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I have two questions:


1. Does gas with ethanol produce lower MPG?

2. Is the any way to find out which stations add ethanol to the gas besides actually driving to the station to find out?

Thanks you in advance:)

Some say it does some say they can't tell the difference. I guess it depends on enviornmental factors, commute, and driving style.

I don't know anything about number 2. That would be an interesting website to create if it doesn't exist already.

Ethanol does reduce horsepower, and therefore mileage. The reduction for E10 is 4-5% on average. They must post it at the pump, but I don't know any way to know ahead of time. We have it here in the winter, so I drive the extra 10 miles to the reservation during the winter to buy real gas, as they are exempt from the requirement to use ethanol. They make more money in the winter than the rest of the year, as many folks that normally don't buy there, will drive the extra distance during the winter, in order to get good gas. You more than make up for the distance, with the extra performance! :)

I primarily gas up at the same station, which posts that it contains ethanol during the winter months and during the summer months it proudly posts that it contains NO ethanol. When the switch is made I have to adjust my SG fuel factor from around 2% to 8%, which means I am using 6% more or less after the change.

They don't say how much ethanol is in the mix, unfortunately.

The consensus here is E10 does not get you as far as straight gas.

I'm pretty sure the pump has to indicate if it contains ethanol, and it very likely does if you live in NJ, as you are probably near NYC or Philly.

Here is the US map with reformulated gas stations (http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/formulation_map.jpg)(read: E10) in green.

I found out about Speedway adding ethanol to their gas by emailing the customer service that was on their website and asking them. Citgo said they only add ethanol in select areas.

A new law took effect in Missouri on Jan 1 this year mandating E10 in all grades of gas. In general I have been getting around 4-5 mpg less, but it's also been very cold.

Stations in Missouri will not be required to post the E10 since all grades have it. So if you're driving through and don't already know, you won't be able to tell at the pump that you are getting E10.

-- Rick

E10 will get you ~2-5% less mpg than straight gas.

However, it is required in many places as an oxygenizer for emissions control (thus why Chicago gas is all E10). It doubles as an octane booster, allowing greater refined yield from crude oil.

The emissions benefits far outweigh the drop in gas mileage.

The only other oxygenizer widely used in the USA until recently was MTBE, which has the emissions and oxygen benefits of ethanol without the MPG drop.

However, many states have recently banned MTBE due to it being a known carcinogen and several cases of it poisoning groundwater.

However, many states have recently banned MTBE due to it being a known carcinogen and several cases of it poisoning groundwater.

Actually MTBE is considered to be "potentially" carcinogenic at high levels, there are no conclusive studies at even high levels, and nothing that suggests potential at low levels.

MTBE's downfall is that it is detectable by humans at very low levels and we don't like the way it smells.

....

MTBE's downfall is that it is detectable by humans at very low levels and we don't like the way it smells.

Also that (like ethanol, unlike most gasoline compounds) it disolves relatively well in water and (unlike ethanol) is fairly slow to break down. This means that when it leaks from an underground storage tank system it makes a large mobile contamination plume that is slow to naturally degrade.

while you get less MPG ~10% of your fuel becomes "Carbon Neutral" and Domestic.

while you get less MPG ~10% of your fuel becomes "Carbon Neutral" and Domestic.

Ethanol isn't carbon neutral, best estimates are at most 25% reduction in carbon emissions.

Ethanol isn't carbon neutral

First we would have to agree on the definition of the term "Carbon Neutral"... which is why I tend to put the term in quotes " ".

There are a few different ways to define "Carbon Neutral"

#1> The Plant Sugars used to produce ethanol come from the chemical process in the plant where the plant uses photosynthesis to convert CO2 in the air and water H2O into a form of sugar / food the plant can use.... so any Carbon released during the burning of the Ethanol was just carbon that the plant absorbed while it was growing... no net carbon change ... the carbon has just been moved from where the plant absorbed it to where you burn it... and the time scale has changed form how long it took the plant to absorb it and how quickly you release it.

#2> You can look at the emissions and calculate how much Carbon is in the emissions... This ignores the plant C02 absorbing used in #1 and the carbon cycle in #3.

#3> You can look at the total carbon cycle on a planetary scale and ask where the carbon came from and where it is going.

