better in mpg, not the 15% it would need.
Early returns are favoring the Prius.
I guess Wayne et al are keeping track of the actual cost??
Charlie
PS-Just joking of course.I would trade my Prius for that Honda in a heartbeat then sell it an buy a shiny new Prius.
Duh-I mean Honda Diesel.Funny, it has been so long since we had a a diesel car other than VW and MB,that my brain just can't wrap around a Honda diesel.

Here is an eye opener for you

MN fuel prices 3/6/08
Diesel $3.78
87 $3.02


I can run my tdi at 50mpg city/hwy in the summer...doing over 70mph on the highway. If you read the ways to hypermile a tdi, you need to work on aerodynamics, and you need to drive about 50mph. Personally I just keep my tires inflated to max, change the air filter, synthetic oil, and drive normally. I dont baby the car nearly as much as my gas civic because $1500 for a turbo replacement caused by inproper operation at low rpms will never be made back in 2 or 3 mpg increases. I feel 50mpg combined is well into the 99 percentile of passenger cars in this country. And then when i feel i dont get enough mpg and its warm out i commute on a 102mpg scooter for 50 miles.....to make myself feel real important ;)

They absolutely are keeping track of the costs -- that's an important part of the comparison process in this case that wasn't a factor with the last reenactment.

The Civic diesel is one beautiful car, that's for sure.

As I see it there are all sorts of different metrics to consider when thinking about this run such as
- Fuel consumption
- Cost
- Emissions
Not sure one is more important than the other, but they are all food for thought.

The Civic diesel is one beautiful car, that's for sure.

As I see it there are all sorts of different metrics to consider when thinking about this run such as
- Fuel consumption
- Cost
- Emissions
Not sure one is more important than the other, but they are all food for thought.

That and personel taste. And driving dynamics. Im sure,, well I know the Civic's would be more fun to drive. And I bet the oiler will out handle the others by a long shot. No sport fasing in the PII or HCHII and no 6MT. Last time I drove a PII and HCHII in the hills of Arkansas I couldn't wait to get back in the Insight or my then current Civic.

Lets face it my Ranger would out handle a PII. and Im sure it would take the PII and HCHII on a closed road course. :)

Come on CR-Z!!!!

@phoebeisis

If my high school German doesn't fail me, it's "fahrvergnugen" with an umlaut over the u.

Via eyeball it looks like the TDI is just 5% better in mpg, not the 15% it would need.
Early returns are favoring the Prius.Maybe the VW has more far-fig-nugon-(old VW commercial used that word to mean fun to drive), but the Prius cost less to fuel. I wonder if any TDI forum folks are watching? I'm sure they have a different take on FE.
I guess Wayne et al are keeping track of the actual cost??
Charlie
PS-Just joking of course.I would trade my Prius for that VW in a heartbeat (then sell it an buy a shiny new Prius-or maybe a SW version of the VW if it ever arrives).
I think there is some confusion here: it's a Honda diesel that's on the run, not a VW. The Honda iCDTi acronym is a bit confusing.

I think there is some confusion here: it's a Honda diesel that's on the run, not a VW. The Honda iCDTi acronym is a bit confusing.

god i hope no one is confusing that 1993 mercury sable grille for a vw :rolleyes:

Duh, my bad confusing the Honda with the VW.It has been so long since we had any diesel other than a VW or a MB(which don't count because they are too expensive,heavy,thirsty),that I can't wrap my brain around Honda Diesel.
Charlie

I think diesel will be the new E85....and not regarding fuel economy...but making food and other goods even more expensive as we push more passenger cars onto it. :(

Wayne reported they just crossed into Wyoming. After a 3000 foot climb, the Prius is reporting 51 mpg, the diesel coming in at 56 mpg. The numbers are looking a lot closer than they thought, but they will also be on the lookout for the "fuel bladder effect".

Wish I could have made it. Sounds like a lot of fun!

Thanks,

Bob

Wayne reported they just crossed into Wyoming. After a 3000 foot climb, the Prius is reporting 51 mpg, the diesel coming in at 56 mpg. The numbers are looking a lot closer than they thought, but they will also be on the lookout for the "fuel bladder effect".

Wish I could have made it. Sounds like a lot of fun!

Thanks,

Bob

Diesel should come in very well during the hill climb segment. It wont have to do continual downshifting like an AT gasser due to it having maximum torque at such a low rpm.

Wayne just called me to give some numbers. They are in Cheyenne, WY at the moment. Looks like they filled up again:

The Prius went 503mi on 9.322g yielding 53.958mpg

The iCDTi went 508.7mi on 8.455g yielding 60.166mpg

They are currently fighting their way through 25-35mph direct headwinds and holding speeds of right around 60mph in an effort to keep to their timelines -- which as you can imagine is not doing their mileage any favors. :p

Of note is the fact that the Prius refuses to hold a SOC of more than 56% in these headwinds -- that's only about 4 or 5 bars instead of the more normal 6 bars.

