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anyone have confirmation of this ?

Hi Vooch:

___55 highway is a bit optimistic on the 08 EPA but lower 50’s may be within reach. See the following for more details …

2007 LA Auto Show Wrap-up (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7338)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

the 103kw TDI gets 5.9l/100k vs. 8.3l/100k for the 2.0T FSI in Germany that suggests only a 20-25% boost in gas milage for the TDI vs. VW's current offering. i reckon that's about 40 HWY - how do they get to 'mid 50's' ?

Hi Vooch:

___The next gen 2.0L TDI slated for the US is the exact engine that will power the new VW TDI’s overseas plus the new NOx/PM emissions tech. That is the only difference between the 2.0 we will see here and the one they will see in Europe.

___As to how they are going to get there, have you read the Honda Civic 2.2L iCDTi review (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6526)? The 2.2L iCDTi is 2 generations ahead of the old 1.9L TDI’s the US is familiar with and the upcoming VW 2.0L TDI is another generation ahead of the iCDTi in that review! By all appearances, ramping up injector pressures with multiple injections via Piezo electric action, adding an intake swirl/constrictor for low, mid and high speed operation and the new VVT tech is increasing the efficiency of these monsters in lockstep. The neat thing is they (Audi/VW, BMW, Ford/Peugeot, GM/Opel, Honda and MB) are achieving even higher performance, lower emissions before the after treatment and another step change increase in FE all the while running even lower compression ratios reducing NVH. **** near magic and after you drive one of these modern miracles, you will wonder why it took so long to get these excellent engines into the US!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wayne, you're making me drool again. :p

It still burns me up that we can't get that car you reviewed over here... What incredible potential! I'm really excited to see what we get with the new Jettas but I'm still having trouble getting past my concern about their electrical issues of the past? I don't think I'd have any concerns with a Honda...

Wayne - are you suggesting that the new 2.0TDI will have approx. a 4 l/100km rating (euro method) ?


That would truely be amazing ! A 103 inch wheelbase car (Jetta) w/ some 240 ft lbs. of torque getting such awesome MPG

A 4l / 100km rating is very good, probably out of reach for a 2.0 TDI Jetta. I would guess the new TDI will be similar to the current 2.0 TDI and 2.2 i-CTDi: Low 7's (l/100km) in the city and mid 5's on the highway, which would be around 33/44 miles per US gallon. Somebody from VW originally said 40/60 but I think that's optimistic unless they have some major magic going on somewhere. A good hypermiler should be able to extract much more than that though. The engine probably has close to the same potential for high mpg as the i-CTDi that Wayne tested, likely a little lower because of tighter emissions requirements.

Sean, the Mk 5's (current Jetta/Rabbit) are supposedly better than the Mk 4's (previous Jetta/Golf) but there is clearly still room for improvement. Hopefully the Mk 6's will be another step in the right direction. Many of the common issues on the Mk 4's seem to be caused by over-enthusiastic cost cutting. Poor solder is sometimes a culprit, window regulators using plastic clips instead of metal led to the commonly mentioned power window problems, and I think the popular 1.8T / VR6 coil pack problems started to come up when VW decided to go with a new supplier. I know much less about the Mk5's because I don't own one, but from what I've read, there seems to be much less of the penny pinching problems. Germans do, however, often like to make things more complicated than they need to be, which probably leads to some problems. Even in my car, I see many sensors, switches, and assemblies that seem to be oddly placed or not even present on American or Asian cars.

My biggest hesitation with the new TDI and emissions systems would be clueless dealers. I have confidence that my dealer will get on top of things very quickly once they see how things work, but there are way too many dealers who still don't know how to work on the 1.9 TDI, which has been around in various forms for around 10 years. I really think VW of America should be trying to figure out how to fix their service departments. If VW's service departments were on par with Toyota's, I believe VW's reliability ratings would go from near the bottom to about average.

I'm getting too excited here. I need a break.