If you Use #1 Ethanol is "Carbon Neutral"

If you use #2 No Hydrocarbon fuel can ever be "Carbon Neutral"

If you use #3 all hydrocarbon fuels even oil and coal are "Carbon Neutral"

best estimates are at most 25% reduction in carbon emissions.

which would mean 10% of your fuel is cleaner and is domestic ... still an improvement over 0%.

more than about ~4% in MPG is beyond the energy content difference between E10 and straight gasoline... any difference beyond ~4% in MPG is more likely due to colder weather rolling resistance ... colder weather aerodynamics... and of course as always way up at #1 how the driver drives the route and the car.

It's simple. There is less energy in a gallon of ethanol than in gasoline. When you mix them, the overall average energy goes down. Less energy per gallon = more gallons for the same go-power. Ethanol lowers your mpg.

Iamian

This is the source for the 25% number I used from memory, but the actual numbers are estimated between 18-28% reduction in GHG emissions if the primary distillation energy source is natural gas but a 2% increase if coal is used.

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/345.pdf

The analysis appears to only include GHG resulting from fossil fuel used from seed to gas pump.

With E-10 the reduction is between 1.8%-2.8% GHG if the Argonne Lab study is correct.

all good stuff... The link you provided falls under the

#1 definition of "Carbon Neutral"
Although they should use Ethanol or other RE sources to produce Ethanol... which would shift those numbers allot....

Lower MPG numbers are traded for reduced emissions , sustainability , and domestic production.

If I ran Hydrogen in my car that was made from 100% RE sources it would be very clean running... but since hydrogen has such a low energy per unit volume I would take a massive hit to my MPG numbers.... and RE H2 would be very expensive... like ethanol... it is just about what the priority is... $ ... MPG ... emissions... etc....

while you get less MPG ~10% of your fuel becomes "Carbon Neutral" and Domestic.

Carbon neutral, not a chance. The combine used to harvest the corn takes oil more likely than not. The corn requires a lot of water to grow properly. Then you need to refine it into ethanol, energy intensive process. Then truck it (truck it, not pipe it, because ethanol is corrosive) to the gas stations.

Ethanol is already subsidized to the tune of $1.50 per gallon by the government (out of taxpayer's pockets). Without this subsidy it would be completely unfeasible to sustain from an economic standpoint, and it's just competing with farm space for food, driving up food prices like no other (I can't believe how expensive food has gotten in the past year!).

And my reward at the gas pump? A 10% drop in MPG.

Thanks, but no thanks.

34.8 MJ/litre energy content for gasoline.
23.5 MJ/liter energy content for ethanol.
(34.8*.9)+(23.5*.1)= 33.67 MJ/liter energy content for E10.
((34.8/33.67)-1)*100=3.36% less energy content in E10.

So, you should have a 3.36% drop in your fuel economy at most in an ideal world, and it should cost 3.36% less than regular gasoline.

EDIT: Hmm now I feel dumb doing the calculations cause wikipedia also has Gasahol which is e10 listed on the energy content page too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Energy_content

34.8 MJ/litre energy content for gasoline.
23.5 MJ/liter energy content for ethanol.
(34.8*.9)+(23.5*.1)= 33.67 MJ/liter energy content for E10.
((34.8/33.67)-1)*100=3.36% less energy content in E10.

So, you should have a 3.36% drop in your fuel economy at most in an ideal world, and it should cost 3.36% less than regular gasoline.

EDIT: Hmm now I feel dumb doing the calculations cause wikipedia also has Gasahol which is e10 listed on the energy content page too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Energy_content

That's what should happen. But it can't be.

Case in point: my trip to Philly last Thanksgiving. I was average 34-37 MPG with local commuting. I gas up somewhere in Ohio, and get 47.9 MPG. I gas up again in west PA, 44.7 MPG.

I gas up outside of Philly coming back, an RFG area, guess what? 35.8 MPG. Gassed up again in western PA, got 45.2 MPG all the way back.

I just called several stations in Ohio - I'm gassing up in Ohio from now on. No way I'm going to pay an extra 10-20 cents a gallon for this E10 RFG garbage, and then have it reduce my mileage. No, sir.