They are still having a blast! Ken tells me that all the fun is at his expense, though. ;)

The east Wyoming part (but not the ice) in Laurie's car was my favorite drive on the trip. I hope they get to see it during daylight. Also fond memories of Hwy 6 through Nevada, dropping down into Death Valley and the drive into Ballarat.

The Prius seems to doing well considering diesel has more BTUs per gallon. Did a quick look, unleaded gas = 125,000 BTU per gallon, diesel = 138,700 BTUs per gallon. Given diesel engines are more efficient due to their compression this is somewhat an apples versus oranges thing. If diesel had the same energy content as gas, I bet the mileage would be a lot closer with the hybrid system on the gas engine making up for the higher compression of the diesel, at least on the highway. In the city, tables are turned. I'm glad efforts are being made on both engine types. With a barrel of crude producing only 7 gallons of diesel but 20 gallons of gas, both engine systems need continual improvement.

Hi Physhack,

Well, without an improvement of the rear end stiffness yes. But with a simple $160 mod, alignment for slight postive toe and tires like say Hydroedges, the Prius handles quite adequately, certainly better than a lightweight pickup truck with a rear end skiping along over the bumps. But this is a little OT, so lets leave it there...

Are they filling up at different stations? Why the 5 mile odometer difference? Gotta watch those Hondites!
I think the wind will hurt the Prius a lot more than the MT Honda. The Honda can run the same RPMS at 60 mph no matter what the wind speeds is-the TDI will just turn up the boost,squirt in a bit more gas,and keep those RPMs low.The Prius at 60 mph with an 80 mph airspeed in its face will have to turn more RPMs-not the usual 1200-1400-probably more like 1800-2000 RPMs in that wind.
Charlie

Hi All,

I am supprised the iCDTI is not doing better. The government says the average Diesel fuel energy advantage is 13 %. Does winter fuel have less specific energy ? My guess is it probably does because it needs the lower pour point, which means a less dense hydrocarbon, and less density of carbon and hydrogen bonds.

That last report has the Diesel FE advange at 11.5 % ( ((60.166/53.958)*100)-100) ). Which would imply that the drive trains are right on the same effiiency at turning fuel energy into motive power. If the diesel drive train was more efficient and the fuel has more energy the diesel the difference would be greater than 13 %.

That is similar to the result MB got testing a Diesel M class against a RX-400h .

Apparently that extra tranny loss in the Prius pays for itself in keeping the engine at an efficient state.

Hi phoebesis,

But the tighter turbo geometry will create more backpressure. No free lunch. In both cases more pumping losses.

Hi All,

Does anybody know the Cd and CdA of the two cars ?

Hi Physhack,

Well, without an improvement of the rear end stiffness yes. But with a simple $160 mod, alignment for slight postive toe and tires like say Hydroedges, the Prius handles quite adequately, certainly better than a lightweight pickup truck with a rear end skiping along over the bumps. But this is a little OT, so lets leave it there...

Wink

Hi All,

I am supprised the iCDTI is not doing better. The government says the average Diesel fuel energy advantage is 13 %. Does winter fuel have less specific energy ? My guess is it probably does because it needs the lower pour point, which means a less dense hydrocarbon, and less density of carbon and hydrogen bonds.
I think winter diesel has less slightly specific energy. Steady state highway driving in winter gives me lower fuel economy than the same speeds and roads in summer, but that is with our super Winnipeg winter blend. In Wyoming, the difference is probably smaller. Kerosene (~132000 BTU/gallon) is often blended in during the winter. Kerosene also has lower lubricity than diesel fuel which can lower fuel economy by small amounts.

I am a little surprised by the Honda's fuel economy. I was thinking it would be doing mid 60's. It is making for a good competition though.

The Honda iCDTi acronym is a bit confusing.
You just made me notice a small error in the thread. It is supposed to be i-CTDi, not i-CDTi. Think TDI with an i and a C in front.

With a barrel of crude producing only 7 gallons of diesel but 20 gallons of gas, both engine systems need continual improvement.

Isn't this ratio configurable depending at least somewhat on what the refiner wants to make?

Isn't this ratio configurable depending at least somewhat on what the refiner wants to make?

Yeah and I think the "natural" ratio depends on the source of the crude--for instance Oklahoma crude isn't the same mix as Venezuelan crude. My impression is that the new sources in Alberta are heavier and tend to produce a bit more diesel.

