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This is my first post, so let me start by saying "Hi!" to everyone.

I purchased a 2007 HCH II in June, and have been tracking my MPG. There seems to be a lot of debate over whether the "hybrid premium" is ever recovered. So I decided to do some calculations comparing the Hybrid to an EX, and I thought I'd share them:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p1lt00mYLQK1zaUvBGeZWfg

So far I'm very happy with my car. I'm currently working on what may be my best tank ever. My trip meter is currently sitting at 53.1 MPG, and it's *always* been about 2 MPG below my manual calculations. For manual calculations, I always fill to the first click only, so hopefully variations in fill level will be minimized.

Also, how do I put my car's MPG banner into my signature?

Thanks,
Dave

Hi Dave, and welcome.
I think everyone here appreciates a good table and graph. Nice work.

As far as the banner in the sig, try this:

http://www.cleanmpg.com/garage/images/524.png (http://www.cleanmpg.com/index.php?page=garage&displayunits=MPG(US)&viewcar=524)


It already has your carID in the link, so just copy/paste in your sig.
The URL tags link your banner to your mileage logs, which is fun.
For anyone else, just replace the 524 with your own carID.

Is your federal tax credit calculated properly? Is it a rduction of the final sum of the amount you pay, or is it something that you can only recoup in real terms at ~30c on the $?

The sheet makes sense, and is inline with that ive seen in the diesel analysis of higher initial cost vs. fuel savings. The only difference is that a diesel engine wont require a battery pack replacement that is in no way environmentally friendly, though in the meantime the diesel is putting out less tonnage but more particulates than a ga$$er.

Thanks for sharing the spreadsheet!

JMH

I think there is a lot of confusion between tax credits, and tax deductions. Tax credits are applied directly to your bottom line tax liability. Tax deductions, reduce your taxable income, and thus indirectly your tax liability.

Let's assume that someone is in the 25% tax brack, and has a tax liability of $13,000.00:

A $2100 tax *credit* would reduce their tax liability to $10,900.00.

A $2100 tax *deduction* would reduce their income by $2100, and since they're in the 25% tax bracket, that would decrease their tax liability by $2100 x 25% = $525.

I'm pretty sure that the $2100 is a tax *credit* so it should translate into a direct recovery of revenue. (Assuming your AMT liability is at least $2100 less than your normal tax liability).

The AMT is an alternative income tax, and technically you're supposed to calculate your taxes under both the normal income tax, and under the AMT and pay whichever is greater. Under the AMT, most deductions and credits allowed in the normal tax are disallowed.

So as long as your regular tax liability under the normal tax is greater than the AMT, your good to go right? Not really.

The tax credit for hybrid vehicles cannot be greater than the difference between your normal income tax liability and your AMT tax liability. So if you calculate your income taxes and find that you owe $13000 under the normal tax, and $12500 under the AMT, then your maximum hybrid vehicle tax credit would be $500.

In my case, I'm single, so the income threshold at which my AMT approaches my normal tax is somewhere over $100K per year, so I made the assumption that I would receive the full tax credit.

For dual-income families, the chance of lose some or all of the tax credit to the AMT is (unfortunately) much higher.

Hi Dsharp:

___The current Alternative fuel/hybrid Federal incentives are indeed a credit vs. a deduction as was offered pre 05.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

They say that you need to do a lot of driving to recover the cost of the hybrid premium. If you do a lot of driving, I would say the hybrid is definately the way to go as you are also doing your part to conserve gas! I would not say that I am a hypermiler but just pay attention to how I am driving. I probably do over 50% highway driving and I am getting an average of 34.2 MPG. I know that if I practiced more hypermiling techniches I could increase that as well. Also, when I first got it, since I was getting better milage, I would drive 75+ on the expressway on trips and I could tell driving that fast was bringing down my average MPG. I have since slowed down and usually don't go over 70 and have seen my MPG increase.

Hi All:

___You may want to look over the following?

Hybrid vs. Non Hybrid comparisons. (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/f-hybrid-vs-non-hybrid-comparisons-50.html/)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Whether a hybrid is "justified" is such an incredibly touchy subject, and in my opinion completely pointless. Most people have no problem "justifying" the larger engine option with the 12 speaker stereo with rear DVD and NAV, 12 way power adjustable leather seats, and extra large wheels with expensive sport rubber all around. Are those options questioned on an economic basis? No, only whether or not one can afford it. None of that will ever save you any money. Now, along come these new-fangled hybrid vehicles and everybody goes "oh, that's stupid it will never pay for itself unless you drive way more than the average person!" Nevermind that it might pay for itself at all unlike the other crap that people will shell out thousands of dollars to get. The argument makes a lot of noise but it's pretty worthless in and of itself.

Hi Tim:

___I will take a different tact wrt the hybrid premium. With 19” rims and tires vs. 16”, an 8-speaker system vs. a 4 or a sunroof vs. none, you do receive a tangible benefit that only you can decide if it was worth it or not. In the case of the hybrid drivetrain, it is for the FE, sometimes the emissions, sometimes the gauge package (if there is a difference), sometimes the performance although most hybrids have lesser capabilities and/or EV mode capability from those hybrids that offer that capability. The FE is where there is a payback as you do not just purchase a vehicle because it is called a “hybrid”. There has to be a benefit and that benefit wrt a hybrid is the $’s in fuel cost savings that make it worth it or not. I think most of the driving public looks at a hybrid in a similar light?

