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Got to looking at the air intakes on the Civic and Accord this weekend.

On the Civic, it has a air horn tucked up under the fender. The Accord has a hood if you will on the intake tube that brings in outside air along the lower front hood line.

I was hoping to beable to mod the Civic so it would draw more warm air in from under the hood. Dosent look like this is possible as its already doing this.

The Accord on the other hand might well allow me to warm up the intake air a bit more. Not that it will mean much in the summer months. But may well help it during the winter by pulling this little hood off and allowing warmer intake air.

Wayne have you looked at this on your Accord at all? Or already played with it?

Does the HAH have lean burn the same way the insight does?

I believe the thing with the civic intake is that even though it's under the hood, it's in a place where forward airflow keeps the intake charge relatively cool, so it could still benefit from the warmer air unless it is of an era that will offset those benefits by retarding timing.

Hi Psy:

___I had a good look at the intake of the PZEV last fall but it is so tightly integrated from the intake/filter box/MAF downstream, it would be a SOB to route a large enough WAI to it to make any difference if there was a difference? The Insight can ultimately use a WAI to trick the ECU into thinking it can run in lean burn for longer periods (widens the window) or if at all in much colder temps (40 degrees F and below, lean-burn does not exist w/out a WAI in most cases ;)). For a non-leanburn capable ICE like our Accord’s, I doubt it will have nearly the same FE effect. The Prius guys have done a lot of experimenting with WAI’s and have seen no increase in FE in colder temps when one was installed? I have to believe there is some benefit but it would be minimal at best in our Accord’s more then likely?

___SVOBoy, the AH is not a lean-burn capable ICE unfortunately. Psy and myself own std. K24 based Accord’s … One PZEV, the other a LEV.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

That stinks about no lean burn, you could always sell the k24 for some racer dork though, :p

Anyway, I doubt there would be a benefit if there is no lean burn on a vehicle as new as yours. For older hondas like my own there is a benefit, but for a different reason.

Either way, I can't wait to get a lean burn engine into my crx, :)

Hi SVOBoy:

___Hey, our K24’s might be the best mid-size power plants Honda has ever made! A few of its finer points … Lowest PZEV based emissions (Tier II/Bin2) besides the NG based Civic (even lower) and the PZEV based HCH-I/II’s (the same) on the planet, 0 - 60 in 9 flat w/ an Auto while pulling ~ 3,300 + #’s, and a 24/34 EPA with a lot more on the upside where that came from :D

___I do love this motor but would have loved the 2.2 iCDTi out of Europe in her for the FE. Maybe even the latest Atkinsonized 1.8 out of the non-hybrid Civic would do it justice although probably a touch over 10 to 60 given the weight?

___Another of my all time favorites is the HCH-I’s 1.3. Once you drive an HCH-I with lean burn, everything else except for an Insight at slower highway speeds and a Prius II or FEH around town is just ho hum. The iFCD of the HCH-I will simply camp at 75 - 80 mpg all day long at 50 - 55 mph in my short time behind the wheel of Tom’s. The HCH-II owners w/ their non-lean burn capable 1.3 are starting to show their stuff as well but my test drive experience was far from optimal. Just another reason I am so excited to hear from Tarabell about her latest endeavors with her practically brand new HCH-II.

___When you finally get a lean burn based ICE in that Civic of yours, you are going to remember it forever given what it will be capable of at steady cruise.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I did some testing with a WAI on the Civic for many many hours yesterday. And it was hot! Its not a deep study just some fast facts and a gut feeling. In my testing I saw a soild 1 mpg increase in FE. Im uploading a video now of the last run made in the weee hours of the morning. Its a 200 meg plus boring thing if there ever was one.

Ive posted this at Gassavors seeing that its more inline with there doctorin.
http://www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?p=13329#post13329

psy

Wayne, as soon as I find a d15z1, it's going in.

The neatest honda engine out now is the 1.2 8 valve L series they're putting in the honda jazz over in japan, gas mileage like woah!

I agree about the k24, but I wonder how the k24 head would do with a k20 block for mileage, but then again, swapping these newer engines is so pricey it's not worth it, not like the engine I got for myself for free, :p

I just replied to your post also, psy, great information, gives me hope for my own future testing when I get the superMID installed.

Hi Psy:

___Although I disagree with the doctrine statement, I will pass along a similar thought to you as I have mentioned to others here from time to time. You really should peak in your daily FE regiment before making solid statements about increased FE from HW. A WAI in the middle of an OK heat wave showing 140 + degree AIT’s allowing 1 + mpg? I can only hope but I have serious doubts. Remember the Prius info I posted? Those guys are gauging fuel consumption by the ml and have not seen anything of the sort in temps down into the 40’s in those. 1 - 2 mpg’s for $0.50 OEM in parts is too easy for a manufacturer to grab onto for CAFÉ’ let alone the marketing windfall of that easy a solution. I know Ford does test this type of HW solution more often then you would imagine and if they do, I can bet Honda, Toyota, GM, and DCC do as well.

___SVOBoy, the European Jazz 1.3 is the exact ICE as that in the hybrid both there and here in the states but its gearing is a mess. The Euro and Japanese 1.2 is a bit to slow without the FE of the 1.3 in the hybrid when looking at the 0 – 60 km/h times IIRC. I will look it up again tonight.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

*shrug* I can't keep up with the l series engines.