That's what should happen. But it can't be.

Case in point: my trip to Philly last Thanksgiving. I was average 34-37 MPG with local commuting. I gas up somewhere in Ohio, and get 47.9 MPG. I gas up again in west PA, 44.7 MPG.

I gas up outside of Philly coming back, an RFG area, guess what? 35.8 MPG. Gassed up again in western PA, got 45.2 MPG all the way back.

I just called several stations in Ohio - I'm gassing up in Ohio from now on. No way I'm going to pay an extra 10-20 cents a gallon for this E10 RFG garbage, and then have it reduce my mileage. No, sir.

lamebums:

Recheck your numbers. It is improbable that you'd get 77% of your gas mileage while running 90% gas. You'd probably get better numbers even if the other 10% was water. Ethanol does burn, and is compatible with gas, so something's wrong or missing with your analysis.

I'd suspect city vs highway MPG is responsible.

lamebums:

Recheck your numbers. It is improbable that you'd get 77% of your gas mileage while running 90% gas. You'd probably get better numbers even if the other 10% was water. Ethanol does burn, and is compatible with gas, so something's wrong or missing with your analysis.

I'd suspect city vs highway MPG is responsible.

It may have been a fluke - but it was all highway miles going 60-80 MPH the whole time. I drove 80 through most of Pennsylvania, which may account for some of the FE hit, but I drove that fast in both directions, and didn't see nearly as big a hit when using straight gas. I know for a fact it was E10 RFG the one time I filled up in Philly. That's a double whammy - the loss in FE from using ethanol, and then having RFG. That's your 20 percent drop there (assuming 10% drop from each). Although the EPA says 1-3% percent for each fuel, a quick google of "rfg gas mileage" (no quotes) says 10-20% seems to be about the norm for loss.

I have a tank of gasahaul in my car right now.

At first it didn't want to idle right. That cleared up. See what mpg does. But Im not Hypermiling much right now....

lamebums:

Recheck your numbers. It is improbable that you'd get 77% of your gas mileage while running 90% gas. You'd probably get better numbers even if the other 10% was water. Ethanol does burn, and is compatible with gas, so something's wrong or missing with your analysis.

I'd suspect city vs highway MPG is responsible.

Thats what would happen ideally, but I think the reason the numbers are lower is because the cars ECU has to adjust to the different fuel mixture. Something like that I think. I really don't have a clue more than that though.

The ECU in modern cars should "adjust" in about 5 minutes. If you have a scanner you can watch the fuel trims change on the fly. It doesn't take very long.

Greetings, Coaster!

We think the figure is something like a 20-25% reduction in fuel economy when using E85. In maryland, there is only 4 gas stations that sell it, and none of them are in Baltimore. Ashen did the original internet search, but I don't know what he did to fid the locations.

www.e85fuel.com has a map of e85 in US/Canada if your looking flex fuel.

I went up to Ohio about a week ago (all three Northern Kentucky counties have nothing but E10 RFG in all their gas stations) and found a station that served straight gas. I filled up with it, and I'm going to run a few tanks and see if it's worth the extra ten mile drive. At this rate I'm getting a ~10% improvement, although I'll have to verify it at the pump.

If it really is 10%, then I'll be going 550 miles instead of 500 miles on the same amount of gas--and at a considerably lower cost, actually (Northern Kentucky gas is about 10 cents more expensive than gas in Ohio despite lower state taxes because of E10 RFG...)

Lamebums isn't the only one who thinks the FE hit is much higher than it should be. Some have much better statistical data to back it up, too. It is generally rejected because there doesn't seem to be a physical mechanism that would cause FE to change a bigger % than the energy content of the fuel. However...

If the oxygen content of the fuel is enough to improve emissions, and the air fuel ratio is controlled closed loop on the oxygen sensor in the exhaust, then manifold pressure has to decrease to maintain the same power level. This would cause increased throttling losses.

I just ran a tank of straight gas through my car--I got 58.4 MPG instead of ~51-52 I've been pulling the last few times. That's about a 16% increase.

I'm going to run at least two more tanks before I come to any final conclusions, but I filled up at the same station and the same pump twice.