___Think back to the 05 Accord Hybrid. More power, worse emissions, similar FE and no sunroof for $10K more then the I4 Accord. It was not a success. The 08 HiHy vs. Highlander Sport (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/hybrid-vs-non-hybrid-comparisons/t-toyotas-08-highlander-sport-awd-vs-08-hihy-awd-cost-and-features-analysis-6827.html) has an almost $5K premium w/ the non-hybrid offering 20 vs. 26 mpg (combined for each) and ULEV-II vs. PZEV. I do not belive the 08 HiHy will be a success either.

___So how do you measure the worth of the differences? The 20 – 26 mpg and 30% less GHG emissions can only be seen at the pump by most. The PZEV vs. ULEV-II is all of a $150.00 upcharge from Honda and Toyota does not charge anything more for PZEV cert. in CA.? The RX 400h and HCH-II are worth the premium and especially the HCH-II if you qualify for the tax credit but the AH and HiHy would not be my choice. The FEH is worth the premium if you qualify for its $3K tax credit. Take the tax credit away and it too is looking like an awfully expensive badge that cannot be justified for what it offers over and above the non-hybrid. I did not take resale into account with any of the above which could sway the premium back into the hybrids favor but seeing used $30K when new 05 AH’s in the market place for similar prices as the non-hybrids is not promising whereas the Prius-II at darn near what one paid is definitely worth it!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Whether a hybrid is "justified" is such an incredibly touchy subject, and in my opinion completely pointless. Most people have no problem "justifying" the larger engine option with the 12 speaker stereo with rear DVD and NAV, 12 way power adjustable leather seats, and extra large wheels with expensive sport rubber all around. Are those options questioned on an economic basis? ........... Nevermind that it might pay for itself at all unlike the other crap that people will shell out thousands of dollars to get. The argument makes a lot of noise but it's pretty worthless in and of itself.

You make a good point and I'm not gonna be the one to question anybody's choice of a hybrid. IMO the fuel cost payback for the the hybrid option will probably determine when (or whether) hybrid technology goes from being a niche technology to a mass market technology. It makes sense that the bigger the fuel cost payback the greater the dollar value of the technology to buyers. If automakers can charge more for hybrid technology than it costs them to design/build/install it, bet on it being in most new cars.

I like seeing Wayne's breakdowns on the costs of the cars, though they leave me with the impression that the automakers are forcing hybrid owners to buy a lot of extraneous high profit margin equipment.

BTW: I do have trouble justifying the options you listed and I don't buy them, does that mean I get to be the one to question your justfication for buying a hybrid?:p

Hi Chuck:

___Just to give you an idea as to how wrong it could be to purchase/own a Cavalier/Cobalt or Aveo vs. a Yaris, Fit, Corolla, Civic or HCH-II when considering the TCO (True Cost to Own) …

Year|Make|Model|Trim|MSRP|Edmund’s TCO ($/mile)
07|Toyota|Yaris|3-Dr. Hatch|$11,150|$0.40
07|Toyota|Corolla|CE|$14,405|$0.43
||||
07|Honda|Fit|Base|$13,850|$0.40
07|Honda|Civic|DX Coupe|$14,810|$0.41
07|Honda|Civic|Hybrid|$22,600|$0.46
||||
07|Chevrolet|Aveo|Special Value|$9,995|$0.39
07|Chevrolet|Cobalt|LS Coupe|$13,675|$0.45

___Anyone purchasing a stripped 2-door Chevrolet Cobalt over a loaded HCH-II for another $0.01/mile in their pocket would be absolutely out of their mind. The same could be said of anyone taking a stripped Aveo (Special) over a base Fit for a savings of $0.01/mile. The safety package alone makes the HCH-II and Fit worth thousands more then the two stripped Chevrolet’s let alone everything else that goes along with them.

___The numbers are downright silly to even think of the lowest cost up front when you consider the purchase, taxes, insurance, maintenance and especially the nasty depreciation hit of the Chevrolet’s.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

...........

___Anyone purchasing a stripped 2-door Chevrolet Cobalt over a loaded HCH-II for another $0.01/mile in their pocket would be absolutely out of their mind. The same could be said of anyone taking a stripped Aveo (Special) over a base Fit for a savings of $0.01/mile. The safety package alone makes the HCH-II and Fit worth thousands more then the two stripped Chevrolet’s let alone everything else that goes along with them.


Alas, my experience was that Fit's were only available in packages costing a couple thousand more than base, but Aveo's could be bought for less than the base. The available Fits were about $6K (i.e. 60%) more than Aveo out the door. I liked the Fit a little better because of the "magic" back seat, but my figures didn't cost justify the purchase. Call me absolutely crazy, I guess.:)


.........

___The numbers are downright silly to even think of the lowest cost up front when you consider the purchase, taxes, insurance, maintenance and especially the nasty depreciation hit of the Chevrolet’s.



Are you pointing out that TCO is an attempt to capture these add'l factors? TCO seems like a good approach so long as you work the numbers around a little to fit your individual situation. For example, you might know how to work on a conventional ICE, but not a hybrid which could lead to differences in maintenance costs not captured by Edmunds' assumptions of shop maintenance.

All the best,

Rich

Hi Rich:

___I used the 07 $9,995 Base Aveo in the price comparison. You cannot buy a safety package or OEM A/C on the base let alone the $2K extra for LS which still cannot be equipped with any kind of safety package. Yes, it would be completely silly to consider the Aveo Base vs. a Base Fit let alone an LS or higher optioned up Aveo with a much higher $/mile calc.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

When they build a hybrid for me I will have one. Until then I will ZOOM ZOOM.

And if one has to have tax help to purchase a hybrid. They are indeed in over there head. The tech. needs to stand on its own two feet. Not my wallet.