Here is an eye opener for you

MN fuel prices 3/6/08
Diesel $3.78
87 $3.02


nc fuel prices 3/6/08
Diesel $3.66
87 $3.13

17% More for diesel.:eek:

Ken just called me a couple of minutes ago... they are about 15min outside of Tonopah and making good time. Right now they are about 9hrs ahead of the last schedule and are looking to shave another hour off by not stopping at Ballarat. This should put them in SF at about 11PM or so.

Ken tells me the Prius is remaining surprisingly close to the iCDTi numbers...

Yeah and I think the "natural" ratio depends on the source of the crude--for instance Oklahoma crude isn't the same mix as Venezuelan crude. My impression is that the new sources in Alberta are heavier and tend to produce a bit more diesel.

It depends on the refineries cracking method.

USA: Catalytic Crack = 19.x gallons gasoline, 9.x gallons distillates, 14 gallons other

Europe: Hyrdo Crack = 15/15 gasoline/distillates, 14 gallons other.

You get a 2 gallon increase in product from a 42 gallon barrel incase you are wondering why it adds up to 44 gallons. (my old neighbor worked for an oil refinery, i read a lot of literature from his company)

Just spoke with Wayne. He reports they are approaching Bakersfield, CA.

Latest tanks:


Civic iCDTi

Salt Lake 451.6 miles 8.351 gal 54.1 mpg
Tonopah 414.6 miles 7.639 gal 54.28 mpg

Prius II

Salt Lake 445 miles 8.354 gal 53.26 mpg
Tonopah 408.1 miles 7.059 gal 57.81 mpg

Considering the price difference of fuel I would say the Prius is currently in the lead. I can't wait to see the final calculations and I hope someone is taking plenty of pictures.

Since the odos read different, you should probably be using GPS to calc distance traveled...

Just got off the phone and Wayne is in the Bakersfield, CA area.

What range of air temperatures are they experiencing along their route?

I guess they will use the same # of miles for both cars to calculate the final mpg.There isn't going to be many gallons between them in the end-maybe 3-4- in favor of the diesel with with the Prius being maybe $5-$10 cheaper over that long trip.
Charlie

Both cars got here to LA safe -- at 4am -- and all six of them have napped out in various positions downstairs in my house. Very cute. It looks either like a dog sled pack -- or I threw one hell of a party.

Thanks for the update tarabell. Sounds like the guys are beat!
You're a good sport for having the guys at your place.

Did it happen? I spent about 2 hours driving up and down west adams and I couldn't find anyone.

The guys entered LA at 3am - Rani (tarabell) was kind enough to let them shower and get a little bit of sleep...as you will soon see they could have used lots more sleep.

Discovery Channel had them busy all day long. Unfortunately, the webhost for CleanMPG decided to hiccup for three hours this morning - the worst timing for a random crash. :(

Tonight, Rani was treated to dinner for being a timely host.


Statistics

Prius II---610 miles------10.06 gallons---60.60 mpg
iCDTi------630.75 miles*--8.747 gallons---71.7 mpg

* had to travel farther to find a station that had diesel.


They are hoping to be in Albuquerque, then Amarillo so Andrew (Pale Melesian) can fly the final 500 miles to the Piney Woods in Longview, Texas. As of 10pm Central Time (Chicago), they are still in LA.

At the clinic, David Newsome (host at The Discovery Channel) took the Prius around the course and got 42mpg - 2nd time got 46mpg. This was without any input from Wayne. Course was five miles long. Then Wayne took the same course and got over 100mpg (no ScanGage - Prius only reads 99.9mpg). Wayne then did a clinic with David, then when with Wayne as a passenger/instructor, David got over 100mpg.

Otherwise, it was a boring day.

The dog sled packs left a while ago, probably about 4 hours behind schedule but what a fun and productive day!

First thing we did this morning was get the cars washed to get ready for the shoot, so we got there a little late, around 9am.

We were parked on Adams right next to the large cathedral at Figueroa for about 2 hours, with the film crew there on the sidewalk doing interviews with Wayne. Then Wayne took the crew in the Prius with him and the fun began. (Now I hope I got this all down right, but this is what I heard. If any of it is off, I hope someone corrects me.) First the show host David drove the Prius for a couple circuits –going down Adams, then making a loop and taking the freeway back to where we were. He got 42 and 46mpg driving (in his words) “like an ass.” He was actually quite surprised the Prius could make him do that well. Then Wayne took over and drove a bunch of circuits himself with them in the car to show him what this was really all about. Wayne pegged the Prius at 100mpg and started giving him the theory while showing him the practice.