Thanks for the info, Mike. :) I know a fair bit about VW's early history (I'm a Beetle nut ;)), and they had fantastic service early on. They knew it was supremely important for survival in a new market. In fact, it was their policy to have enough parts on hand to construct two complete VW Beetles from scratch. Coupled with solid engineering (and OVERengineering) they had a winning combination that proved to be the foundation of a hugely successful company.

I really wish they would return to those early values.

Regardless, I'm still excited to see how well this new Jetta is constructed and what reliability is like.

Hi Mike:

___The VW reps in LA said to expect high 40's to mid 50's on the 08 EPA.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

High 40's to mid 50's would be amazing if they can get it. That is a big improvement over their current engines.

High 40's to mid 50's would be amazing if they can get it. That is a big improvement over their current engines.

I have the current Jetta (06 5 speed wife's car) and 50 MPG is very achievable on the highway. If the new Jetta is rated anywhere near 50, then 55-60 MPG is probobly attainable on the highway.

The current Jetta TDI is only rated at 37 on the highway from the EPA. It is very easy to beat the EPA with TDI's, though. Getting over 50 mpg on the highway with the upcoming engine should not be a problem, but seeing an EPA rating that high would really impress me.

Wayne -

mid 50's HWY MPG on the '08 EPA cycle means over 60 for us still used to the old EPA numbers.

Imagine, a large car ( 103 inch wheelbase ) with the ability to cruise autobahn speeds scoring those kind of numbers.


What will the Detroit lobbyists do about that ?

Tonight at the Audi/VW dinner Wayne and I had a chance to talk to a VW manager and he informed us that mid 40's is optimistic for an '08 EPA rating.

HWY ?

Combined ?

He said that combined will be lower than mid 40's. While he couldn't give a direct answer as the testing has not be completed yet on the '08 EPA cycle, I got the idea that he was expecting a combined in the high 30's.

Combined in the high 30's using '08 EPA - that works out to say 45 combined old EPA.................that is about 70% better than the gas model.


Could I extrapolate and figure that my combined MPG will be 56 (33 * 1.7) once they put the same engine in a Passat Wagon ?

Hi Vooch:

___The upper-level manager did not really hint at anything in the 30’s but simply stated mid 40’s to low 50’s would be optimistic. It will do 65 + for most here as it is more fuel efficient then the 1.9’s while being far more powerful and cleaner as well.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wow 40s in a jetta I wonder what the rabbit would get.

Hi Koreberg:

___I asked about both the Rabbit and the Golf using the 2.0L TDI. He looked back at me and smiled :)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

...
Could I extrapolate and figure that my combined MPG will be 56 (33 * 1.7) once they put the same engine in a Passat Wagon ?


I'm getting 59-61MPG (imperial, about 48-50mpg US) at the moment in my 1.9TDi Passat (the 2.0TDi engine is better?), and I've only just started looking into this hypermiling stuff, so probably doing everything wrong. Traffic is starting to get bad again due to heavy rain so my MPG is bound to drop again.

As per this thread:

http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8131

I read somewhere that trying to do forced-autostop (FAS) is bad for the turbo when restarting the engine by putting it into gear. Is this something I should avoid? What is the best alternative to use?

-- Edit:

(I should add it's a 115bhp PD-engine)

There is often confusion with the US vs UK MPGs. Many people don't realize that the Imperial (UK) gallon is 20% bigger than the US gallon, and so we get lots of claims about these very high MPG cars available in Europe.
It could be 55MPG UK gallons, which is 45.6 MPG US. If you look at similar VW TDI cars sold in the UK http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/
you'll see that a US MPG in the 40s would seem reasonable as a highway MPG (and probably a combined MPG in the upper 30s).

dude - check out the 1.9TDI's on our site they all get 49-50 MPG - Id respectfully suggest that the new VW engine will be, say, 2-5% more efficient (7 speed gear box, FSI, and more) than works out to more than 50 MPG COMBINED !

Think about that 50 MPG actual in a 103 inch wheelbase 3,000 lb. station wagon or car - that puts to shame Detroit's whining about all the compromises needed to get to 35 fleet MPG !