Hmm. Innerestin. I just found out that as of Jan 1/08 ALL gasoline sold in Manitoba is ethanol blended, winter or otherwise. Guess I'll never know the pleasures of straight gas.

E10 may very well be a ripoff. I really don't know. Until 1/1/08 some gas here in Missouri was 10% ethanol and some was straight gas. Now (as of 1/1/08) its all 10% ethanol except for those stations that sell E85. I'm personally a big fan of E85 IF IT IS PRICED RIGHT. I had the FlexTek conversion system installed on my car a couple of years ago and for awhile I used E85 regardless of price and it was more expensive per mile driven. Lately I've been using E10 because that's the closest thing to straight gas I can buy. I used to get about 35 MPG with E85 and around 41 - 42 MPG on gas. I have refined my hypermiling techniques and on my last tank of E10 I got 48+ MPG. It has been awhile since I used E85 and I usually have to go thru 3 or 4 recalibrations of the scangauge II when I switch fuels before it is accurate again (of course the miles driven divided by the gallons of fuel used is always accurate when the manual calculation is done). The last time I estimated what my cost per mile (CPM) would be withE85 as opposed to gas E85 was cheaper per mile. In the near future I'm going to switch back to E85 and I will let everyone know which fuel I find to be cheaper per mile with my refined hypermiling techniques. Right now I'm trying to establish myself in the mileage logs.

I wish Wayne would add an E85 class to the logs. Are you listening Wayne?

Thanks!

The ongoing test of corn meth-E10 fuel versus regular gas test has logged nearly 6,000 miles since it started and includes over a dozen fill-ups in the past four months.

The link is in my sig as "See the truth about 10 percent ethanol..."

The choice is clear.




I could make a drinking game out of listening to a GM executive's speech.

Every time ethanol is mentioned, take a drink.

If a mild-hybrid vehicle is mentioned, take a drink.

If the Chevy Volt is mentioned, take two drinks.

If they vow to lead in fuel economy, take three drinks.

If the Tahoe/Yukon hybrid is mentioned, finish the beer.

If the Escalade hybrid is mentioned, shotgun a beer. (In case you don't know how to shotgun a beer: This is done by cutting a small hole in the lower side of a beer can, then delicately opening the top. Suck on the hole. The beer ends up in you really quickly. :))


Any takers? LOL.

It's over, I no longer have access to straight gas :(....My one and only station that always advertised ethanol free gas has now converted. Hopefully I can maintain at least 40mpg...*sniffle.

I could make a drinking game out of listening to a GM executive's speech.

...

Any takers? LOL.


Umm...yes. :) I have but one life to live, and I shall do my part to drive up the price of ethanol for the good of us all. (Even if it doesn't really work that way.)

maybe i'm getting that mix, cause the last month, trying hard and still can't pass the 30mpg avg... :(

Check to see when winter mix fuels come around in your area.

Mills Fleet/Farm

sells 100% Gasoline, in Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Illinois, maybe North Dakota.

You have this chain near you?

Biron, it doesn't sell 100% gas here in MN. You can't buy the stuff here in MN and it hasn't been available for some time.

Biron, it doesn't sell 100% gas here in MN. You can't buy the stuff here in MN and it hasn't been available for some time.

Well come to Hudson, WI. Not sure about Minnesota,
but Mills Fleet and Farm has a exception from the State of Wisconsin in its straight Unleaded ONLY, 10% is in the Mid range. Premium is premium :rolleyes:.

Why? Because older Lawn equipment, and Farm equipment cannot run on E10 or E15. I know this as for we had an 1972, Front loader IH 1466, Gasoline powered, and a Ford 8240 8 Wheeled Tractor when I was growing up and they told my father he should not use Ethanol blended fuels, even E10 for it will destroy the internal workings of the IH. So, we always went to Fleet Farm. Maybe they changed, I don't think so. If in doubt ask the attendant :)

So in Hudson, Wisconsin, I guarantee it is straight gasoline.

Perhaps they have an except in Minnesota too... All I know, is wen you buy Mill's most of the money stays in Wisconsin. So... yeah... its good for our economy :D Not to the Netherlands, Not to some corporate tax haven in Dubai

I know about the WI exemptions but the Fleet I used to fill at religiously before trying Shell, then finally settling on Costco has always had 10% Ethanol in their regular gas. They do ask if motor oil is intended for farm use when you buy it, and I believe the kerosene is also priced differently if it is for farm use.