Meanwhile PaleM (Andrew), Laker (Stephen), and Sean had fun with me finding out what the HCH-II was all about. Ken and Jud also. We also made a few trips back to my house which happens to be not far from Adams for necessities. So we were also doing our own circuits in the iCDTi and HCH not necessarily in synch with Wayne. But on one trip we happened to come up behind them. The funniest sight you ever saw – the cameraman hanging out of the lead car, filming Wayne driving the Prius just behind. I think that guy’s feet were locked into the arm rest, or someone was grabbing his ankles because I don’t see how he could hang out past his waist, turned 180 degrees backwards and film at the same time. All I could think was, thank goodness we drive slow...

Finally it was time for David to retake the wheel of the Prius and see what he could do with Wayne coaching. According to Wayne, he was extra intense with David, as the stakes were high. From what I heard from others including the crew, Wayne was your basic nightmare -- drill sergeant, Chinese water torture and piranha fish all the same time. But let the results speak for themselves – David made 100mpg. I believe there were two 99 bars and two 95 bars, again if I heard correctly. The segment was about 4 miles but I don’t know if this was achieved one-way, or round trip for 8 miles.

From what I heard, things got very quiet in the car as they stared at the Prius screen and they demanded Wayne explain more about the bars and the numbers they were looking at. Talk about getting their attention, if the weren’t before, now the crew was really paying attention. Even talking with David after the clinics, he said he never in his wildest dreams thought he would get a number like that. Someone like Wayne --yes. Someone like him—no. The difference between driving “like an ass” and driving like this was never made so clear.

There were a couple breaks in between where the crew left to eat lunch and we did too. Again, it was a good thing home was nearby to give everyone a rest and the chance to use the bathroom, call home in quiet, and eat sitting at a table instead of in a car.

The film crew then followed up the clinics in a parking lot at the small college nearby and did a lot of shooting of the cars, and to our surprise, of the rest of us too. They did group shots and short sequences of us introducing ourselves, describing what we drive, and some of our best tanks and segments. They also did some detailed questions on camera, of why we hypermile, how we got to know Wayne, our opinions of how driving this way has changed us, and a few other typical questions. It was great fun to see each one – even 17 year old Sean, get their 15 minutes of fame in front of the camera. I thought the ones of us leaning against the front of our cars were especially hilarious – we were all instructed to fold our arms and put on our best badass look.

This all took several hours and a lot of arranging us and the cars several times. In between there was apparently some sort of crime in progress nearby – this is LA after all -- and besides ten minutes of police cars in code blue swirling around us, for the next hour there was an LAPD helicopter circling overhead, causing the crew to have fits and have to stop and wait out each pass so they could finish recording the sound.

Finally they finished and we all shook hands and they thanked us for participating in this project. From what they said it should air after June or July, however we have no idea what they will use and what they won’t. We headed back home and decided to have our final dinner together out. So we went to a fun Mexican place near my house. I picked it because I said it would consume the least amount of gas, and it did – I made us walk.

A friend of Ken’s also drove up from San Diego to join us so we had a great farewell party there at the restaurant. Another sad parting – what kind, warm-hearted people these guys these are. Finally the teams got everything packed back into the two cars. After six rounds of hugs and a few do-overs just for fun they took off like...like snails into the night.

Wow, that's so amazing. What a great end to a great trip!

Did anyone keep any stats on the MPG in the vehicles in city driving instead of highway driving? I'd be curious to see if the diesel comes out on top there too.

Im standing by for there fly by. :)

At the clinic, David Newsome (host at The Discovery Channel) took the Prius around the course and got 42mpg - 2nd time got 46mpg. This was without any input from Wayne. Course was five miles long. Then Wayne took the same course and got over 100mpg (no ScanGage - Prius only reads 99.9mpg). Wayne then did a clinic with David, then when with Wayne as a passenger/instructor, David got over 100mpg.

Otherwise, it was a boring day.

that is so KEWL!!!:woot:

Any idea when this Discovery show will be airing? Or which show it is?

I see 4 fillups?
Prius 1966.1 miles 34.795 gallons 56.50245 mpg

Honda 2005.65 miles 33.192 gallons 60.426 mpg

The different odometer readings?One of the postings mentioned hunting for diesel-probably the last fillup 610 miles for the Prius and 630 miles for the Honda.The other postings showed 5-6 miles difference(with the Honda always going farther) over 400-500 miles-MAYBE 1.5% via eyeball.

My GUESS gas cost at $3.25~ $104.40 Prius
Honda diesel ~$3.65 ~ $121.00
2000 miles- well under $125 in fuel-not bad!!
I'm not going to factor in the 1.5% odometer difference,since maybe it is correct,and the Honda had to hunt for diesel.
Which car was most comfortable? Honda usually has stiffer foam which frequently is a bit better for long hauls-but the Prius has a more upright drivers position which I like.
Charlie
PS If this is recorded somewhere else-mea culpa.