One person in particular has abused the wai on his integra over at gs and he states is does increase fe, though it kills power tremendously, which is why I doubt it will ever be put to use manufacturing wise. I think, like most things, a stock intake is a compromise between power, efficiency, and sound.

Hi SVOBoy:

One person in particular has abused the wai on his integra over at gs and he states is does increase fe, though it kills power tremendously, which is why I doubt it will ever be put to use manufacturing wise. I think, like most things, a stock intake is a compromise between power, efficiency, and sound.
___When we get into the FE discussion, how does the Acura owning individual's FE compare to those that really push tanks without? The WAI’s on the old Ford trucks where thermostatically controlled w/ a butterfly under the intake housing, weren’t they? If the auto manufacturers had a choice to install $0.50 worth of parts for 2 mpg, I bet they would have done it already given the pressure they are all under with a doubling of fuel prices over the last 3 years. NVH is not increase with such a mod but top end HP is indeed effected unless the intake was actively temperature controlled. The few Prius guys who pushed this in their Atkinson intake based automobiles show a minimal increase in FE at best, and even harmful at worst in far colder temps then mentioned above. All I would ask is that a bit more scientific study be conducted before making a proclamation is all. GS is filled with the HW/lubricant/fuel additive magic elixirs and for what its worth, increased FE is getting buried in the noise knowing what I have personally experienced.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

The acura owning individual pushes his FE very hard, and I will ask him to do some controlled testing now that he has a scangauge, but I do not think defaulting everything to the old "the industry knows everything" makes little sense.

Honda could put a wimpy engine in every car, or a taller fifth in ever car, but they don't because of performance, and I doubt they want to be known as the car company with a bunch of gadgets and crap. Their goal is to push a certain method of getting things done, not to squeeze every last drop (except on the insight).

I have posted on gs the ecu programming in relation to IAT, and it is very obvious that warmer is leaner, and that warmer kills power. And to me, it is also very obvious that people want to mash the pedal and not have to wait for a butterfly in the intake to switch over and for the engine to hesistate as it adjusts afrs and such.

Hi Psy:

___Although I disagree with the doctrine statement, I will pass along a similar thought to you as I have mentioned to others here from time to time. You really should peak in your daily FE regiment before making solid statements about increased FE from HW. A WAI in the middle of an OK heat wave showing 140 + degree AIT’s allowing 1 + mpg? I can only hope but I have serious doubts. Remember the Prius info I posted? Those guys are gauging fuel consumption by the ml and have not seen anything of the sort in temps down into the 40’s in those. 1 - 2 mpg’s for $0.50 OEM in parts is too easy for a manufacturer to grab onto for CAFÉ’ let alone the marketing windfall of that easy a solution. I know Ford does test this type of HW solution more often then you would imagine and if they do, I can bet Honda, Toyota, GM, and DCC do as well.

___SVOBoy, the European Jazz 1.3 is the exact ICE as that in the hybrid both there and here in the states but its gearing is a mess. The Euro and Japanese 1.2 is a bit to slow without the FE of the 1.3 in the hybrid when looking at the 0 – 60 km/h times IIRC. I will look it up again tonight.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wo WO

This isnt and wasnt a sci-fi study. I understand and have a good working knowledge of whats going on with the test. I never said it was a go go type thing. But I will stand by my 1 mpg increase as shown by the SG. I worked this for 10 hours. Many mirrored back to back runs on two diff. loops. I know there needs to be more work done. But the 1 mpg gain comes shineing thru in this battery of test.

There is alot going on in this r18a engine thats not understood. Heck Hondadata to date wont admit to even looking into or understanding the ecu.

I think this has some real winter possiblitys. More testing is needed along with understanding of the engine and its control systems.

Also I dont think this engine and control system are going to lend its self to proformance mods at all. In that same vein it well may not be a super duper hypermiler either.

We need more r18's in the game to see.

Here is a link to the last run i made in the very early morning hours. I was tired. It shows my basic tatics on how Ive been driving this car 90% of the time. Yes 10% as been another type of fun. I cant slow it down much more than this and hope to get anywhere.

Wayne i just dont think theres alot more in this mill to be gained and expect to get anywhere without completely reworking ones day and giving up on other facets of life. It seems to do and want to do what it was built for and you arent going to cheat it out of that.

I really wish more would show up with this car and start working with it. Its getting frustrating being the only one at this level attempting this kinda driving with it. And not getting anywhere,,, sooo to speak.

And i dont want to hear about the lead foot! Ive been very clear as to when ive bust the tach and enjoyed sprited driving. ive been lugging this car around to the point of bordem. With only a 3 to 5 mpg increase. nothing steller has happened. No inkling of steller. It will go on 0-20 M1 next oil change. It wont see a light oil fill. Thats BS IMO. And its tires have been kept at 44psi or a little less on the rears by either a digital gauge or by my 1960's pirrealie anolog vintage gauge that just blew out the bellows.

In all honesty Im starting to get very frustrated with the Civic. The Accords frustration lies in the wife driving it. She has never even set in the drivers seat in the Civic. And there for has never influanced the FE. its all mine and a few folks Ive let drive it,, and yes they drove the crap out of it. Which it does very well.

Im sorry i dont have a full detail of the SG vid. I just cant write it up. I feel the good HM'ers will know exacly whats going on and why.

http://www.psyshack.com/hm11.avi