Bring it On 1

Mike - didn't realize you have a Passat TDI


really jealous that the POHM's get such great engines - I'd love to be able to buy a US Passat with the 77kW TDI engine - I think its rated at 4.5L/100km

I don't think the new 2.0 TDI will come with the 7-speed DSG. That transmission can only handle 185 lb-ft of torque, far below what the 2.0 TDI will make.

I'd like to see a 7spd manual transmission. They can keep the close ratio all these 6spd transmissions seem to have and still have a tall final drive ratio. :D

lol Sean that would be wild to have a 7-speed manual, but we can always dream:D

I forgot but I saw this video of the 2009 Jetta TDI on youtube a while back. I'm impressed, the new engine sounds like a modern turbo diesel instead of the old rocks percolating sound. People think my engine is good but I always make sure to tell them it's two generations behind what's in Europe. Engines like the new TDI should really impress people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VntmPE7HxJQ

http://www.youtube.com/v/VntmPE7HxJQ

Great, thanks Wayne :)

Hi Mike:

___Click on edit of your post above and the code is all there.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Just visited the Portland Auto Show last night (which included their traveling Dieselution exhibit) and grabbed the latest brochure. The brochure does say they expect mid 40s city and mid 50s hwy, but was printed in 2007 and presumably that's based on the '07 EPA regime. 1999-2003 TDIs were rated at 42/49 (37/45 under the '08 specs) so it sounds like the new one will be about the same. Sounds great to me.

By the way, the brochure only claims that TDI engines will be available in the Jetta, Jetta wagon and Tuareg. NOT the Rabbit or the Beetle. Last night a VW rep confirmed to us that there are no plans for a TDI Rabbit in the US. :(. Looks like my Golf is going to further appreciate in value.

That is unfortunate. I'd rather have a Rabbit or Golf than a Jetta, moving large or bulky objects is much easier with a hatchback than a sedan. The Rabbit TDI would be on my list if I needed a new vehicle. The Rabbit 2.5 would not.

Mike - didn't realize you have a Passat TDI


really jealous that the POHM's get such great engines - I'd love to be able to buy a US Passat with the 77kW TDI engine - I think its rated at 4.5L/100km



Two Mikes in this thread now :-)

Last couple of tanks were 60.8, and 60.3 MPG (Imperial - US is ~48). I've just been using the basic techniques. I'm finding that the engine gets a bit coked up when I drive like that so I need to thrash it (100mph in 4th gear) for a minute or two once per tank to clear out the soot - the figures include this.

I also discovered the infamous electrical problem with Passats + A4s - if the drains get blocked in the battery plenum then water gets into the footwell and affects the electronics. I'm sorting this out myself rather than getting the garage to fix it (a bit of resoldering + perhaps drill a drain through the footwell). So a good idea for anyone with a 1998-2003 Passat or A4 is to remove the drain grommets before this happens.

VAG have launched a new car, under the SEAT label this time, called the SEAT Ibiza EcoMotion. It's basically the same as the Polo BlueMotion but slightly cheaper. When I finally retire my current car I'll try to replace it with either the Polo or the Ibiza (I really don't need the size of this Passat).

Mikemarsuk, where are these grommets located? I'm doing the timing belt/water pump on my girlfriends 2000 Jetta TDI next Friday, and might as well take care of this. She has had a bit of water in the passenger footwell.

PS - My girlfriend drives like a MANIAC (gas!, brakes!, gas!, brakes!, etc...) and still turns out 45mpg in her 100k+ TDI. I've never tried to push it, but I'm sure it would be more satisfying than my 2000 Altima.

One is underneath the battery, and the other is behind the brake master cylinder. I cleared them with a bit of wire (coat-hanger) without removing the battery, but for someone less impatient than myself the recommended way is to remove the battery which gives you much better access.

The following page describes the process:

(see step 8 which shows the positions of the grommets).

http://www.weirdlittlebiscuit.com/passat/leak/index.htm

His article describes how to clean the grommets, but that is only a temporary solution - the longer term solution would be to just take them out, so that it can't block up again in the future.



The following describes the electrical work necessary if the CCM was damaged (if the internal lights, power windows, remote locking, and alarm are misbehaving, this is probably why).

www.headfuzz.co.uk/vw_ccm

A garage (in the UK) would charge around £ 650 to do this work ($ 1300). = 6 hours labour plus parts.