I see 4 fillups?
Prius 1966.1 miles 34.795 gallons 56.50245 mpg

Honda 2005.65 miles 33.192 gallons 60.426 mpg

The different odometer readings?One of the postings mentioned hunting for diesel-probably the last fillup 610 miles for the Prius and 630 miles for the Honda.The other postings showed 5-6 miles difference(with the Honda always going farther) over 400-500 miles-MAYBE 1.5% via eyeball.

My GUESS gas cost at $3.25~ $104.40 Prius
Honda diesel ~$3.65 ~ $121.00
2000 miles- well under $125 in fuel-not bad!!
I'm not going to factor in the 1.5% odometer difference,since maybe it is correct,and the Honda had to hunt for diesel.
Which car was most comfortable? Honda usually has stiffer foam which frequently is a bit better for long hauls-but the Prius has a more upright drivers position which I like.
Charlie
PS If this is recorded somewhere else-mea culpa.
If you use the same distance the Honda still comes in at 59.2mpg...and we know it drove a little further. Quite impressive.

We have taken many hundreds of pictures, and many many videos of the Discovery Channel shoot. We will post them upon our return. We are currently east of Amarillo, and we are planning on meeting up with psyshack at about 11pm tonight. He will be joining the crew until St. Louis. Will keep you posted...back to the road.

I should have mentioned The Big Texan Steak Ranch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Texan_Steak_Ranch)!

Prius 1966.1 miles 34.795 gallons 56.50245 mpg

Honda iCDTi 2005.65 miles 33.192 gallons 60.426 mpg
.

So, carrying down the results from the top of this thread of the Civic Hybrid trans-continental run:

2005 Honda Civic hybrid -59.29 mpg.

2008 Honda Civic Hybrid - 56.04 mpg.

The iCDTi looks comparable to the 1st gen Civic Hybrid in their trip mileage results (both manual trans) and the Prius II looks comparable to the 2nd Gen Civic Hybrid (both CVT). Were there any major differences in the driving environment (rain, snow, wind air temps, etc.) between the two runs? I wonder what the Honda Insight would have made on that run? Or on the non-hybrid side, the Honda Fit vs. the Toyota Yaris vs. the VW Rabbit/Golf, vs. the Honda Aerocivic.

basjoos,
What time of year was the Civic Trans Run? This was obviously done in cold weather if our temps in South Louisiana are any indication(we had 4 days of under 34 degrees in the last 6 days)
I'm fairly sure the slightly denser cold air causes a measurable drop in FE-maybe a few tenths on FE cars like these.
Charlie

basjoos,
What time of year was the Civic Trans Run? This was obviously done in cold weather if our temps in South Louisiana are any indication(we had 4 days of under 34 degrees in the last 6 days)
I'm fairly sure the slightly denser cold air causes a measurable drop in FE-maybe a few tenths on FE cars like these.
Charlie

that was just done this february, and they ran through some really bad weather.....couple snow storms and came across wyoming and out of the rockies on ice!

We have taken many hundreds of pictures, and many many videos of the Discovery Channel shoot. We will post them upon our return. We are currently east of Amarillo, and we are planning on meeting up with psyshack at about 11pm tonight. He will be joining the crew until St. Louis. Will keep you posted...back to the road.
I can't join you, but what route are you taking from Amarillo to St.Louis?
Passing through Springfield, MO on the way? I'm working all week but have a few free hours in the afternoons if that works for you guys.

Hello

Just left the crew on the east side of Tulsa. Because of work issues. I'm not able to go on up into Mo. with them. But OOOO how I would have liked to. :)

Anyway,,,, we met up in Stroud, Ok. late in the evening. The drivers wolfed down some food at the McDonalds. And then we were off. I got to drive the Civic from Stroud to were I departed on the east side of Tulsa. Wayne said I pulled a solid 74 mpg out of the little oiler. It was a fun car to drive! I only had about 60 miles of seat time. But man was it fun!

The road has beat on them pretty bad. They all looked like they had been rode hard and put up wet.

That Civic is one hell of a neat car. Loose the 5 door hatch. Make it a Coupe or Sedan. Get the latest tech in it and it should be a mpg daily grind monster.

Im beat. Have a hospital with pump problems I will need to address in a few hours. So I need to put it between the sheets.

I had a great time meeting the drivers and it was good to see Wayne.

psy,,,, out

I envy you, Jeff! Glad you had some seat time in the Civic -- I'd love to own that car as is. Even without having driven it myself! :p

If they left Tulsa at that hour they're probably well through Springfield and probably into St.Louis by now. Darn, would've loved to buy them lunch and chat a bit on their way through.

Hi all! I'm back at work this morning. I'll post some more details later. I am SOOO tired! I'm running on a double-shot of coffee right now.