Apparently I can't find conventional gasoline in my area. According to this (http://www.miamiherald.com/458/story/509965.html) article all of South Florida has transitioned over to E10 by now. I haven't seen a gas pump without an E10 sticker in ages.

I can't remember if the gas station I'd been using sold E10 or conventional. It was a Citgo, but now it's a Chevron. Pisses me off because I have a Citgo gas card. I went to fill up a week ago or so and realized that they had changed their logos. Funny, because I walk in there everyday to buy cigarettes. Shows how much I pay attention... or maybe I was just in denial up until the point I was about to slip my gas card into the pump. :eyebrow:

This E10 stuff is really awful in my opinion. Supposedly we pay the same price for less gasoline? How is that right? :confused: And what about all the people, including myself, who own vintage cars that were never designed to run on E10? No wonder my poor VW won't idle! :eek: :mad: I can remember now, a few months ago my mechanic was telling me about older cars coming in with problems because of this E10 nonsense.

Bastards! :Banane24:

I can't find any around here either

I just found ONE station around here with no ethanol. Texas requires labels for anything over 1%, and there are no labels. In fact, there's a hand written sign saying "no ethanol". We'll see how it pans out. I filled up there this morning.

I have said before that all stations here in Missouri are mandated to add 10% ethanol to gas. This weekend the Kansas City Star ran an article about the method used to mix the two fuels. It is called "splash blending". They have found, in some cases, the mix is 70/30 instead of the 90/10 it is supposed to be. A 70/30 mix would really put a crimp in your fuel mileage.

Splash blending apparently does not mix the two fuels very thoroughly.

I'm still suspicious of the stations with the handwritten "no ethanol" signs. I'm sure they are telling the truth but I just don't trust some people. Like the splash blending thing.

I have filled up at the same gas station for over 2 yrs now. I know the guy who owns the place. If its open he is in there since he is the only employee. The guy opens at 5 and closes at 8pm. Now thats a work ethic. Long story short buy your stuff from people you know and trust.

I have said before that all stations here in Missouri are mandated to add 10% ethanol to gas. This weekend the Kansas City Star ran an article about the method used to mix the two fuels. It is called "splash blending". They have found, in some cases, the mix is 70/30 instead of the 90/10 it is supposed to be. A 70/30 mix would really put a crimp in your fuel mileage.

Splash blending apparently does not mix the two fuels very thoroughly.
I'd like to know how you get 50+mpg out of a Mystique with that bad gas!

I'd like to know how you get 50+mpg out of a Mystique with that bad gas!

E10 doesn't seem to have that big an impact. My last tank was only 47mpg. I'm not sure if it's all because the weather has turned cooler or I may have gotten some of the higher "bad blend" stuff. I can use E85 (I had the conversion kit installed) but have not used any in almost a year because I wanted to compete with gas. On the next FE challenge I will switch to E85.

On the next FE challenge I will switch to E85.

I'm running E85 this challenge. At least with E85 you get an official fueleconomy.gov rating, unlike E10.

At first i liked the smell of the exhaust ,which smells like 20 hot deep fryers running in a confined space, but now I hate it. Plus the insanely low cruising range of a tank of gas, strange engine idles and stalls, and questionable fuel quality causes me to dislike the fuel overall.

good luck i've had similar results from E10 except I can't achieve a 200% over EPA tank like I could before, of course that could be the cooler weather.

It used to be that in the winter, Denver and the Colorado rockies would all be running e10 during the months of october to march. Now, every station has a sticker stating that "this fuel may be oxygenated, and contain up to 10% ethenol at all times".

I don't think there's a single place that sells straight gas in Denver any more.

Without real gas I would never be able to get above 53 MPG. My absolute highest with E10 is 52.098. Real gas was in the tank every time I got *anything* higher than that.

There's a station up the road from my house that says they sell straight gas. I may stop on by for a tank after this fresh tank goes kaput.

You haven't shared this with me before. :) Where do I find this station, I'd like to run some tanks of regular gas, and its always nice to support businesses that do the right thing.