Thanks for the good links, Mike! It looks like the layout is quite a bit different though... (for the A4 jetta the battery is in the front driver side and the master cyl res is in the engine bay) BUT, it looks like this area is the place to look. I already cleared debris out once, but now I can go in there with a little more grunt. Also, I'll have to clean up those wires. The alarm has been funky for a while so I shut it off, and the windows don't know whether to roll up or down when you use the switch. Not to mention the turn signal stalk went limp. LOVE VWs!

There is often confusion with the US vs UK MPGs. Many people don't realize that the Imperial (UK) gallon is 20% bigger than the US gallon, and so we get lots of claims about these very high MPG cars available in Europe.
It could be 55MPG UK gallons, which is 45.6 MPG US. If you look at similar VW TDI cars sold in the UK http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/
you'll see that a US MPG in the 40s would seem reasonable as a highway MPG (and probably a combined MPG in the upper 30s).

This is why I always convert the l/100km figure (well...sometimes. I have a fairly good feel for l/100km figures). It's a lot more accurate that way, although you still have different testing cycles. But at least you're not fighting the imperial gallons thing.

I have been a Ford man my whole life. I am new to hypermiling with my 2002 Focus and it will be a couple of years before I can swing a new car, but I got really excited when I heard about the new VW TDI. I went to the International Auto Show in Grand Rapids Mi. and talked to a VW dealer and he quoted me 45 city and 55 hwy. He seemed knowledgable and also told me the price difference from gas to diesel will be only about $1500. That's what excited me most. Can anybody confirm that price? Wayne? Anyway, thats way better than the $7000 difference Ford wants for their Powerstroke in their trucks. It makes the cost of diesel fuel moot when you only have to spend a little to save a lot. Not the case for a truck. I would have to drive a Powerstroke 11 years to recover the initial cost of the engine.

It is going to be difficult to guess at the TDI price preminun - $1,500 - $2,500 is a decent enough estimate- but the exact preminum doesn't really matter, becuase the resale value is so big.

But for a real shock, check out how much USED VW TDI's are worth !

Hi Savin$’s:

___The VW reps I have spoken with have told me to expect $2K and so far, it appears that will be the case? If Diesel were more in line with the price of gasoline as it should be this time of year, I can bet VW would be charging an even higher premium from whatever it will be so maybe there will be some sanity in the new vehicle diesel market yet.

___The HD P/U truck PowerStroke’s, Cummins and Duramax premium’s are absolutely unjustified as we have all seen :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wanye is correct - VW might charge more than $2k extra if the consumers are willing to pay.

Hi Vooch:

___The upper-level manager did not really hint at anything in the 30’s but simply stated mid 40’s to low 50’s would be optimistic. It will do 65 + for most here as it is more fuel efficient then the 1.9’s while being far more powerful and cleaner as well.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

If the new Jetta has over 50 MPG highway nunmbers, I am probably going to trade up to a sportwagon from my current 06 TDI sedan. If I do, if anyone here wants my old TDI let me know.

Hi Jud:

___I have the feeling an 06 Jetta TDI would not last long in the used car marketplace ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

This might have already been mentioned here, but the new Jettas averaged over 25 mpg in racing conditions in the Jetta TDI Cup: link (http://dieselforecast.com/ArticleDetails.php?articleID=481)

Has anyone looked at the drivetrain info they have up? 4th and 5th gears are almost identical for the TDI. Could this be a mistake? (link (http://www.vw.com/jettasportwagen/completespecs/en/us/#/show_all))

1st 3.77 (3.46)
2nd 2.09 (2.05)
3rd 1.32 (1.30)
4th 0.98 (0.90)
5th 0.98 (0.91)
6th 0.81 (0.76)
Reverse 4.55 (3.99)
Final I 3.45 (4.12)
Final II 2.76 (3.04)

Edit: disregard that, they use different final drives.

i group of us did drive one from seattle to san fransico and avg 53.6 mpg and we almost made it there just short by 10 miles.