They dropped me off at Amarillo yesterday at 4:20pm. My flight was at 4:40, but the incoming flight was delayed, so we had time. It was a real race - drafting the fastest semi available at 80-ish mph. That KILLED the mileage - think low 40s. I made the drive from DFW to Longview and got home about 10:30 last night, and crashed. I got 68.6 mpg over 148 miles at an average 42mph for the drive home. :D

The filming in LA was great, and it seemed they wanted it to be a good thing, so I expect it won't be another "look what these psychos are doing" episode.

All in all, a great experience. Absolutely positively wonderful, and exhausting. I met some great guys, and one wonderful gal - tarabell. She was the most gracious, giving, friendly lady you can imagine. The world needs more like her.

Thanks guys. Much longer writeup coming later.

Good to hear you made it in time! Take it easy -- it took me a good 3 days to get back to normal.

I can't wait to see you guys on TV.

You can feel good about your efforts. Imagine all the people exposed to hypermiling techniques through that TV program, and how much gasoline will be saved!

Harry

Hello Wayne. You left for San Francisco last Wednesday. We are at the end of the following Monday and I can not find a progress report on your comparison between the TDI diesel and the gasoline hybrid. Have you posted any information? Where can I find it? Somewhere on www.cleanMPG.com.?

Hickman, Wayne was not due to return home until late this evening. Give him some time to recover and there will be a write up for you to read.

Hi All:

___So many questions and we all have so many answers but for now, I have to be back on the road to Ann Arbor Michigan to take the iCDTi back in less than 5 hours and (2) train rides back to pick up the Ranger and back home after that.

___Just an absolute blast and I wish I could have brought you all along for the ride as it was truly an “experience” of a lifetime for the second time in 3 weeks! As always, the most tremendous person on the trip was Tarabell given her last minute hospitality and helping me with the last minute itinerary changes.

___Tarabell, and for the 20th time, I cannot tell you how much we all, hell, “I” appreciated your efforts to make this second trip yet another success.

___As for the rest, Bestmapman (Jud) and I have some pretty solid theories about the Prius-II’s SoC levels through various segments of the trip (none of them are out of the ordinary or worthy of a conspiracy theory novel either ;)). Everyone loved both the iCDTi and Prius for there respective strengths and were ho hum about their respective weaknesses. More in a write-up later about that. Sean (the youngster ;)) probably saw more of the country in 3 days than he has seen the previous 17 years plus learned both the iCDTi’s and Prius’ best while watching, learning and practicing some of what he saw over the previous 3 days. Seeing Jud take the Prius to a few 100 mpg bars crossing from CA99 to I-5 via Waco in CA was an experience I wish I could have seen! At the same time, Ken was pulling his own 100 + mpg P&G in the iCDTi with the hot and heavy Drill Sergeant routine hitting him form the side all the while the 4 lane turned to a two lane which turned into a Guatemalan highway driving nightmare … Let us just say the iCDTi was still pulling 100 mpg + with at least a few miles of off-pavement driving :D

___The Wyoming Ice-Road was relatively ice-free this time around and during the day vs. night, the scenery was “Oh My God!!!” beautiful. FAS’ing the iCDTi at over 90 in NV was a somewhat “fun” experience as was seeing the Prius at over 85 with the SoC running at an incredible 80 + % and absolutely no more would fit in her coming down into Salt Lake City. The 10 + mile long FAS out of Tonopah was yet another fun one but best of all, their wasn’t an hour that went by that someone in one car or the other was not in tears given the stories and shenanigans that were heard and experienced by all.

___Ken, I am letting Sean “tell all” about the whimsical whimpers and Stephen about the cries of panic that exploded out of the rear seats early one morning :D :D :D

___Another … Jud is not just the Bestmapman, he is the “Story Teller” and oh boy could he entertain for hours upon hours!!!

___And guess who received their honorary hypermiling stripes on the trip? That would be Sean (Son of SlowHands) in WY (like Father, like son we always say ;)) and Jud in OK with Stephen driving the Mazda3 and Psy in the iCDTi just ahead. Both pulling away from the scene as slow as humanly possible too :D :D :D

___Overall, the Prius-II was truly impressive by not only knocking the hell out of the EPA as did the HCH-I and II on the actual reenactment but for keeping up and even beating the Civic iCDTi during one segment. That was not even close to expected nor will this probably be repeated … Unless some one wants to do it again next week that is ;)

___About all for now and after some rest and everyone back in their std. routine, we will try and help pull the knowledge gained from the first and second trip together and answer some of what was accomplished in a manner that should help answer at least some of the questions posed in both blogs.

___Good Luck and thanks for listening as always.

___Wayne

Welcome back all -- sounds like another great trip to me! :)

wow, wayne. just wow.

What Wayne said, and more... we're back, and as Psy said 'road beat'. I have to give Wayne some props for actually staying concious enough to post something last night even with having to get up at 3:00 to drive the iCDTi to Ann Arbor this morning. I just couldn't bear to fire up the computer last night with my real bed at home calling out to me to get sleep in a HORIZONTAL position... I need to be somewhat functional today at work and tonight for teaching a class. I'll have a chance in the next couple of days to do some write up as will my son Sean, who will be joining into the forums here at CleanMPG.com

Hi all,

Made it back to Cincinnati after a side trip to Memphis, and overnight at my daughter's in Nashville.

WOW, what an experience. Wayne has accused me (LOL) of being a "story teller". Well, I have told a few in my day and just added a few more to the collection. All of you are now forever immortalized.

I had a great time. I will get the pics together so we can post them.

By the way I have an idea for a new thrill ride a Disneyland call "Threading the needle".

Oh boy. I've heard "Thread the needle!!" a few times. :eek:

Well bestmapman you missed an even tighter 'thread the needle' while the four of us were doing part of route 66 in Illinois... :eek: doesn't do it justice.

Just found out a few minutes ago that I am leaving tomorrow morning at 6:00am to drive with my brother, mother, and uncle to Colo. Springs, CO for a funeral Thursday morning... methinks I have a pretty good handle on I88 and I80 all the way to where you split off for Denver ;)

I received a phone call last week Wednesday while we were driving towards Iowa that my cousin Jim had been killed the night before. He apparently had some kind of trouble with his van and was crossing the Tollway on foot when he got hit by some poor innocent guy in a Toyota - who did call the cops immediately (first reports we had were that it was hit and run). It is his funeral that we are going to. I must publicly thank all of those on this trip who offered their understanding and condolences to myself and my son Sean on our tragic loss.

:eek: They don't call you IronMan for nothing! Be safe! Sorry about the circumstances.

And Jud: Always trying the business angle, aren't you?

Just found out a few minutes ago that I am leaving tomorrow morning at 6:00am to drive with my brother, mother, and uncle to Colo. Springs, CO for a funeral Thursday morning... methinks I have a pretty good handle on I88 and I80 all the way to where you split off for Denver)

Ken and Sean, Sorry for your loss. The two of you were a delight to have on the trip. I was so impressed how quick Sean picked up on all the new techniques.

Drive safe. You should have the route memorized by now.

Ken, I want to add my condolences to the list as well. I'll be keeping you and your family in my prayers. Have a safe trip.

Jud: Always trying the business angle, aren't you?

LOL, Yeah I'm going to start looking at the vacation angle next.

Made it back to Cincinnati after a side trip to Memphis, and overnight at my daughter's in Nashville.

Should have swung by while you were here. :D

Sounds like you all had a great trip, looking forward to the full summary.

Here are some pics from the trip and Discovery Channel shoot.

Somewhere is Iowa
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/DSC03450-reduced_.jpg

Wayne and David Newsom
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/DSC03486-reduced_.jpg

Tarabell being interviewed
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/DSC03515-reduced_.jpg

Slow Hands being interviewed
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/DSC03528-reduced_.jpg

PaleMelanesian being interviewed.
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/DSC03537-reduced_.jpg

David Newsom talking to all of us.
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/DSC03474-reduced_.jpg

Laker being interviewed
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/DSC03520-reduced_.jpg

At McDonalds with Psyshack
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/DSC03560-reduced.jpg

Awesome pics, Jud -- thanks!

Hi, Andrew! ;)

Great pics! The one at McD's with Psy definitely confirms Psy's assessment of them being "rode hard and put up wet".:p

Thanks for the pics!
Perhaps you need to get McDonalds to be a sponsor!

That red Prius is really gleaming, isn't it?

It's nice to see palm trees, trees with leaves, and people in short-sleeve shirts!

It's going down to 18F here tonight. We had some snow flurries today, with a cold wind.

Warm sure looks nice right about now...

Harry

Hi Harry:

___Another thing about temps with a Prius (I know I am speaking to the choir here about this) it’s a battle to drive in the winter. Whether that be trying to get her to glide, holding up SoC in the mountains or holding up temps above the S4 hard deck with the ICE-Off. In the high 60’s/mid 70’s, Jud’s Prius-II showed the same stuff I have seen in the past but not in a really really long time. Prius’ in the summer kick @$$, don’t they :D

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Prius’ in the summer kick @$$, don’t they :D




Yes, they do.

I set my cruise on 62 over the weekend, on the Interstate, to eke out 50+ mpg highway.

Harry

Yes, they do.

I set my cruise on 62 over the weekend, on the Interstate, to eke out 50+ mpg highway.

Harry

That seems about right. Here are the numbers that I get on cruise.

50 MPH - 55 MPG
60 MPH - 50 MPG
70 MPH - 45 MPG

By using SHM I can consistently get over 60 on the highway. If I had a flat area I could get over 70. SHM is very hard to maintain with any variable. If there are headwinds or uphill segments it is not maintainable. However you can use the rest of the time and that will get about 60 total.

If you can stay in SHM it will produce about 70 at 50 MPH.

That seems about right. Here are the numbers that I get on cruise.

50 MPH - 55 MPG
60 MPH - 50 MPG
70 MPH - 45 MPG

By using SHM I can consistently get over 60 on the highway. If I had a flat area I could get over 70. SHM is very hard to maintain with any variable. If there are headwinds or uphill segments it is not maintainable. However you can use the rest of the time and that will get about 60 total.

If you can stay in SHM it will produce about 70 at 50 MPH.


What temperature are those numbers good for? I am seeing significantly better numbers than that but I have a few aero mods that might be helping out. I have not been able to quantify any gains so far but maybe this is a start. I drive 60 MPH indicated, 59MPH actual. Here is what I have been getting at various temps with no winds (calm). These were recorded on a 37 mile stretch of my commute, beginning and ending at the same elevation and using cruise control:

37 F = 58.5 MPG, 59 MPH
56 F = 63.3 MPG, 59 MPH
63 F = 64.6 MPG, 59 MPH


Feel free to move this to a different thread.

Dan

My numbers are based on about 5 trips I made learly last summer from Cincinnati to Indianapolis for a project I was working on. I think they are representative of a newer car with the driver using cruise. The car was newer at the time (> 5k miles) and I wasn't using any of the new techniques. In fact my tire pressures were still low. The temps were summer although usually early morning on the way and dusk on the return trip. So lets say high 70's. I think I would get much better numbers now for three reasons.

1) I have installed aero hubcaps.
2) I am now running 70 psi
3) I am using SHM and Warp Steath and am off the cruise most of the time.

What aero mods do you have on? Have you received the new aero grill from Franklin yet?

I'm uploading my pics from this trip to Andrew's ftp site... ohboy its going to take a while. Should be done by Thursday morning about 2:00am methinks... only about 729mb and 320 pics. And I cleared out the blurry ones...

Hahahaha! Yeah, mine took a while too, and I had only half that many pics!

Hi All:

___Although we could not write up an all-inclusive article due to a single page of the iCDTi’s driver and FE logs was missing, the diesel won the Greatest Automobile Race Reenactment in terms of FE but it was by the slimmest of margins. All of us were really surprised to see how well the HCH-I, II and Prius-II performed up against one of the most fuel efficient diesels on the planet! With the cost diesel fuel in the US factored in, the iCDTi would have come in last in this shootout :rolleyes:

Reenactment of the Centennial of the 1908 NY to San Francisco Race (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9414)

___When considering the HCH-I and II from Chicago and Toledo to San Francisco in the first drive respectively but on a slightly lengthier route, the FE achieved looked like this:

2005 Honda Civic Hybrid - 2,537.0 miles on 42.783 gal. = 59.29 mpgUS or 4.0 L/100 Km
2008 Honda Civic Hybrid - 2,800.7 miles on 49.976 gal. = 56.04 mpgUS or 4.2 L/100 Km

___For the Honda Civic diesel and Prius-II on a slightly shorter route and in slightly less formidable conditions (still winter but we did not experience actual below 0 degrees F numbers in WY.) as described in the very thread, the results were as follows:

2007 Toyota Prius - 1966.1 miles on 34.795 US gallons = 56.502 mpgUS or 4.1 L/100 Km
2007 Honda Civic iCDTi - 2005.65 miles on 33.192 US gallons = 60.426 mpgUS or 3.8 L/100 Km

___The only real difference was that the iCDTi was shod with snow tires which would not make that much of a difference but this drive played to the diesel’s strengths being an all highway mid-speed cruise!

___Recapping, the shootout yielded the following:

Diesel vs. Hybrid Shootout

Year|Make|Model|Type|FE (mpgUS)/(L/100 Km)
2007|Honda|Civic iCDTi|Diesel|60.43/3.89
2005|Honda|Civic–I|Hybrid|59.29/3.97
2007|Toyota|Prius–II|Hybrid|56.50/4.16
2008|Honda|Civic–II|Hybrid|56.04/4.2

___I have pulled a lot more out of the 2.2L iCDTi with less load on a similar highway cruise in summer and when taking it home and back to Detroit earlier this month but the nose to bumper results with any number of drivers speak for themselves. The hybrids did a lot better with the diesel doing a little worse than any of us would have expected. Add to it the iCDTi is far more fuel efficient than the BMW 520d too!

___Good Luck

___Wayne